Army rubbishes claims of LEJ links.

[lavrentiy beria]

While there are many countries in the world who use proxies for their interests

BUT

We are such a foolish country that we created proxies from within our own society.

--------------------------------------------

America has been using non-state actors but have you ever seen American citizens being used as proxies?

 

[Silverblaze]

Can you elaborate on this point kindly...

How are the Marris and Bugtis etc being affected by LeJ and their prosecution of Shias? Their plans are still being carried out and BLA is still doing it's work, regardless of what LeJ does IMO.

You are mixing it up. Lej and other Sunni groups do not seek independence and hence they are not a huge threat to the integrity.

These groups were used against the Baloch and sindhi insurgencies. Many countries do that usually weak states. To create a balance in a particular district such groups are tolerated, but since the incompetent establishment does not have a vision they fail to realize they are a double edged sword.

A nice article. Please do read it.

Narratives on Hazara pogroms - Wajahat S Khan

 

[Amatoxin]

Everything has a time. Why isn't the army doing it right now? Maybe because there is no real political will, and the Army itself is already engaged with the Taliban.

Lack of political will is highly doubtful. If now is not the time its hard to imagine when it will be. Anyways, my point still remains that the PA takes up operations halfheartedly, for various reasons best known to them, is a mistake. Everyone would be right in accusing them of holding it back for nefarious reasons, if not a Sri Lanka style cleansing is in order and it was required yesterday.

You should hear it again, get your facts and figures right first.

Excuse me if I'm wrong but I yes I failed to give a source and I forgot that it was below 60%.

Defense budget is 648.2 billion (estimated) as follows, 25%:

Defense Affairs and Services = 545 billion
Military Pensions = 98 billion
PAEC = 40 billion
Defence Division = 3.2 billion
Defence Production Division = 2 billion
Source: http://www.defence.pk/forums/pakist...y-paf-aircraft-crashes-127.html#ixzz2LvnLtjLB
http://www.finance.gov.pk/budget/Budget_in_Brief_2012_13.pdf

Still 25% is not a small spend of the budget.

That is the lamest excuse one can ever use. And what if military rule was there? The police didn't simply stop functioning. Benazir and Nawaz Sharif government was there before Musharraf, and Musharraf wasn't a total dictator that he employed army everywhere, police functioned there duties as before....and now 5 years of PPP government, so this excuse is completely invalid.

There was no checks to make them work, the judiciary itself was behind the bars, all those came before also did dictate rather than govern. the feed back mechanism was put in a closet for most of your country's history, a 15 year period is like asking it to be freaking perfect and the fastest, which democracy isn't.

In a democracy a civilian govt. has to answer, in five years you guys are sick of your ruling party and this has at least lead to politics returning to normalcy. Imran Khan and his supporters would not have a chance to look forward to elections if he Army was dictating, so there indeed is a positive development. Then I do not know if he is the best but many people seems to like him its a plus for Pakistan.

You should come and see how paranoid some folks in these places are...

Do I understand you correctly, did you mean the some folks in PA do care about the media? If so who are they and what influence they have on the army's decision process?

 

[Amatoxin]

You shouldn't even be talking about our Intelligence Agencies and Politics.
Get your facts straight, Civilinan Goveronments have used these LEA and Civil Intel agencies time and again for their own sake then the betterment of the nation. There are good officers in the these agencies however they are suppresed by the political parties, and transfered to hell holes in the country. Civil or Military both are same it doesn't matter who rules the country in the end people has to suffer.
SC seeks reply on misuse of IB funds by PPP govt

Internal spying?: PML-N tasks police’s special branch with political survey


FEDERAL INFLUENTIALS’ AGENCY

I can tell you one more thing from my personal experience, a sitting Deputy director who is on contractual basis is serving in Capital Development Authority, he in his best efforts trying to get into FIA on deputation.......the guy is a complete goon.....so this is our civilian setup

I do not understand your argument in bold.
The honest people are transferred ad its nothing new, however it is still good that you know of and would protest against that. With the PA you can be sure that you will disappear if you speak up, and you know what I am talking about.
People have to suffer but the present day suffering, more appropriately the intensity of suffering, is the result of the misplaced policies of your Army rather than the civilian Govt. Have I heard correctly that this is the first time a civilian Govt. is completing its full five years?
Regarding the links they have happened elsewhere too, but your SC has taken note - ain't that a good thing?

Taking you back into the summer of 2012, when the civilian government rained hell on lyari - Karachi. They had the total control of the operation. If they had decided to go in the situation in karachi would have been a bit different then it is today, however operation was ended because of pressure from parties.

So cut the crap blaming everything on army and portraying civilians as innocent victims.......both are to be blamed.....

The only difference is one party is trying to make a difference while other party(govt) is still messing up everything..

Parties put their weight because of the polarization of Pakistani Awam, if there is huge support from the people of Pakistan which party can dare pressurize anyone from doing anything?

Agree with your bold statement that both have to be blamed, some more than others..

 

[muse]

Friends:

Do you agree that sectarians outfits that violence, that spread hate speech, are beyond the pale ? Then kill them off - don't give us constitutional arguments and such we all know what's what -- and please get rid of uniformed people in ISPR

 

[batmannow]

Friends:

Do you agree that sectarians outfits that violence, that spread hate speech, are beyond the pale ? Then kill them off - don't give us constitutional arguments and such we all know what's what -- and please get rid of uniformed people in ISPR

please get rid of uniformed people in ISPR & from ARMY?
bring no uniform democratic army?

