Ashura day rained blood from sky in England + Evidence

[Dubious]

Lunar year is 354 days but solar year is 365 days.

and the Chronicles was talking about which one?

even then 5 yrs is a big differences....its not like a few weeks apart that can be adjusted by saying lunar and solar

 

[Resurrection5782]

and the Chronicles was talking about which one?

even then 5 yrs is a big differences....its not like a few weeks apart that can be adjusted by saying lunar and solar

Hijra (Islam) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Imam hossein (saa) martyred 61.7 years after Prophet hijrat and begining AH date so 622+661.7 ±684
That's it.

 

[Dubious]

Hijra (Islam) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Imam hossein (saa) martyred 61.7 years after Prophet hijrat and begining AH date so 622+661.7 ±684
That's it.

how do you get a .7 yr? dont you have the exact date / yr? you can use a calender converter by just googling...

 

[Resurrection5782]

Begining of date was 622 ok?
622+61=683
It was in the first month of fall so .7 .
In a year there are 12 monthes so 61+622 can be 684 or 685 however I don't know maybe historian was wrong in some monthes.

 

[FaujHistorian]

Power struggle was ugly back then, as it is now.

Imam Hussain's tussle with Yazid should be viewed from the same angle.

As this rush to control the government is nothing new.

It started immediately after the death of Mohammad pbuh.

Many Muslims sugar coat stuff.

But the reality is that hunger for power was there all the time.

That power struggle resulted in petty bickering between Umar and Ali, then Ali and Usman.

then it took turn for the worse during Jange Jamal.


And unfortunately it didn't end after the death /assassination of Khulafah Rashideen.

It continued on and on and on and on.


Any blood that flowed in every power struggle be it Jange jamal, or in Karbala was the blood of innocent people caught in cross fire.

Believing that red colored water will rain down 10,000 miles while bunch of power hungry men kill each other?

This is beyond superstition, it is just madness.

An effort to put holy water on the petty fights to gain power and money.

Sorry to say.

 

[Resurrection5782]

Power struggle was ugly back then, as it is now.

Imam Hussain's tussle with Yazid should be viewed from the same angle.

As this rush to control the government is nothing new.

It started immediately after the death of Mohammad pbuh.

Many Muslims sugar coat stuff.

But the reality is that hunger for power was there all the time.

That power struggle resulted in petty bickering between Umar and Ali, then Ali and Usman.

then it took turn for the worse during Jange Jamal.


And unfortunately it didn't end after the death /assassination of Khulafah Rashideen.

It continued on and on and on and on.


Any blood that flowed in every power struggle be it Jange jamal, or in Karbala was the blood of innocent people caught in cross fire.

Believing that red colored water will rain down 10,000 miles while bunch of power hungry men kill each other?

This is beyond superstition, it is just madness.

An effort to put holy water on the petty fights to gain power and money.

Sorry to say.

Nuts dont off topic here.
U are talking about Prophet grandson that prophet many times kissed him and said some foolish people will martyr you. U are not talking about two men that fough fo power.
Before u have said u are atheists so dont post nonsense about grandson of prophet.
Know who u are talking about.

 

[Secur]

Where do the rights of Others stop & the rights of the Society begin ?

Where is that fine line ?

And how would one determine that ?

And why does one use that & that particular barometer or determinant ?

The answer is that the Society decides these things for itself for, purely from an Academic Point of View, these are nothing but things agreed upon either unconsciously so or consciously so !

Therefore if the Society can decide a cut-off point at X why can it not decide at Y ?



I'm not a Koranists in the literal sense of the word; I just advocate Koran & Rationality which isn't really a call for ignoring other interpretations or even the Hadith just treating them as Historical Evidence as part of the best available Commentary on the Koran not an addition to the Koran itself !

And I never said or implied 'treat Religion as Governance'; I said treat Religious Paradigms for what they are !

Which is to say if the Swiss Civil Code is a Legal Paradigm what do you think Islamic Jurisprudence is ?

