Army wants to become part of CPEC administration

[VCheng]

A Project by Army administered by Army so whats the problem?

The very definition of Pakistan itself.

 

[Spring Onion]

The very definition of Pakistan itself.

Civilian government in Balochistan is non-existent so there is no issue if such a huge project is protected by national army.

 

[Abingdonboy]

Again the situation doesn't allow us to. Last time a sucker politician was there, after killing his opponents he handed entire country to army when he couldnt handle east Pakistan and we had the result. The sucker wasnt ready to acknowledge the results and then these lot put entire blame on army !c

Why does it have to be so extreme? You either get the best politcans in the world or they will lead you to destruction? Like I have said, you aren't going to get the ideal candidates overnight, they won't simply root out of the ground but the entire system needs to be given a chance over decades to flourish. Expecting perfect performance immediately is simply setting them up to fail and it seems to me that that Pak Army have created such a narrative. There is nothing wrong in being cynical towards the civlians but to generalise that they are all terrible and that is inherent to their "kind" creates a self-fulfilling prophecy.

And in your esteemed why should he be behind
bars ?

I don't have an opnion on the matter but this was a case that was lodged agaisnt him and now he is living in Dubai.

 

[firestorm77]

Most Generals are clean and I know I don't trust any one blindly Mr. I am the most suspicious person and no Musharraf doesn't have this worth all wrong.

http://www.thenews.com.pk/print/114758-How-Mr-clean-Musharraf-became-a-billionaire

http://www.dawn.com/news/1253863/retired-generals-sold-etpb-land-illegally

btw remember it was Mushy who allowed drone strikes & CIA to operate freely in Pakistan.

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/apr/12/musharraf-admits-permitting-drone-strikes

 

[Shah01]

And let the country fuk itself from the inside with a neighbor six times your size who hasnt digested your existence waiting for opportune moment to.....

I talked about where army should help rather than overtaking the governance. These institutions include Judiciary, Police and Education. These three institutions will bring law and order, accountability and awareness. Army can also fund some research work in universities so that a new generation of scientists and engineers can be trained. This will give a chance to future generation in competing with the rest of the world (today science and technology has overtaken other fields and increasingly used in defence).
As long India is concerned we need to understand that we cannot compete with them and this disparity will only widen. The only way to match them is on educating the masses, setting up a knowledge based economy and having a stable governance.

 

[VCheng]

Civilian government in Balochistan is non-existent so there is no issue if such a huge project is protected by national army.

Protection is very different than management.

 

[Spring Onion]

Protection is very different than management.

NOT Much. if their infrastructure development apparatus deliver in time than dead slow work of our civilian one then nothing wrong. We need to speed-up work on CPEC infra

 

[VCheng]

NOT Much. if their infrastructure development apparatus deliver in time than dead slow work of our civilian one then nothing wrong. We need to speed-up work on CPEC infra

Yes, the work needs to be speeded up, but it does not mean that those who are assigned protection duties also must administer and manage the entire edifice. However, it makes for a great tactic to seize control.

 

[Nike]

good or bad politician has it roots from the people they came from, if you want to get the best politician for your country you need to overhaul and upgrading the societies they will came from.

 

[Spring Onion]

Yes, the work needs to be speeded up, but it does not mean that those who are assigned protection duties also must administer and manage the entire edifice. However, it makes for a great tactic to seize control.

why not they have road building organization that had executed far difficult infrastructure projects under civilian government rules. And it is not about entire edifice but infrastructure development.

It is up to the government to accept the proposal or not

 

[VCheng]

why not they have road building organization that had executed far difficult infrastructure projects under civilian government rules. And it is not about entire edifice but infrastructure development.

It is up to the government to accept the proposal or not

Let's see what the government decides, or is forced to decide.

Exactly right and is this not what we have seen throughout Pakistan's history? Civlain leaders/governments "cut down to size" when the PA felt their stranglehold being challenged. The most recent example is perhaps the drama with Imran Khan as the Mushy treason trail was going on, Nawaz Sharif has been "cut to size" hasn't he? And where is the former Pak COAS? Is he behind bars?

May be your basic premise as stated previously is sound?

 

[WAJsal]

Answered below. The stress here is to let the system evolve organically.


This will be covered in the upcoming note by @WAJsal on history of Pakistan. My opinion is that army tried to find a military solution to a political problem (Gen Yahya made the right system for the elections but his call for military action was uncalled for).

It certainly will be and in the coming parts we will also present a comprehensive solution to the stated problems...I think our good friend @Abingdonboy has missed my previous write-ups. Here you go:
https://defence.pk/threads/pakistans-political-history-part-1.407849/
https://defence.pk/threads/pakistans-political-history-part-2.419934/

Part 3 will take some time, can't give a timeline. The last part will be the most crucial part and will be the most exciting too for the readers.

The system needs to evolve organically, there is no magical bullet and as bad as the leaders you may have may be they are what you have and you need to make it work, washing your hands of them and providing legitimacy to a coup is replacing one set of seld serving induviduals with another except this time they have a stronger PR strategy and are better at hiding their negatives and demand no accountability.

Well said and totally agreed with the point made. Proof is India itself, Pakistani folks here need to find the reasons behind the political stability in India. Is that not why they are ahead of us?

My take on the topic is quite a common opinion, since the project requires additional help from the army, build a consensus look to make it corruption-free. I think this is a sane route to take. This is the realistic voice in my head talking.
Ideally speaking i would look to strengthen my civilian government, through parliament, through stability and etc, etc. Since the current government looks to complete it's tenure regardless of what it's doing for the country, they are ready to make the sacrifices. I would personally make sure the army is not strong enough to question any move taken by the government. That is not by forcing the army, only way to do so is by making a Pakistan our forefathers dreamt of.
Or we could follow the Indian model, which would be ideal; though it would require some doing and a lot of effort, especially since the times have changed...

