Armed forces should not be obliged to ensure success of Make In India

[Maarkhoor]

Since all the wars with Pakistan is fought with obsolete weapons I don't see any issues handling you guys these potent weapons is for our dragon friends

Check the history then bark, 1948, 1965 and even 1971 we fought very well and gave you hard kick at rear end but no other nation can defend their other part 1500 Kms away even Yahya decided to leave Bangladesh even before war, India just became reason.

 

[ashok321]

Indian armed forces know better, how to fight their battle and under what conditions. Political establishment and MOD do not know the ABC of war fighting which is not their cup of tea.

Ultimately, the responsibility to safeguard India and its borders relies on the shoulders of Jawans when it comes to actual war and not Modi likes who have not even a minor role to play on this.

Make in India is good till it is good. Don't shove armed forces throat with this #makeinIndia shik. This would be against the national interest.

BTW, how many (nationalist) BJP leaders sons/daughters are serving in Indian armed forces?
Anyone?

Lol.

 

[Joe Shearer]

Well, China was on the blink of all out nuclear war with then Soviet Union in 1969. It is all about the calculated risks and strategic vision and planning. India should have the confidence that there is no clear and present danger to its security as it is much stronger than any of its foes in its region, so it can forgo the absolute military supremacy instead focuses on indigenous R&D and economics, much like what China did in 80's and 90's. Sometimes, people walk into a tight spot themselves.

PLA has made it almost a "religion" not to rely on foreign weaponry, I guess they developed this mentality because of years of international embargoes and suctions. Too many choices may not be a good thing after all.

Good argument, but do consider that the major breakthroughs in Chinese D&D, the correct term, as research is just kicking in for the last decade or so, occurred after the horrific period when you were actually in confrontation with the USSR. Even in that fraught and tense situation, for reasons that no one has yet explained with any plausibility, Krushchev offered a full TOT for the MiG 21, and the PRC attempted to use the opportunity.

During the period of tension, in fact, until the early 80s, there was little or no impact on the PLAGF or the PLAN or the PLAAF. While your broad brush-stroke appreciation of the situation is a valid analysis, in concrete terms, China faced the same situation then, as India faces now. And the result was similar; an inhibition on indigenous manufacture, an insistence on the old, tried-and-tested although obsolete measures and organisations, and a craving for import.

Regarding the dangers in the region, you have to put yourself in the shoes of the Indian strategic planner to understand what drives his thinking. Consider:

1. China is an ever-present threat, with the advantage of internal lines of communication, inside an arc stretching right across the northern frontier of India; a threat that won decisively during the only encounter that occurred, other than border skirmishes, one that involved an Indian Army scissored between its own excellent performance during the global conflict only fifteen years before (that's like speaking of events in 2002 this year), and the deliberate degradation at the hands of Nehru and his pet, Krishna Menon.
2. The Indian side of the border is broken country, the foothills of the Himalayas, thickly forested, steep, and so broken as to be impossible to defend; the Chinese/Tibetan side is a flat plain on top of the plateau that is Tibet, and has sufficient strategic depth to send troops in a torrent within days to any designated point of the border, with no fear of Indian reactions even approaching the pressure point in even thrice the time.
3. China has superb logistics, we do not.
4. China has gone out of her way to enlist the Pakistanis in their schemes and plans.
5. On the other side, Pakistan is a completely unpredictable enemy, that will sign treaties that it is willing to break at a moment's notice, that has attacked against all reason on three separate occasions, that was victorious (partially) on the first occasion, that failed horribly on the second two, but it would seem that none of these failures have had the slightest effect on the ebullience and unfounded confidence of the people. They are not guided by the types of people you meet here, even though among these are some pretty fanatic types who cannot utter a sentence without uttering an insult.

Against this background, it is difficult to contemplate a let up in defensive behaviour, and any significant change in the behaviour of the top planners.

 

[Sharpshooter12]

Keeping the debate aside that whether Arjun is better than T-90 or not, it is an indigenous product and will go a long way in helping India build its military industrial complex.

You have to see the threat perception and induct accordingly yes, but at-least there is no armor threat from China, terrain will not allow any armor action in Arunachal or any major action in Ladakh. India has enough armor to fight against Pakistan as it is. So unless the army has been told that they need to be ready for a major war against Pakistan by 2025 for which they will need overwhelming armor superiority, I don't see a reason why IA will be this hesitant in inducting Arjun. Perhaps the rumors about Indian generals being influenced by foreign seller lobbies are true.

