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I am asking did we said that or not?did we even claim that Arjun can take on Abrams ?then why you said Indians think their technology is superior to US?..is this trolling or not?

I'm not saying that you claim Arjun can take on Abram. Nice try, but stop putting words into my mouth.

I was just refering to the conversation about T-90 vs Abram and how T-90 vs Abram can affect the Arjun vs T-90 tank test. I'm not trolling. As matter of fact, I'm tying the T-90 vs Abram discussion to this thread so those discussions would not sound so off the topic.
 
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Thank you very much.....

Does those Abrams were down by Militants strapping women and children to bomb vests or by Militants using civilians as cover and fodder or by Suicide bombers??? :azn:

I guess you choose to ignore my earlier post. So my response to your post is to read my earlier post.
 
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One of the reason why IA downplays Arjun's performance is because DRDO does not give them cuts.
While someone who has used both in IA said Arjun is good tank. I read that in Arjun's thread here.

off the facts here buddy ...... while its true that there is an invariable exchange of some funds in every defence deal (and this holds true even for US) absolute generalisation can not be done and any such insinuation clearly shows a lack of clarity in understanding something called Perspective Planning in any Armed Forces (especially in IA which has a Directorate for Perspective Planning under IHQ-MOD)

Arjun's platform was only ready for induction after rectification of all drawbacks by 2006. Whereas to be seriously considered the same should have been achieved way back in 1997-98. By the time of Op Parakaram getting over, a need for urgent modernisation had been adequately drawn home.

now, inducting the same is of no use (for even the T-90s will be relegated to 2nd line of tanks by 2020) and the Dte of PP has clear ideas as to what it wants the army to be in 2020 under vision 2020, a project which is ongoing and being finetuned to supersede vision 2015.

induction of Arjun at this stage will entail complete overhaul of exiting structures in terms of administrative and logistical set ups. In addition add to it the costs of carriages, induction of bridging equipment in tremendous numbers etc etc which are additional costs. This is entail infusion of massive capital which may result in depletion of funds meant for modernisation/undertaking additional tasks within the army. So the economic and administrative sense does not come into picture

And there is yet no view of Abhay ... Project Abhay is not likely to be anything more than a term ... and we may end up upgrading the ICVs with BMP-3/BMP-T Termintors to replace the BMP-2 Saraths as more units are mechanised and converted to dual modes (mechanised in plains and normal infantry in mountains). So the asynchronous systems will be funny even if you have Arjun inducted (in terms of mechanised and armoured offensive operations)

just try to correlate things here and they shall fall into place
regards
 
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He is not anti-Russia. He just believe that the latest US weaponry is the world's best. Which is a consensus view world wide.

The Chinese guys and the Pakistani buys believe in that. I guess only some Indians in here believe that US weaponry is #2 behind India. Totally bias and lack of logic.

I guess you missed the part were he said "i hate Russians"

These are just add-on technologies to the chassis and turret, which still are redesigns or recycles of the T-72, which was rolled on by the Abrams in both Iraqi wars, though the former war was more impressive, since the A1 variant is an 80's platform, around the same time(Albeit a bit later) than the Soviet T-72.

Again most tanks the Abrams destroyed were not T-72's, and the tanks Iraq has lacked basic capabilities that Russian tanks had. Not to mention the Iraqi army was incompedent. Congradulations, to the Abrams for destroying T-55's and some Iraqi made tanks without night vision capabilities.

Doesn't need any, especially when the 125's from the T-72's can't penetrate the Depleted U layer to begin with.

Details of the M1 losses were given, including one where 25mm armour-piercing depleted uranium (AP-DU) rounds from an unidentified weapon disabled a US tank near Najaf after penetrating the engine compartment. Another Abrams was disabled near Karbala after a rocket-propelled grenade (RPG) penetrated the rear engine compartmen
http://www.janes.com/defence/land_forces/news/jdw/jdw030620_1_n.shtml

As of March 2005, approximately 80 Abrams tanks were forced out of action by enemy attacks

23 M1A1s were taken out of service in the Gulf[10] and one of these losses resulted in crew deaths from Iraqi fire.

http://rds.yahoo.com/_ylt=A0oGkidrP...*http%3a//en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M1_Abrams


Western experts regard the Merkava as the best protected tank in the world. With that being said, the Merkava's got punished in Lebonon with Russian RPG's, so were does that put the Abrams?



What you see when you google that are in fact not losses to the enemy, but rather losses to friendly fire. More Abrams were destroyed by Mavericks and AGM-114's than useless RPG's which don't even follow a reasonably straight trajectory.




You're contridicting yourself. First, the Abrams armour can't be penatrated, then most Abrams were destroyed with Mavericks. FYI roadside bombs have taken out scores of Abrams, and you have to remember the blast from a road side bomb is not concintrated like a 125 mm round is.

You know what Russian RPG's did to the Merkava, there shouldn't even be any debating what it can do to the Abrams.

And please explain why the American would bomb their own tanks via mavericks and AGM-114's. It's a fact that the US military salvages everything.

And back then, the Abrams only existed in the A1 variant, without all the state of the art electrics that the SEP version comes packaged in today. Thus, I say it was a fairly even match, especially when only ~200-300 of them were sent in to fight from the start, to outmatch and outgun more than 1:3 in the war. FYI, those were Abram kills alone, not air kills.