And let the country fuk itself from the inside with a neighbor six times your size who hasnt digested your existence waiting for opportune moment to.....

I would rather take that route than let another dictator destroy this country to stay in power.

Exactly right and is this not what we have seen throughout Pakistan's history? Civlain leaders/governments "cut down to size" when the PA felt their stranglehold being challenged. The most recent example is perhaps the drama with Imran Khan as the Mushy treason trail was going on, Nawaz Sharif has been "cut to size" hasn't he? And where is the former Pak COAS? Is he behind bars?

Dharna didn't have the armies support. It might have to do something with retired officers. IK seems like a genuine person, i don't think he'd be involved in something like that.

As if Army doesn't live in Islamabad ? As if its not corrupt ?

Someone please explain why there is no accountability of Army ? Why NAB is not allowed to probe scams in
DHA, Askri, Fauji Foundation, Royal Palm, New Islamabad Airport, NLC, dealings with Malik Riaz, Bol Network etc ?

You are only making a mockery out of your government. Army being corrupt and power only goes to highlight the incompetence of civilian government, a weak civilian government results in a stronger Army lobby.

@That Guy , can provide a better analysis on the subject...

The very definition of Pakistan itself.

Highly incorrect statement and very insulting to our founding fathers. What was the logic behind this post? feeling embarrassed and sad.

 

[notorious_eagle]

I don't see why you need to have visited Pakistan to be able to offer (possible) prescriptions. There is nothing unique about Pakistan or its people, they have the same basic desires, functions and cognitive abilities as any other member of the human race. What is unique to Pakistan is its history and specific model of governance over the past 70 years.

If you have not visited the country, how would you know what the reality is on the ground? Pakistan is not India, and India is not Pakistan. Average Pakistani is starved off good governance and deliverance by the State. The Average Pakistani has lost faith in civilian institutions and only trusts the Army because he can see that they are the only ones going above and beyond to deliver results for the common folk.

I am still failing to understand why in a nation of 200 million people just 100 or so (the very top brass of the PA) at any one time can be considered qualified to run the country. What is it in the Pak Mil training that makes these men so special? Nothing other than they are the ones with the guns (which they have used to cease all the power/resources).

It's the mismatch in intellect. While the Army is a professional institution which promotes talent within, Pakistan's Political Parties are not institutions but family built mafias which rely on nepotism, patronage and corruption to cement its rank. Nawaz Sharif and Zardari run their parties like King's and are deeply involved in looting the meagre resources of the country. Nawaz Sharif first became PM in 1990 when Raheel Sharif was probably a Major in the Army, its 2016 now and Nawaz Sharif is again the PM but it appears he hasn't learned squat. He is still the same corrupt filthy swine that he was in 1990. Compare his intellect with Raheel Sharif who has always been an overachiever, you will see the difference between the Army and our Political Institutions. It's not the guns, but deliverance that has allowed PA to remain the most popular institution in Pakistan.

Democracy is not an instant product, it needs to be treated like a fragile flower intially, constantly watered and taken care of so that its roots can grow deeper and deeper and then eventually it can be fully self sufficent and strong in its own right.

True, but seriously PPP and PML-N have been in politics for the past 40 years and they still haven't learned. What makes you think they will start learning now?

It is simply inconceviable that the Pakistan Army will outperform civlian elected governements in the long run- they just need to be given the chance.

8 years and counting, 11 years from 1988 to 1999. That's long enough for the politicians to learn in the past 3 deades.

Right now the system as it is will attract the corrupt and those out to loot whilst the sun is shining because the shadow of the PA is looming and thus the incentive is to take take take whilst you can and perhaps know that the PA is always there to pick up the slack. But if you establish a real democracy where the military works for the civlians then the entire dynamic will change, the civlians should be put in a postion to sink or swim on their own, as it stands dual power centres are tripping over themselves and making a mess of the entire show.

Easier said than done. Until the politicians pick up the slack and start delivering, Pakistani people will always look towards the Army as the saviour. If the politicians want to permanently shut the Army out of politics, they need to start delivering. Case in point, Erdogan in Turkey.

 

[Edevelop]

tell your PM... What is the purpose of Govt.. if they are not capable to accountable anyone thn go home simple rather providing justifications and just put allegations and blame on others because in real Govt is Incompetent and core to corrupt...

You are only making a mockery out of your government. Army being corrupt and power only goes to highlight the incompetence of civilian government, a weak civilian government results in a stronger Army lobby.

@That Guy , can provide a better analysis on the subject...

What is the purpose of having democracy and governments if Army is not going to let it run and improve over time ?

How about acknowledging CPEC is a government project conceived by Nawaz ? How about proving corruption in these projects rather than making ridiculous sweeping statements ? If there is, does that allow the Army under constitution to take over ? Is it really their job ? Is there no corruption in Army ?

'Your government' ? Isn't this tera, mera exactly the thing haunting Pakistan since independence ? How about seriously dividing Pakistan ? Everyone would just be happy not hearing tanay of Punjabi rule.

 

[SBD-3]

What is the purpose of having democracy and governments if Army is not going to let it run and improve over time ?

How about acknowledging CPEC is a government project conceived by Nawaz ? How about proving corruption in these projects rather than making ridiculous sweeping statements ? If there is, does that allow the Army under constitution to take over ? Is it really their job ? Is there no corruption in Army ?

'Your government' ? Isn't this tera, mera exactly the thing haunting Pakistan since independence ? How about seriously dividing Pakistan ? Everyone would just be happy not hearing tanay of Punjabi rule.

Its funny but in such scenario his GB will go straight to China and he will enjoy the life Xinjiang style