But there is a problem with Indian military psyche that in the past of couple of decades they are always trying to procure top of the line armament and are not ready to accept an indigenous product that does 70-80% of the required job. Even though India can afford to do so as they have an over-whelming military superiority against us and we are no longer part of any Seato Cento type of alliance that will guarantee high quality military equipment. Especially the IA should have gone for more indigenization because as I said earlier quality of systems like armor will not dictate the battlefield results against China and they have enough systems to counter Pakistan.

While I accept Pakistan does not have the financial muscle or diplomatic clout that of India so our options for foreign procurement are limited, but still and perhaps because of it one can see that Pakistan is aggressively following an indigenization policy. If JF-17 does 70-80% job of a F-16 we are fine with it. And even though need for a top-tier 4++ gen fighter is obvious in PAF, and it can afford it if not in very large numbers, they are still persisting with improving JF-17. Perhaps in their calculus there is not going to be a war against India in a decade or so and they want to concentrate their resources on improving home grown systems rather than wasting on fancy new planes that will rot in hangers.

In our case perhaps this mentality not entirely wise but India can surely afford to do this. If done wisely in couple of decades instead of being world's largest arms importer India can be one of the largest exporters. But we don't know all the facts, like if Indian military has been told to prepare for a final showdown with Pakistan that will decide the fate of South Asia then they are well in their rights to only accept top of the line military hardware.

 

[Papa Dragon]

Keeping the debate aside that whether Arjun is better than T-90 or not, it is an indigenous product and will go a long way in helping India build its military industrial complex.

You have to see the threat perception and induct accordingly yes, but at-least there is no armor threat from China, terrain will not allow any armor action in Arunachal or any major action in Ladakh. India has enough armor to fight against Pakistan as it is. So unless the army has been told that they need to be ready for a major war against Pakistan by 2025 for which they will need overwhelming armor superiority, I don't see a reason why IA will be this hesitant in inducting Arjun. Perhaps the rumors about Indian generals being influenced by foreign seller lobbies are true.

But there is a problem with Indian military psyche that in the past of couple of decades they are always trying to procure top of the line armament and are not ready to accept an indigenous product that does 70-80% of the required job. Even though India can afford to do so as they have an over-whelming military superiority against us and we are no longer part of any Seato Cento type of alliance that will guarantee high quality military equipment. Especially the IA should have gone for more indigenization because as I said earlier quality of systems like armor will not dictate the battlefield results against China and they have enough systems to counter Pakistan.

While I accept Pakistan does not have the financial muscle or diplomatic clout that of India so our options for foreign procurement are limited, but still and perhaps because of it one can see that Pakistan is aggressively following an indigenization policy. If JF-17 does 70-80% job of a F-16 we are fine with it. And even though need for a top-tier 4++ gen fighter is obvious in PAF, and it can afford it if not in very large numbers, they are still persisting with improving JF-17. Perhaps in their calculus there is not going to be a war against India in a decade or so and they want to concentrate their resources on improving home grown systems rather than wasting on fancy new planes that will rot in hangers.

In our case perhaps this mentality not entirely wise but India can surely afford to do this. If done wisely in couple of decades instead of being world's largest arms importer India can be one of the largest exporters. But we don't know all the facts, like if Indian military has been told to prepare for a final showdown with Pakistan that will decide the fate of South Asia then they are well in their rights to only accept top of the line military hardware.

There wouldn't be a war anytime soon neither with China nor Pak as our economy is on the rise. The problem with IA or IAF is, their top brass has been accustomed to corruption, receiving kickbacks and commissions for every deal they make with a foreign vendor.

They issue a tender, go through the procurement process and take kickbacks from pretty much every firm that competes and selects the one who offers the highest and at the same time asks DRDO/PSUs to produce an indigenous variant and eat up a chunk of the funds allocated to that project. They eventually make some unreasonable claims and state that the requirements are obsolete and issue a new tender all over again and the saga continues while sabotaging the indigenous project that has been in the making.

The current govt is doing a fine job in pushing the IA & IAF to induct indigenous weapons systems and hopefully IA & IAF will induct indigenous weapons systems in par with IN

 

[Echo_419]

Foreign companies has links to Indian Generals and they are making sure India never get it own defense Industry up and running. They have made such large investments on the Indian potential to purchase weapons.

You know things are messed up when Pakistanis are talking sense in the Indian defense section, on a thread of such importance

 

[BHarwana]

You know things are messed up when Pakistanis are talking sense in the Indian defense section, on a thread of such importance

This is not some extra ordinary sense this is common sense.

