Army rubbishes claims of LEJ links.

[Hyperion]

Khudda kay liye lala.... only ultimate show of force can fix the problem of "sympathizers". Give me the command of ONE SSG unit and give me access to the following two weapon systems along with CAP.

Enjoy the videos and see that after such a show of force on "Lal Masjid" fundoz, you'd have seen a renewed fear of God and country in the hearts of minds of the "sympathizers". I hope you get a chance one day to experience these on the test range, and I hope I get a chance to guide one into the souls of these thugs....

Enjoy my dear friend, two basic weapon systems....

Oh Bhai I didn't troll anything !

You can't just kill the baddies because the repercussions are too severe to imagine; had we factored everything in, in addition to how many guns they had & what not, we wouldn't have done what we did & presented their sympathizers & themselves a perfect stick to castigate Pakistan Army with in a severe propaganda campaign !

Again I say - Do what India does ! Conjecture, exaggerations, omissions & out-rights lies are weaved together & promulgated so aggressively that opinions become facts, that news excerpts become veritable documents & that their narrative becomes incontrovertible !

Learn from that - Muuunnhh Pakaa kar ke Jhooot bolnaaa aur apneiii tracks ko cover karnaa jubbb Pakistan Army ko agiyaaa tou 3 million Bengali would come back to life & they could have operations to kill baddies with impunity till their hearts content !

Right now - Kuch achaaa bhiii karteiiii hain tou media usss ka beraaa gharak banaa deitaa haiii aur yeh chup baitheiii rehteiii hain !

 

[Safriz]

Pic on my latest visit to jhang!

.
Unfortunately the founder of lashkar-e-jhangvi [HAQ NAWAZ] is called a Shaheed in Jhang city!

The violence is on both sides...More so on SSP.. Kiling ordinary people..
But targeted killings By shia militants also exists,and that fuels the feud since 1980s.

SSP leader killed - thenews.com.pk

 

[Irfan Baloch]

Khudda kay liye lala.... only ultimate show of force can fix the problem of "sympathizers". Give me the command of ONE SSG unit and give me access to the following two weapon systems along with CAP.

Enjoy the videos and see that after such a show of force on "Lal Masjid" fundoz, you'd have seen a renewed fear of God and country in the hearts of minds of the "sympathizers"

Saudis used this force very effectively what the Red Mosque copycats managed to do more effectvely and won the hearts and minds of the nation in the way that this nation has happily accepted the murder of 40,000 civilians at the hands of terrorists
but the 1979 operation results had a different ending, the difference was that no terrorist was allowed to re offend or preach hatred from the house of God. the Saudi forces killed 127 during the operation and listen to this

they executed the rest of the 68 cowards regardless of the fact if they were caught trying to escape in a burka or not, that was back in 1979, from that day on , no one tried to dare the Saudis in terms of playing kill kill in the name of religion.
and what was the Saudi public reaction? yes you guessed it right, they were fully supportive of the Saudi forces and hailed the courage of their king, no one lost sleep when those religious thugs were later on executed.

in stark contrast, the "innocent students of Lal masjid who were shooting at the army and rangers with assault rifles and wore body armor and tactical gas masks were freed by the courts despite the fact that they vowed in the courtyard to avenge the attack and fight the state of Pakistan. true to their word they made Ghazi force which forms the part of TTP.

moving on, when the Manawan police academy was attacked. again the captured terrorists were allowed to walk free and they were caught again in a repeat terrorist attacks some apologists cry over the lack of evidence and weak prosecution (but fail to explain why the judges fail to register the behavior and threats given by the accused ) mind you its the same judges who spare no moment to take Agino motto up their bums (I mean take suo motu action) on prices of samosas or contempt of court over news published about them in the newspapers.

its a given that if the terrorists attacking army bases didnt blow themselves or got killed by our forces they would have walked free from courts due to lack of evidence while the bloody evidence worth millions of dollars is scorched to earth.

 

[Irfan Baloch]

The violence is on both sides...More so on SSP.. Kiling ordinary people..
But targeted killings By shia militants also exists,and that fuels the feud since 1980s.