 

[muse]

please get rid of uniformed people in ISPR & from ARMY?
bring no uniform democratic army?

Thank you for the Comic relief -- get people who are good at crafting the message, good at handling the media - generally speaking the uniforms are no good at this, so we need expert assistance - the best persons for the job.

 

[HAIDER]

I am not surprised at anti shia stance of Saudi Arabia..
They had lots of shia terrorism in Saudia...including the notorious seige of Masjid ul Haraam.

Grand Mosque Seizure - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Really when Shia seige Masjid ul Haram ?. The guy in picture is a wahabi and anti King and want to expel the king from Saudia, later from nowhere Saudi national tv stamped him, a Imam Mehdi claimer. Plus it was evac by French Commandos. So stop you knowledge rely on wikipedia . This is biggest Saudi propaganda. Few thing need to be corrected, even its not part of discussion . All Saudi oil rich region belong to Shia tribes. Do you know how many shia been killed and disappeared in last 30 years. Do you know rape case of shia girl and how all wahabi rapist set free by wahabi court.....Shia is not small majority in Saudia , but these peaceful tirbe been oppressed for decades. Now they are raising from Yamen to Saudi Arabia...now another wave of shia killing start in by Saudi forces in Yeman......

 

[HAIDER]

Saudis used this force very effectively what the Red Mosque copycats managed to do more effectvely and won the hearts and minds of the nation in the way that this nation has happily accepted the murder of 40,000 civilians at the hands of terrorists
but the 1979 operation results had a different ending, the difference was that no terrorist was allowed to re offend or preach hatred from the house of God. the Saudi forces killed 127 during the operation and listen to this

they executed the rest of the 68 cowards regardless of the fact if they were caught trying to escape in a burka or not, that was back in 1979, from that day on , no one tried to dare the Saudis in terms of playing kill kill in the name of religion.
and what was the Saudi public reaction? yes you guessed it right, they were fully supportive of the Saudi forces and hailed the courage of their king, no one lost sleep when those religious thugs were later on executed.

in stark contrast, the "innocent students of Lal masjid who were shooting at the army and rangers with assault rifles and wore body armor and tactical gas masks were freed by the courts despite the fact that they vowed in the courtyard to avenge the attack and fight the state of Pakistan. true to their word they made Ghazi force which forms the part of TTP.

moving on, when the Manawan police academy was attacked. again the captured terrorists were allowed to walk free and they were caught again in a repeat terrorist attacks some apologists cry over the lack of evidence and weak prosecution (but fail to explain why the judges fail to register the behavior and threats given by the accused ) mind you its the same judges who spare no moment to take Agino motto up their bums (I mean take suo motu action) on prices of samosas or contempt of court over news published about them in the newspapers.

its a given that if the terrorists attacking army bases didnt blow themselves or got killed by our forces they would have walked free from courts due to lack of evidence while the bloody evidence worth millions of dollars is scorched to earth.

Did thorough research on that Saudi standoff. That was first SALAFI standoff against Saudi govt. Salafi movements believed that Islam lost its shape and it should bring back to its form during the 1st caliph. According to eye witness. Those attacker first attack on King's castle, when they were badly oppressed then ran to toward mosque for refuge. Where Saudi king called in French army units, those were stationed few miles away from Masjid.

 

[batmannow]

Thank you for the Comic relief -- get people who are good at crafting the message, good at handling the media - generally speaking the uniforms are no good at this, so we need expert assistance - the best persons for the job.

or isnt that better, to make the uniforms ones "the professionals"?

 

[muse]

or isnt that better, to make the uniforms ones "the professionals"?

If in 67 years they have not been able to work this one out, should we not seek out those who have been successful - best, most effective people for the job

 

[batmannow]

If in 67 years they have not been able to work this one out, should we not seek out those who have been successful - best, most effective people for the job

in 67 years we didnt , needed them?
but we needed them now, but the hired ones cant be trusted? even though if they are the toplist professionals?
patriots needed?only!

 

[muse]

patriots needed?only!

That's right, therefore it must not be any of thee uniformed sell outs

 

[Abu Zolfiqar]

why would a Professional Army that draws its men from different provinces -- with men from different sectarian and regional backgrounds -- work hands-in glove with a terrorist organization that seeks to tear Pakistan apart and divide people by the seams?

support for LeJ by the Army would spell suicide for the country. In that hypothetical situation, there could be a mutiny of sorts within


is the Army so STUPID that they would do that???


i mean, it makes absolutely no sense at all...this is anti-Army propaganda being peddled by hardcore leftists as well as those whose full-time paid job is Pak Army bashing (which by extension, is Pakistan-bashing as well)

 

[Abu Zolfiqar]

The best way the army can defect these suspicions is to kill the LeJ, Kill the SSP, Kill the TTP and any variation thereof in any other name-- all of these are creatures of the army, And Army can make believers of all of us and supporters, if it kill them, Now!

But I'll make you a small wager - ARMY WON"T DO THAT

i agree but Army has no presence in Balochistan; they are already fighting another war!

FC/police can and should be able to deal with the menace of these groups -- capturing/killing their leaders and pawns as well as destroying their arms-caches and hideouts (which seem to be constantly replenished) is a must. A national outcry and condemnation of these groups will also put pressure on them. Following the money-trail is also a necessity.

These are all things that can be done without the Army, in my opinion. The Army CAN go in, but quite frankly - for political reasons - i think they should keep out, unless of course the Baloch provincial government and the Center makes the request.