 

[MilSpec]

I'd like to describe JBG's reproduction as his tactical nuke used during the course of a discussion that we were having, but that is unfair to him: he had already composed his arguments based on the discussions that take place from time to time.

Coming to your own remarks,

1. it's true that HAL had nothing to do with the LCA; it was, finally, the production shop after everything had been accepted by the air force.
2. The Air Force has nil capacity to build, to assemble or to maintain, forget about specifying or designing new aircraft, or re-designing older aircraft. For all those, it has to have a production shop; that shop is nothing but HAL.
3. The Air Force is panicky now only because the production rate is so slow. The problem is precisely with the production rate; 4 a year is the speed of a glacier.
4. The Air Force has only itself to blame. A larger requirement will help HAL (and whoever it gets from private sector to finance setting up additional lines) to continue to manufacture for a longer period. It is not frightfully difficult to set up lines for 20 to 24 a year.

The most obvious requirements have not been met. The Tejas is today a good, short range interceptor most amenable to GCI missions; it can play an expanded role if ADA takes another couple of years to build in data links (compatible to the SU 30 in the first instance) enables them as AWACS or SU 30 controlled aircraft. Both AWACS and SU 30 have very long legs; both can loiter and call up swarms of Tejas carrying BVR missiles at short notice, without coming under attack themselves. Neither the F16 nor their magic weapon the JF-17 can do Jack Squat about it; the Swedish AWACS they have, and the Chinese AWACS they are planning to buy are far greater threats.

The Arjun deal is a straight walk-over for the Arjun, and I have carefully listed the reasons on another thread. There is really nothing to be done but either shove it down the throat of the DG in question, and his next three successors. At the moment, it will cream the very questionable junk that it will face, but that is in the western theatre; it cannot be deployed in Ladakh and in Arunachal; there is no way to deploy it in Ladakh and that has nothing to do with terrain. It has everything to do with the long maintenance trail. Arunachal has everything to do with terrain, unless the Army plans to fight in the Brahmaputra Valley. Those who think that being able to transport bulldozers shows that armour can play a role there need to be tied hand and foot and put in front of those same bulldozers; armour needs space to move about.



There is no point in discussing these outside Indian interlocutors.



IN PRINCIPLE, yes; I have serious problems with the specific examples quoted.



The ATAGS is a brilliant example of the way to go.

To take the discussion forward, I will pick a few sentences, without taking them out of context and having read through the post in it's entirety.
"The Air Force has nil capacity to build, to assemble or to maintain, forget about specifying or designing new aircraft, or re-designing older aircraft. For all those, it has to have a production shop; that shop is nothing but HAL."

And that remains my frustrations. Instead of leveraging HAL's expertise in the Aero industry, IAF and Drdo wanted to stick it to HAL, by undercutting it and creating ADA. Although I have never had an opportunity to directly work with them, But the grape-wine both from the engineers side and test pilots were not very flaterring about the organisation and it's culture.
there are multiple gopher heads popping out of IAF grounds squeaking thier criticism and vanishing. Two of the most prominent ones being; Performance of the aircraft (FOC/IOC) AoA, Speed, Weapon systems, range and the second one being Production rate.

Lets address the LCA performance and HAL's role in it first. "The most obvious requirements have not been met. The Tejas is today a good, short range interceptor most amenable to GCI missions"
When ADA froze the design specifications of the LCA,the airframe had been selected with a committee of IAF representatives, so was the engine specifications, and the CFD analysis of comparative airframe configurations was presented. This is the G1 of the Project, Zero look approach, conducted, all requirements frozen.
Today IAF cannot go back and say we are not satisfied with the range or payload, this is exactly what you asked ADA to build. IAF cannot behave like my wife at a restaurant ordering Pasta at a spanish restaurant and then hogging my paella instead. IAF was in the process all along,
G0> Scope and role
G1> Zero look approach must have systems
G2> First look approach, alternate subsystems
G3> Prototype, Second look approach (FG404, Engine, recalibration, Weapons system)
and the rest of the project gates which were severely effed up by ada.

Today IAF cannot say they are not satisfied with range, or performance or weapons systems. They picked all of it.