SSP leader killed - thenews.com.pk

great,

so what our lame security forces should be doing is done by unknown killers. the difference is that the victim was the head of a sectarian militant organisation while the victims of SSP/ LeJ include toddlers and infants

now dont get me wrong, I am not condoning the unlawful killings of SSP leadership, they should be arrested and brought to the courts so that they can be allowed to walk free and plan more audacious attacks and kill some more shia doctors and their 11 year old sons and then head to quetta and continue the Hazara culling while we shed 5 liters of tears over Israeli, American, Indian and Burmese atrocities bigotry is not in our dictionary

 

[KS]

great,

so what our lame security forces should be doing is done by unknown killers. the difference is that the victim was the head of a sectarian militant organisation while the victims of SSP/ LeJ include toddlers and infants

The govt also has a share of blame in the actions of these killers..

I'll give an example in the late 80s and early 90s the underworld was such a powerful force in Mumbai much like today's karachi..there were no go areas in many places and the killings and extortions were common..after the Sena took power, they gave a carte blanche to mumbai police to deal with this mess..over the next four years there were upwards of 400 encounters..no arrest, no costly trials, no wastage of time..straight up bullets..and by the end of 4 years there was literally no underworld in mumbai and what was left were only the chota mota part timers with the top brass either fleeing abroad or ending up 6 feet under..

Political will is needed to empower the law enforcement agencies to do their job..

Now I could be wrong about the situation in pakistan where the governments may not have much power to start with due to interference from armed forces..but I think they dont interfere much in provincial matters..do they ?

 

[Alpha1]

First thing, it was not the right thing to do back then, Playing proxies has never been..

secondly, if its true that Army has abandoned all connections with LeJ/SSP/Militant groups then letting them roam free proves what? why no operation, why no secretly take them out, masla khatam karo na phir?

oh wait they are still assets !!

sorry I dont buy your foreign patriotism, I live here !

there is something called the P-o-l-i-c-e
that is responsible for things like these!
But some people like to blame the army for the tasteless cheese pizza of Kfc also

 

[Amaa'n]

What i understand from this all is that, Army is willimg to take action now but Govt is playing politucs on the deadbodies....governor rule was imposed with the approval from army, however it was given a political turn.......talking about secret death squads then that wont be accepted by liberals either and tag it extra judicial killings

 

[Jango]

Your argument in fact can bite you back.

If the army decides to cull all these elements at one go the decline of terrorism and the attacks will surely make people understand that it was a job well done, no?

However, if the Army does these operations halfheartedly without destroying the roots of such orgs then people of course will ask what did they really achieve.

Everything has a time. Why isn't the army doing it right now? Maybe because there is no real political will, and the Army itself is already engaged with the Taliban.

Civilian agencies IMO are incompetent IMO due to many factors

1. Army eats most of the budget, I heard it was more than 60%

You should hear it again, get your facts and figures right first.

2. The civilian forces were never given the attention due to the lack of civilian rule.

That is the lamest excuse one can ever use. And what if military rule was there? The police didn't simply stop functioning. Benazir and Nawaz Sharif government was there before Musharraf, and Musharraf wasn't a total dictator that he employed army everywhere, police functioned there duties as before....and now 5 years of PPP government, so this excuse is completely invalid.

The sole purpose of the army should be to protect the nation, when was the Army even scared of the news coming out of such media houses.. It is enough that so many Pakistanis believe that they are bought by propaganda spreading countries, who really cares for these news items?

You should come and see how paranoid some folks in these places are...

 

[niaz]

I have no break up of the ISI available before me to ascertain whether there are Shias in the ISI & the rest of the Security Apparatus of Pakistan or not but I have no reason to believe that there isn't for if that were truly the case, likewise, a schism would have manifested itself before us in a classical haves & have-nots approach.

As for General Hamid Gul, I've always known the Taliban tag attached to him but somehow Sectarian Outfits haven't been blamed on him by even his detractors, so this is new for me. I'd much appreciate it if some sort of substantiation of this were to be made available.

I for one find it impossible to visualize how can people or an organization engineer massacre of score of human beings simply because they belong to a different sect and then boast about it! Such kind of incidents could never be imagined in Pakistan up to 1979.

You are absolutely correct that Gen Hamid Gul's involvement in sectarian killing is circumstantial at best. Gen Hamid Gul was appointed Head of ISI in March 1987. SSP was formed in 1985 with the tacit support of Zia ul Haq, and support of the Saudi, primarily to counteract rise of Shia Islam thru Khomeini in Iran and with the declared the aim to turn Pakistan into a Sunni Wahhabi state. Growth of SSP from a virtual non-entity created by heretofore obscure Deobandi mullahs to a very powerful sectarian organization occurred during the tenure of Gen Hamid Gul. Therefore Hamid Gul’s indirect involvement support of the sectarian parties cannot be denied and ISI role in nurturing Sunni sectarian organizations is hard to deny.
Here are a few links which indirectly show Hamid Gul's links to sectarian and terrorist organizations.