If the advocacy of the institutionalization of the Swiss Civil Code neither infringes upon the rights of others nor does it pronounce us to cry everything from 'discrimination' to 'fascism' in the same breath, I wonder why the call for Islamic Jurisprudence induces such a different response when they are both Legal Paradigms by nature !

As far the percentage of the Zakat or the timing of the Prayer is concerned you must consider a set of things !

Firstly we're not contradicting God here we're simply giving our interpretations of what they are therefore the Finality of the Message doesn't really apply here & whatever inherent inflexibility you're implying here seems paradoxical in the face of the presence of dozens upon dozens of sects even within these sects & the many varied interpretations that come with it !

Secondly the Society has to consider where it draws the Line ? What does it decide to be in the domain of the Personal & what in the domain of the Societal which is to say just as the Society can decide that a Society has Rights over a Family whereby it reserves the right to tell what a Parent can or cannot do & a plethora of other such examples, it can decide once more here !

Thirdly there is a huge spectrum of opinions on what the Zakat Percentage is or isn't & what the timing of the Prayers are or are not & after you've decided which of the two or whether none of the two or even both of the two, the Society is going to decide what should or should not be Institutionalized you put it to vote !

As for the element of Violence you're talking about that is a common denominator wherever you force something down people's throat whether it be in case of a particular language, ethnicity, geography or religion & that & that alone is what is the reason behind it whereas everything else is a symptom of the reaction....an intensifier if you will !

Therefore don't shove down anything people's throat - Ask them !

Asking them what they want is the essence of the Democratic Principle !

Give them a choice to choose or to refuse !

If you're looking for unanimity of opinions then I ask - Why ?

Why look for unanimity here where everyone's on board when such a consideration is never applied to anything else ?

What will or what won't be decided would be done so based upon the respective bargaining powers of the ayes & the nays & the environment of consensus or pluralism here - Give & Take !



That confusion comes when we start seeing Oriental things from a Western Lens without thoroughly considering the rhyme & meter of the dynamics that each faced !

Consider this - There has always been Pluralism in Islam interspersed with Tyranny & yet never Secularism - Why ?

Because we never had an ecclesiastical order to induce such a reaction & because in Islam the Spiritual & the Worldly was never ripped asunder in much the same manner !



I've raked my brain about this for some time now !

Maybe @Oscar would agree with me on this ?

Maybe not !

Answer me , one thing , mate .

The society has done it in the past , it is doing so today , it will continue the same in the future . Where's the change , mate ? You would consider just the conscious determination and subsequent enforcement of " democratic principles " to be near that ? I have been trying to make the point that religion is a freaking personal business and should remain as such , because whenever enforcement happens on a societal scale by the wishes of a few ( never on democratic principles as the history ) tells us , it has either lead to anarchy,chaos,confusion or downright bloodshed,civil war - if the past is any indication . The changes you propose , mate , are just not possible with the current mindset and the sectarian strife/differences of Muslims - these people aren't even ready to listen/tolerate others let alone come to argue on things and agree and believe in give and take . I am not denying that its not good as a hypothetical solution but practically , it doesn't appear practical unless Muslims get real " enlightenment " and not what they consider today , outsourcing all their free and critical thinking powers to Mullah or the God's viceroy . It hasn't been done in the history so I am not seeing the sudden change .

Well , I have no problem in anyone being anything or following whatever they want - I am too liberal to bother with that stuff , but still what you mention constitutes a Quranist - even taking Hadith as a historical reference and not considering it a general guideline and a detailed manual for performance . So do not worry , unlike a Mullah , I do not have the power and authority to issue a kill fatwa - effective immediately

Then , I believe you consider the Swiss Civil Code , the same as Sharia - open to changes as the change occurs ? Open for legislators to make alteration based on the modern day needs ? Not a lot of Muslims will agree on that - I told you they do not even want the forensics to take part in investigations of the crimes and their punishment governed by the Islamic law . It isn't admissible , you see , mate , they still need a total of four people to witness the " foreplay " and the " intercourse " . Come one , optimistic Armstrong . What sort of people are you talking about ? You think they be willing to reform as you think ? Never !