Now the second critique usually is extremely slow paced production of the aircraft:

And here is where I will do my bit to play devils advocate. I am primarily addressing two of you on the thread, and both of you are well aware that there is no MRP sheets without Production rate. And due to the nature of the system the Plant layout for a final assembly hangar plays an immensely important role in number of units produced. This layout is based on the takt time needed to meet the production rate.
If my guideline is that you have to build 8 LSP series aircraft where the MRP will change on each of the aircraft and all of these will be used to validate system and will have continued changes in Part numbers, guess what I will not have a MRP, I will not conduct value stream analysis to increase labor productivity, I will not address bottlenecks, I will not have visual standard work for technicians, and I will not have a takt time to live upto. When there is nothing to measure, there is nothing to improve. The same HAL can crank out 14 MKI in a year in Nasik and struggles with 4 LCA? All I would request is for the ajai shuklas of the world to go and talk to the Grade 5 chief manager of the final assembly for LCA hanger, not the GM or MD of the complex but the actual CM of the hangar and the issue will be clear beyond the doubt.

The same IAF when places an order with say a Dassault: Places 36 rafales or 59 mirages, with the specified systems,without changes in tranches. But when it comes to LCA, 5 with this radar, the next 5 with the other radar, the next 5 with a different MFD, the next 5 with a different nose cone. That's not how production works.

My argument is not to absolve HAL of it's sins which I can count a thousand in the way they have handled their business with MoD and IAF. But it is high time that HAL should start focusing on it's service and product portfolio to attract other clients than the IAF. It is true that Indian military is not responsible for development of domestic defense industry, and given that the world is willing to sell to Indian forces now, Indian domestic industry should also be looking at the same two way street to find clients that fit their culture.


W.r.t to Arjun , unlike LCA, key subsystems that were to be developed within the program Arjun was from the beginning set to be a system with imported powerplant with the hull and gun developed by CVRDE. From project delivery this was totally copy book example of correct delivery of a system required by the Army and MoD. when it comes to overall performance with the imported components it has today , the tank is an excellent overall fighting system. IA not accepting this tank for frivolous reasons and setting it up for failure is very disappointing as here the army was involved again from the beginning. I dont remember which show this was on, but the I was watching an interview of the young officer from 17th bat of Brigade of guards, and you could see the esteem that the men held for the Arjun, crews operating the tank love it, but there is a good chunk of others who are hell bent of seeing the end of this system. Remember this is the same establishment which bought WZT garbage from Poland. So I absolutely do not buy Army's argument that a partly German tank is more difficult to maintain that Russian tank.

Another part is the Arjun's weight, this was not a 20 year surprise arrange marriage where an overweight spouse was tied to the army. Army specified the specs, directed the performance characteristics to the be similar to the Leopard 2 and then expect it weigh like the t72, that is just ridiculous. The entire contention of 58 tons of arjun being too heavy is absolute rubbish as the army from the outset wanted to build something on the lines of the 62 Ton Leopard 2. And to add to my frustrations here, the production rate is not even an issue as HVF is a hige factory and will crank our as many Arjuns as the army can buy so this doesn't even have a LCA like issue with production space or resource constraints.

 

[Joe Shearer]

Keeping the debate aside that whether Arjun is better than T-90 or not, it is an indigenous product and will go a long way in helping India build its military industrial complex.

You have to see the threat perception and induct accordingly yes, but at-least there is no armor threat from China, terrain will not allow any armor action in Arunachal or any major action in Ladakh. India has enough armor to fight against Pakistan as it is. So unless the army has been told that they need to be ready for a major war against Pakistan by 2025 for which they will need overwhelming armor superiority, I don't see a reason why IA will be this hesitant in inducting Arjun. Perhaps the rumors about Indian generals being influenced by foreign seller lobbies are true.

But there is a problem with Indian military psyche that in the past of couple of decades they are always trying to procure top of the line armament and are not ready to accept an indigenous product that does 70-80% of the required job. Even though India can afford to do so as they have an over-whelming military superiority against us and we are no longer part of any Seato Cento type of alliance that will guarantee high quality military equipment. Especially the IA should have gone for more indigenization because as I said earlier quality of systems like armor will not dictate the battlefield results against China and they have enough systems to counter Pakistan.

While I accept Pakistan does not have the financial muscle or diplomatic clout that of India so our options for foreign procurement are limited, but still and perhaps because of it one can see that Pakistan is aggressively following an indigenization policy. If JF-17 does 70-80% job of a F-16 we are fine with it. And even though need for a top-tier 4++ gen fighter is obvious in PAF, and it can afford it if not in very large numbers, they are still persisting with improving JF-17. Perhaps in their calculus there is not going to be a war against India in a decade or so and they want to concentrate their resources on improving home grown systems rather than wasting on fancy new planes that will rot in hangers.