PAKISTAN: Shia Genocide- Military and Militants
Malik Ishaq attended Multan rally: Jamaatud Dawa – The Express Tribune
Chagatai Khan: Mirza Aslam Beg & Hamid Gul Support Sectarianism.
Reshaping Religious Institutions: Studying the Impact of State Involvement and Regional Conflict on Pakistan
http://weekly.ahram.org.eg/2001/558/2war.htm

 

[Safriz]

I am not surprised at anti shia stance of Saudi Arabia..
They had lots of shia terrorism in Saudia...including the notorious seige of Masjid ul Haraam.

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grand_Mosque_Seizure

 

[Armstrong]

@niaz Bhai, if I may :

I think we have to look at these sectarian kilings as part of a larger security paradigm ! My own assessment of the situation is that the Armed Forces are not backing these outfits for the simple reason that if they were doing this, they'd end up alienating whole swathes of their manpower because naturally countless Sunnis, Shias, Ismailis & the sects within these sects within the Army are bound to take grave measures as a means of expressing their anger & extreme displeasure against the Army & the ISI supporting those who kill their loved ones. The absence of any such measure manifesting itself not just in the Armed Forces but the Paramilitary Forces & the Civilian Security Apparatus gives me reasonable evidence to conclude that in all probabilities Sectarian Outfits do not have the backing of the Army or even Retired Army Personnel who are nonetheless in both easy access to the Army & have experienced the same sense of beautiful camaraderie that the Army appears to infuse in its personnel where truly such religious, ethnic & linguistic boundaries are very much transcended. I'm sure if General Sahib or any other Ex-Military Personnel were to be doing something like this they are bound to have the support of the Army & that support no matter how covert to us civilians would be very conspicuous to serving Army personnel & would lead to the same schism that I alluded to previously. So the aspersion that the Armed Forces are behind this doesn't really add up for me that much.

I will, however, reiterate again that I opine that this sectarianism has its roots in the Zia Era when we allowed both the Saudis & the Iranians to export their turf war to Pakistan just as they had done so in Iraq, to a lesser extent in Afghanistan & the rest of the Middle East & some African countries. In the '80s, the '90s & even in the early '00s this turf war was anything but one sided where you'd see Sunnis dead for every Shia personality killed & Shias dead for every Sunni personality killed in an absolutely regressive & repugnant situation that appeared to have pitted Sunnis against Shias & Shias against Sunnis. For every LeJ & SSP we had the Tehrek-i-Jafriya & Sipah-e-Muhammadi, all of whom have so much innocent Pakistani blood on their hands.

I think the reason why this has (a) gotten exasperated so much & (b) become chronically one sided, is because of the security paradigm we find ourselves in, the abysmal governance situation & Iran curbing their support to their militants of choice. The War On Terror coupled with a governance situation that is anything but wholesome has given ample vacuum for Militants & at that Sunni Militants to form a nexus of sorts whereby you find the LeJ, the TTP & other Sunni Extremist groups more or less watching out for each other. Then I think the International Pariah Status that Iran has been subjected to & some amount of goodwill we may have earned with the Iranians by helping them catch Jundullah's head, has compelled it to refrain from supporting Shia Militants in its next door neighboring, who is still willing to trade with it & support it diplomatically, as was the case in the past 1-2 decades.

I do blame the Armed Forces & the Civilian Executive for their failure to not only preempt this mess but also in not mustering up even a sorry excuse of a response but I also realize how chronically inept the Civilian Executive is & how stretched thin the Army is with a militancy in Baluchistan, an insurgency in FATA, an arrogant & assertive rival to the East, a virtually Northern Alliance remnant led Afghanistan in the West & a level of castigation in the International Media of Pakistan that knows no parallels in our 65 year history.

Consequently I think that it isn't as if there appears to be a malicious State Policy on any level to try to target one group against the other & by group I mean ethnic, linguistic, religious or sectarian, nor do I think that somehow the Armed Forces aren't doing jack to address that but I think we'd do well to look at it through the dynamics of the situation instead of considering this as State mandated Sectarianism for that logic appears, to me, to be, unsound !

 

[Amaa'n]

Your argument in fact can bite you back.