The actual numbers of Abrams M1 and M1A1 tanks deployed to the Gulf War (according to official DOD sources) are as follows: A total of 1,848 M1A1 and M1A1

http://rds.yahoo.com/_ylt=A0oGkyK4J...rity.org/military/systems/ground/m1-intro.htm
 
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Haha, hilarious! Having 1.5K bhp @ ~60t is world class now? Basically, if I integrate 3 twin turbos and add a few weigts to my car+throw in a few machines guns, my car would become a world class tank too? Buddy, it's not about the paper specs, but rather about the secret features which it holds. Why is the M1 such a featured tank? Answer? It's depleted U armor, capable of fending off multiple 125's.

can u please elaborate on Kanchan type armour (with further DU reinforcements) which is being graded as mk. II and if it is same as some car's body? it shall be really interesting to know your insights into the composite armour we have and the one which you have on M1A2!!!

And about multiple 125's being fended off ... may i assure you that it holds for only HEAT/HESH shaped and not KE penetrators ......

now am sure you shall be able to add up KE penetrators lest we deviate
 
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In terms of weaponry, the US is miles ahead of others. Everyone else is gunning for the distant 2nd. Its like some Olympic competitoin, we know who is going to win the gold. Its the battle for the silver that is interesting.

So if something is a good or a junk is all relative to what its compare with. The Abram tank had proven its mark in battle. The one tank it had encountered is the T-72. And Abram definitely owns T-72 in the Iraqi desert. As for T-90 Vs M1A2, I would be very surprise if T-90 can compete against M1A2.

please go to iraqi army composition in armour and republican guards and the type of tanks held ....

also please go through KE penetrators deployed by US with DU head and M1A1s deployed by Armoured Div there with DU reinforcement to the composite armours

in addition go through data on direct Iraqi tank losses in a head to head confrontation without any air back up ...

you shall be surprised at your lack of knowledge about Gulf War I
 
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Why do u have to miss it buddy, we already have 45 Arjuns in service, and after these trials we will have more of them...

On this thread Bhai :rofl: Abrams, T-72, T-55 :blah::blah:

Sorry for providing incomplete information :smitten:
 
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And back then, the Abrams only existed in the A1 variant, without all the state of the art electrics that the SEP version comes packaged in today. Thus, I say it was a fairly even match, especially when only ~200-300 of them were sent in to fight from the start, to outmatch and outgun more than 1:3 in the war. FYI, those were Abram kills alone, not air kills.

any links to substantiated portion? I missed it somehow inspite of extensive reading
 
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Doesn't need any, especially when the 125's from the T-72's can't penetrate the Depleted U layer to begin with.

Oh really??? I hope you are referring ONLY to HEAT/HESHs here and NOT KE Projectiles sir ......


What you see when you google that are in fact not losses to the enemy, but rather losses to friendly fire. More Abrams were destroyed by Mavericks and AGM-114's than useless RPG's which don't even follow a reasonably straight trajectory.

useless RPG??? Specs of RPG-18 will shed some light on the issue as also a comparative analysis in terms of M1A2 armour protection ....!
 
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Why do u have to miss it buddy, we already have 45 Arjuns in service, and after these trials we will have more of them...

no chances .... its a political exercise .... you need to justify the costs which have to be incurred to field a new system in 1000s (not a few scores here) without having a life expectancy beyond next 10 years ...... as also lacking a suitable ICV/APC to be effective in mechanized warfare which is a cornerstone of the new cold start doctrine
 
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any links to substantiated portion? I missed it somehow inspite of extensive reading

Either someone is wrong or someone is lying becaue this is what i found:

The actual numbers of Abrams M1 and M1A1 tanks deployed to the Gulf War (according to official DOD sources) are as follows: A total of 1,848 M1A1 and M1A1 "Heavy Armor" (or HA) tanks were deployed between the US Army and Marine Corp (who fielded 16 M1A1's and 60 M1A1(HA) tanks).

M1 Abrams Main Battle Tank
 
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Either someone is wrong or someone is lying becaue this is what i found:

The actual numbers of Abrams M1 and M1A1 tanks deployed to the Gulf War (according to official DOD sources) are as follows: A total of 1,848 M1A1 and M1A1 "Heavy Armor" (or HA) tanks were deployed between the US Army and Marine Corp (who fielded 16 M1A1's and 60 M1A1(HA) tanks).

M1 Abrams Main Battle Tank


seems exaggeration of little bit of info here to suggestions of high T-72 kill with insignificant armour assets in place.
actually i saw the whole discussion going awry ....

there was a claim of high kill ratios achieved against T-72s .... which was surprising as there was no direct significant confrontation of republican guards with US and T-72s were held by Republican Guards Division and not Iraqi Regular Army Armour Corps ... which was already a load of crap

plus they had use of APFSDs on US side and Iraqi had none ..... and by that time the M1A1 was DU protected which was introduced as an emergency add on before onset of war in 1991. only US Marines M-60s were the ones not having the same ......

as for invincibility .... well any tandem warhead of a modern RPG (RPG-18) can penetrate with some effect with multiple effort and a good KE projectile (APFSD Sabot) can definitely go through in first shot .....

now the only positive side which is noteworthy is that there has always been a stress on air cover for US armour .... as a result of which an opposing tank is neutralised well before its able to fire at M1s or even if it is ..... it is immediately neutralised ....

What has been the success attribute is not the piece, but the US precision of conduct of operations with adequate cover and ensuring superior employment of firepower and assets ..... which is a force multiplier on its own
 
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