I know we will not be contradicting or going against God's message for he has left a lot of things for interpretation by the common man , which means the permission/denial of a lot of things aren't to be decided based on a couple of Hadiths or the interpretation to be decided by a couple of elders who have some divine knowledge of religion and the others were born with no intellect . The paradoxical inflexibility I talked of , is there , it has just transferred itself to different sects and is being controlled from them . I mean from the beginning , you always had to take the help of a senior most educated wise person and later his students , either it be the starting schools of thought or sects . Its the way , we have always run this religious business and we sure as hell aren't going to change the way . Ecclesiastical order and the grand importance of few leaders/scholars/generations of this and that were always present , we just lived in an illusion of deciding for ourselves even though all we were doing was praising them and agreeing with them and subconsciously thinking hey we got a say in these matters . This wasn't what Islam was supposed to be , but thats what it turned out to be .

Why am I not commenting on the limits you talk about , why am I not talking about where to draw the line , why not a single mention of " what should the society/state interfere in and what should it leave alone for people to decide " , why not a word on democratic principles and how it should take place ? Because , I do not see it happening looking at the history of Muslims .

You raked your brains and are certain of that , but the reality on ground is different . Answer me in Naswarville .

 

[FaujHistorian]

Nuts dont off topic here.
U are talking about Prophet grandson that prophet many times kissed him and said some foolish people will martyr you. U are not talking about two men that fough fo power.
Before u have said u are atheists so dont post nonsense about grandson of prophet.
Know who u are talking about.

Mohammad Pbuh came here to stop the worship of idols.

Idols come in many varities, men, the statues, the paintings, the stones and the some in the heavens.

If you tell othersw to worship idols, well you are not doing service to Mohammad pbuh and definitely not Imam Hussain.

Hope you understand.

As Muslims we must believe in one God aka Allah. That's it.

Rest of the list is just men,

yea the men who may deserve our respect, but never a worship. That's what some pagans did.


Hope you understand.

Answer me , one thing , mate .

The society has done it in the past , it is doing so today , it will continue the same in the future . Where's the change , mate ? You would consider just the conscious determination and subsequent enforcement of " democratic principles " to be near that ? I have been trying to make the point that religion is a freaking personal business and should remain as such , because whenever enforcement happens on a societal scale by the wishes of a few ( never on democratic principles as the history ) tells us , it has either lead to anarchy,chaos,confusion or downright bloodshed,civil war - if the past is any indication . The changes you propose , mate , are just not possible with the current mindset and the sectarian strife/differences of Muslims - these people aren't even ready to listen/tolerate others let alone come to argue on things and agree and believe in give and take . I am not denying that its not good as a hypothetical solution but practically , it doesn't appear practical unless Muslims get real " enlightenment " and not what they consider today , outsourcing all their free and critical thinking powers to Mullah or the God's viceroy . It hasn't been done in the history so I am not seeing the sudden change .

Well , I have no problem in anyone being anything or following whatever they want - I am too liberal to bother with that stuff , but still what you mention constitutes a Quranist - even taking Hadith as a historical reference and not considering it a general guideline and a detailed manual for performance . So do not worry , unlike a Mullah , I do not have the power and authority to issue a kill fatwa - effective immediately

Then , I believe you consider the Swiss Civil Code , the same as Sharia - open to changes as the change occurs ? Open for legislators to make alteration based on the modern day needs ? Not a lot of Muslims will agree on that - I told you they do not even want the forensics to take part in investigations of the crimes and their punishment governed by the Islamic law . It isn't admissible , you see , mate , they still need a total of four people to witness the " foreplay " and the " intercourse " . Come one , optimistic Armstrong . What sort of people are you talking about ? You think they be willing to reform as you think ? Never !