If the army decides to cull all these elements at one go the decline of terrorism and the attacks will surely make people understand that it was a job well done, no?

However, if the Army does these operations halfheartedly without destroying the roots of such orgs then people of course will ask what did they really achieve.



Civilian agencies IMO are incompetent IMO due to many factors

1. Army eats most of the budget, I heard it was more than 60%
2. The civilian forces were never given the attention due to the lack of civilian rule.



The sole purpose of the army should be to protect the nation, when was the Army even scared of the news coming out of such media houses.. It is enough that so many Pakistanis believe that they are bought by propaganda spreading countries, who really cares for these news items?

You shouldn't even be talking about our Intelligence Agencies and Politics.
Get your facts straight, Civilinan Goveronments have used these LEA and Civil Intel agencies time and again for their own sake then the betterment of the nation. There are good officers in the these agencies however they are suppresed by the political parties, and transfered to hell holes in the country. Civil or Military both are same it doesn't matter who rules the country in the end people has to suffer.

SC seeks reply on misuse of IB funds by PPP govt

Internal spying?: PML-N tasks police’s special branch with political survey


FEDERAL INFLUENTIALS’ AGENCY

I can tell you one more thing from my personal experience, a sitting Deputy director who is on contractual basis is serving in Capital Development Authority, he in his best efforts trying to get into FIA on deputation.......the guy is a complete goon.....so this is our civilian setup
Taking you back into the summer of 2012, when the civilian government rained hell on lyari - Karachi. They had the total control of the operation. If they had decided to go in the situation in karachi would have been a bit different then it is today, however operation was ended because of pressure from parties.

So cut the crap blaming everything on army and portraying civilians as innocent victims.......both are to be blamed.....

The only difference is one party is trying to make a difference while other party(govt) is still messing up everything..

 

[niaz]

I am not surprised at anti shia stance of Saudi Arabia..
They had lots of shia terrorism in Saudia...including the notorious seige of Masjid ul Haraam.

Grand Mosque Seizure - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Regret to contradict you but that was not a Shia uprising. The leader Juhayman Al Otaibi was a Hanbalite and a student of Sh Mohammed Al Shanqeeti a Hanbalite scholar of note from Mauritania and a well loved teacher in the Islamic University of Medina.

Al Otaibi tribesmnen are even more radical than the Ibne Sauds and were part of the Ikhwan. Otaibi's father was killed fighting King Abdul Aziz in the battle of Sabilla between House of Saud & Ikhwan in 1929.

Juhayman said that his justification was that the Al Saud had lost its legitimacy through corruption and imitation of the West, an echo of his father's charge in 1921 against Abd al Aziz.

Only riot caused by the Shia in Mecca was during the Hajj in 1987, when they were chanting slogans against Israel & the US. They were unarmed and wearing 'Ahram'. Saudi forces fired on them killing about 400 Iranian Hajj pilgrims.

It appears that many intelligent people have been brainwashed against the Shia to the extent that they automatically blame all the evil deeds on the Shia without ascertaining the facts.

 

[Irfan Baloch]

It appears that many intelligent people have been brainwashed against the Shia to the extent that they automatically blame all the evil deeds on the Shia without ascertaining the facts.

they go to the extant saying that all participants of Red Mosque operation were shias who killed all sunni soldiers who refused to take part in the operation and then they attacked the innocent Red mosque students and raped and killed them.

its really funny how our innocent brothers are unable to tell a difference between 1979 and 1987. one can debate that it was not right to chant anti American anti Israeli slogans while in ahram and in Islams most holiest sites but mowing them down in the hail of bullets was also excessive specially when even before Islam people were given sanctuary whatever the faith and violence was forbidden. by the way it was not only Iranians that died, there were also Pakistanis who got caught in the fire , indeed the Saudis never bothered to check the passports.

I am old enough to have witnessed how systematically Sunnis and shias have been separated from each other.

 

[Irfan Baloch]

I am not surprised at anti shia stance of Saudi Arabia..
They had lots of shia terrorism in Saudia...including the notorious seige of Masjid ul Haraam.

Grand Mosque Seizure - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

mate dont shame yourself

the grand mosque siege had nothign to do with the shias, it was a group same as the Al Akhawan Al Muslimeen from where even the Al Qaeda finds its routes.
Saudi shias are as harmful and dangerous as the Pakistani Christians living in slums. I might have more reasons to object to shias but What I dont do is shamelessly lie about events.