In our case perhaps this mentality not entirely wise but India can surely afford to do this. If done wisely in couple of decades instead of being world's largest arms importer India can be one of the largest exporters. But we don't know all the facts, like if Indian military has been told to prepare for a final showdown with Pakistan that will decide the fate of South Asia then they are well in their rights to only accept top of the line military hardware.

Nice surprise.

To find a very sensible, very insightful Pakistani writing about the issues involved in what is largely an Indian dilemma is so pleasant; and the usual gang of shitty mouths are absent.

Thanks very much, @Sharpshooter12. Good reading. If there's a worthwhile reaction, I'll write after reading @MilSpec 's note.

 

[Joe Shearer]

Keeping the debate aside that whether Arjun is better than T-90 or not, it is an indigenous product and will go a long way in helping India build its military industrial complex.

You have to see the threat perception and induct accordingly yes, but at-least there is no armor threat from China, terrain will not allow any armor action in Arunachal or any major action in Ladakh. India has enough armor to fight against Pakistan as it is. So unless the army has been told that they need to be ready for a major war against Pakistan by 2025 for which they will need overwhelming armor superiority, I don't see a reason why IA will be this hesitant in inducting Arjun. Perhaps the rumors about Indian generals being influenced by foreign seller lobbies are true.

I have no comment about your remarks above, and I hope that, taken with other remarks I have already made, will be comment enough.

But there is a problem with Indian military psyche that in the past of couple of decades they are always trying to procure top of the line armament and are not ready to accept an indigenous product that does 70-80% of the required job. Even though India can afford to do so as they have an over-whelming military superiority against us and we are no longer part of any Seato Cento type of alliance that will guarantee high quality military equipment. Especially the IA should have gone for more indigenization because as I said earlier quality of systems like armor will not dictate the battlefield results against China and they have enough systems to counter Pakistan.

This is the kind of catalogue shopping that kills all our efforts. People who write the specs are usually very young people doing the first and second drafts, and impressing their seniors about the kind of very good stuff that we might miss out on, IF we do not get the best.

To some extent, this is due to the trauma of the entire period from 47 to 65, when Pakistan was swaddled by the US, keen on building a ring-fence around the Soviets, and keen on giving Pakistan the best of the best. One of our Air Chiefs mentions how startled he was, as a very young pilot in 65, when an F 104 glided past him, and he found himself just staring at that beautiful machine! Then there were the Sabres, surrounded by a mystique that we now know was quite spurious, that they had their good days and their bad days, and that MiG 19s were pretty good machines, that even MiG 17s were combat-worthy against them in Korea. And down on the ground, there was the Patton mystique.

So the result now is that our pilots and our armoured corps jocks want the best; they've had enough of hearing how our neighbours have always had shining, glossy machines in the air and on the ground - including heavy artillery that we entirely lacked; our heaviest ordnance was 130 mm. Truthfully speaking, leaving out the festy fight talk that takes place on PDF, that seduces even my dear friend at #16, all responsible people know that the Su 30 is overwhelmingly powerful, that we have bought some of the best aircraft and best tanks (leaving the Arjun issue aside for a moment, and ignoring western tank models for the time being), and that this is the time to experiment.

While I accept Pakistan does not have the financial muscle or diplomatic clout that of India so our options for foreign procurement are limited, but still and perhaps because of it one can see that Pakistan is aggressively following an indigenization policy. If JF-17 does 70-80% job of a F-16 we are fine with it. And even though need for a top-tier 4++ gen fighter is obvious in PAF, and it can afford it if not in very large numbers, they are still persisting with improving JF-17. Perhaps in their calculus there is not going to be a war against India in a decade or so and they want to concentrate their resources on improving home grown systems rather than wasting on fancy new planes that will rot in hangers.

This is precisely what Pakistan is doing right: they have figured out that their production job is to move out planes, planes fit to fly and fight, and they are doing this job, production, with single-minded efficiency. Their friends, the Chinese, have further perfected it. Notice their destroyers and frigates; they make a series of three, to give the manufacturers some time to settle in the specification. There is NO change until a minimum production run of three units is met. And, as you have pointed out, they (the Pakistanis) are happy to accept a machine that helps them to do the bulk of the work planned, and to accept a quality criterion of some stiffness, but not a divine machine.