I know we will not be contradicting or going against God's message for he has left a lot of things for interpretation by the common man , which means the permission/denial of a lot of things aren't to be decided based on a couple of Hadiths or the interpretation to be decided by a couple of elders who have some divine knowledge of religion and the others were born with no intellect . The paradoxical inflexibility I talked of , is there , it has just transferred itself to different sects and is being controlled from them . I mean from the beginning , you always had to take the help of a senior most educated wise person and later his students , either it be the starting schools of thought or sects . Its the way , we have always run this religious business and we sure as hell aren't going to change the way . Ecclesiastical order and the grand importance of few leaders/scholars/generations of this and that were always present , we just lived in an illusion of deciding for ourselves even though all we were doing was praising them and agreeing with them and subconsciously thinking hey we got a say in these matters . This wasn't what Islam was supposed to be , but thats what it turned out to be .

Why am I not commenting on the limits you talk about , why am I not talking about where to draw the line , why not a single mention of " what should the society/state interfere in and what should it leave alone for people to decide " , why not a word on democratic principles and how it should take place ? Because , I do not see it happening looking at the history of Muslims .

You raked your brains and are certain of that , but the reality on ground is different . Answer me in Naswarville .

Wow!

What a beautiful thought process.

What I can I say after this.


I am not worthy. I am not worthy


With immense respect.

yours truly. Always.

 

[Secur]

As an Ahmedi, I don't expect you to understand the story of Karbala and the sacrifices involved.

Please don't expose your imbecile nature in every thread.

There's the red line , @Armstrong .

 

[Developereo]

There's the red line , @Armstrong .

NO

The red line is this froth-at-the-mouth bigot spreading sectarian hatred between Shias and Sunnis everywhere he goes.

It's him personally attacking anyone who disagrees with him as an Islamist mullah worshiper or ayatollah worshiper.

It's him mocking the sacrifices of Imam Hussain and other persons.

Just because a bigot like him is a hero to some Pakistanis does NOT mean that he will get away with it.

And before you start hopping on your sanctimonious high, read and understand my post.

I wrote that, as a non-Shia, he may not know the history of Karbala, so he is not entitled to comment on the sacrifices of Imam Hussain.

As I wrote, I have nothing against Ahmedis as a faith. I only have contempt for imbeciles who post without knowledge.

 

[Developereo]

please amend your post and take out who you are
my dear, the kind of bigoted pigs we Pakistanis of majority faith are, I request people to keep their faiths to themselves otherwise whatever they write is ignored and their ethnicity, race, sect, religion is brought up. take the example of slime Zardari, the scoundrel is more hated for being a shia than being the biggest slimy scumbag with no moral character and an in your face thief

As I wrote, there was no sectarian attack involved.

I would have written the same comment about a Hindu or a Jew commenting on the details of Islamic faith that he clearly didn't know, or vice versa.

 

[Secur]

NO
The red line is this froth-at-the-mouth bigot spreading sectarian hatred between Shias and Sunnis everywhere he goes.

No , Developereo .

The red line , you just set , was at the difference of opinion because the poster wasn't telling something that offensive or blasphemous for you to go all " berserk " and start going personal rather than negating his points or proving him wrong in a debate . This wasn't really a way to show your disagreement . What is , most unsatisfactory , is seeing a fellow TT engage in this practice which is usually associated with low quality trollers . His faith/belief should be of least concern to you or anyone unless and until he was posting on the topic . Maybe , we can start shooting the message , instead of the messenger ? The only thing I got from your post with half of insults thrown was " Question not , for ye shall be insulted " .

 

[FaujHistorian]

No , Developereo .

The red line , you just set , was at the difference of opinion because the poster wasn't telling something that offensive or blasphemous for you to go all " berserk " and start going personal rather than negating his points or proving him wrong in a debate . This wasn't really a way to show your disagreement . What is , most unsatisfactory , is seeing a fellow TT engage in this practice which is usually associated with low quality trollers . His faith/belief should be of least concern to you or anyone unless and until he was posting on the topic . Maybe , we can start shooting the message , instead of the messenger ? The only thing I got from your post with half of insults thrown was " Question not , for ye shall be insulted " .

Thank you bro.

your arguments are always to the point and succinct.