In our case perhaps this mentality not entirely wise but India can surely afford to do this. If done wisely in couple of decades instead of being world's largest arms importer India can be one of the largest exporters. But we don't know all the facts, like if Indian military has been told to prepare for a final showdown with Pakistan that will decide the fate of South Asia then they are well in their rights to only accept top of the line military hardware.

One never knows with this business, but a war with Pakistan is really not on the cards; some imbecile in the present administration might keep harping on it, but nothing is going to happen.

 

[Khafee]

some imbecile in the present administration might keep harping on it, but nothing is going to happen.

Well Imbeciles have to stay relevant, so they harp, and earn their keep. On each and every platform they dare open their mouth, the misery of the common man, which would multiply exponentially in the event of war, should be thrown at their face. They should be verbally attacked, directly, or indirectly, and the public made aware.

To NOT counter, their pocket lining agendas, is a crime in my humble opinion.

 

[oOo]

Check the history then bark, 1948, 1965 and even 1971 we fought very well and gave you hard kick at rear end but no other nation can defend their other part 1500 Kms away even Yahya decided to leave Bangladesh even before war, India just became reason.

Answer below questions please:
1- Why did you not had enough firepower in East? Who is responsible for your faith that "Security of East lies with west"?
2-Who stopped you from opening an all out front in west with India? If not a victory, it would have given you a lot of time for international powers to interject.

 

[Hakikat ve Hikmet]

And, now we can appreciate the sense of ownership of the Pak Ordu for whatever they can manage with a miniscule budget!!! Their this sense of "never say die" has kept them going through the most ferocious tempests 24/7!!!! For some even a solitary "Kung-fu" kick might be a decider, while for some the threat of "bombing to the Stone Age" induces them with the encouragement to play at the next higher level!!! What a strange land Selucus!!!!!

 

[Joe Shearer]

And, now we can appreciate the sense of ownership of the Pak Ordu for whatever they can manage with a miniscule budget!!! Their this sense of "never say die" has kept them going through the most ferocious tempests 24/7!!!! For some even a solitary "Kung-fu" kick might be a decider, while for some the threat of "bombing to the Stone Age" induces them with the encouragement to play at the next higher level!!! What a strange land Selucus!!!!!

Are you a Bengali masquerading as a Turk? The penny just dropped.

 

[ranadd]

Keeping the debate aside that whether Arjun is better than T-90 or not, it is an indigenous product and will go a long way in helping India build its military industrial complex.

You have to see the threat perception and induct accordingly yes, but at-least there is no armor threat from China, terrain will not allow any armor action in Arunachal or any major action in Ladakh. India has enough armor to fight against Pakistan as it is. So unless the army has been told that they need to be ready for a major war against Pakistan by 2025 for which they will need overwhelming armor superiority, I don't see a reason why IA will be this hesitant in inducting Arjun. Perhaps the rumors about Indian generals being influenced by foreign seller lobbies are true.

But there is a problem with Indian military psyche that in the past of couple of decades they are always trying to procure top of the line armament and are not ready to accept an indigenous product that does 70-80% of the required job. Even though India can afford to do so as they have an over-whelming military superiority against us and we are no longer part of any Seato Cento type of alliance that will guarantee high quality military equipment. Especially the IA should have gone for more indigenization because as I said earlier quality of systems like armor will not dictate the battlefield results against China and they have enough systems to counter Pakistan.

While I accept Pakistan does not have the financial muscle or diplomatic clout that of India so our options for foreign procurement are limited, but still and perhaps because of it one can see that Pakistan is aggressively following an indigenization policy. If JF-17 does 70-80% job of a F-16 we are fine with it. And even though need for a top-tier 4++ gen fighter is obvious in PAF, and it can afford it if not in very large numbers, they are still persisting with improving JF-17. Perhaps in their calculus there is not going to be a war against India in a decade or so and they want to concentrate their resources on improving home grown systems rather than wasting on fancy new planes that will rot in hangers.

In our case perhaps this mentality not entirely wise but India can surely afford to do this. If done wisely in couple of decades instead of being world's largest arms importer India can be one of the largest exporters. But we don't know all the facts, like if Indian military has been told to prepare for a final showdown with Pakistan that will decide the fate of South Asia then they are well in their rights to only accept top of the line military hardware.

A level headed response from a Pakistani!!.

The bold part is so true to India. Just because we have little bit of extra money and the option to buy, we buy.

Yes, little bit. India is still a piss poor third world country.