Not to move away from Imam Hussain,

but Ahmadis will accuse me of attacking their idol aka Khalifa, because I personally believe there is no point of having a Khalifah in 2013.

And bro @Developereo refuses to edit his post where he attacked Ahmadis for their faith and not the Khalifah business.


Perhaps we the Muslims in India and Pakistan do not have our own sense of respect to denounce an idol being worshipped in Saudi or some pagan idol in Iran. That such historical personalities don't have to be our idols.

Heck we got rid of idols that were local to us,

only to become worshippers of the so-called gods of other countries.


I mean look at this thread.


Is red-colored rain water really some kind of blood?

Did anyone ever ask the question such as:

What kind of forking blood?

Human blood or animal blood

If it was human blood. then Is it group A, B, or O. Was it plus or minus.

And if it was say A+, then who in the heavens slaughtered a beast-man large enough to create so much "blood".

If it was animal blood then
Have we ever seen baffalos and elephants and pigs fly into the skies to be slaughtered to secure all that "blood".


I mean where will this superstiion end?

where will we stop and say, Why on earth such non-sense is being spread on a public forum?

Is this how we show our respect for Mohammad pbuh or his descendants.

Is believing in such non-snese, and spreading this non-sense is the way to show our love and respect.


Beats me.

Really beats me

And then some dimwitt posters are here to accuse anyone questioning this nonsense as "kafir", oh no worse than kafir, an ahmadi.

Shameful.

So shameful.


Mohammad pbuh tells us not to believe in idols. There is one God, so do not make more gods.
Mohammad pbuh tells us not to believe in false messengers after him. He is the last one, so do not make more prophets.


But we continue making more idols, more gods, and more prophets and more Khalifas.

What a waste.

 

[Resurrection5782]

Mohammad Pbuh came here to stop the worship of idols.

Idols come in many varities, men, the statues, the paintings, the stones and the some in the heavens.

If you tell othersw to worship idols, well you are not doing service to Mohammad pbuh and definitely not Imam Hussain.

Hope you understand.

As Muslims we must believe in one God aka Allah. That's it.

Rest of the list is just men,

yea the men who may deserve our respect, but never a worship. That's what some pagans did.


Hope you understand.






Wow!

What a beautiful thought process.

What I can I say after this.


I am not worthy. I am not worthy


With immense respect.

yours truly. Always.

Maybe some pagans think loving Prophet and ahal bait is worshiping idols.
Prophet has many times said everyone who love me and my family especialy Imam hadan (saa) and Imam hossein(saa) is prosper.
I want Prophet and Imam hossein counter u.

 

[Resurrection5782]

Spare me your fake indignation.

@FaujHistorian is one of the rudest posters on this forum and the most prone to personal attacks at the drop of a hat. The fact that his personal attacks may suit your tastes is irrelevant and shows your inherent prejudices.

He is the first to attack the religious beliefs of other posters. That, by itself, is not an issue for me; there are many posters who are atheists and attack religious beliefs, but the respectable ones are intellectually honest. They attack all religions. This poster does not. He only attacks Muslims and actually defends religious abuses by other religions. That intellectual dishonesty is unacceptable and I will point it out.

Once again, your willful blindness to that fact does not excuse his behavior.

I, and others, have called him out on several occasions on his tendency to go personal, yet he continues this behavior because he is adulated by many Pakistanis and others. The fact that he has a fan club because of his histrionics against Muslims is not an excuse for the behavior.

To get back to the specific context, he trivialized the sacrifices of Imam Hussain's family and mocked why God didn't intervene. The reason for that is well known and explained in the religious context. I pointed out that his ignorance of that context renders him unqualified to mock the Karbala event. He would not dare mock Jesus' experience or that of other religions.



I specifically wrote that I respect Ahmedis and it is YOU personally that I am accusing of spreading hatred and ignorance. I called YOU out for your comments borne of ignorance and prejudice.

Who is here mod to delete off topics?

@Malik Alashter
How are u bro?
Will u help us here?