Arguments of choosing JF-17 Thunder over JAS-39 Gripen

[SBD-3]

every one agrees to this
Thunder is the best we could have under current circumstances
I think thread should be choosing Griffon over Falcon rather than Thunder

 

[Parashuram1]

I feel that you people should have inducted Gripen instead of F-16s in first place. Considering that your shoulders often rub with the American government especially when it comes to regional issues which is often returned with some sort of weapons sanctions , Gripen would have been a better choice.

Apart from it being my personal favourite, it is known for shortest re-arming time as compared to other fighters. Landing on roads, it takes barely 10 mins for a crew of 5 to re-arm it. In my opinion a Gripen, JF-17, J-10 would have been a better combination than F-16 due to heavy political considerations.

As of today, I don't think there's any point. Your indigenous aircraft can be inducted at any time without undergoing the cumbersome international purchase procedure and that's the advantage you have as a regional air force. Gripen on the other hand has operational advantages such as excellent datalink, excellent maintainability, great performance and attractive aesthetics apart from a lethal package of ordinance it can carry.

 

[SQ8]

With regards JF17 being free from embargos Just one point.

The Engine is Russian.

The Avionics /radar & weapons 100% chinease.

The Airframe is being assembled in Pakistan from parts supplied by China.

In theory China could completely HALT thunder (but i realise it won,t happen)
they6 are your allys

You might wanna read the last line again and again.
The engines too arent an issue, The Indian government tried it and got Putin to make a boo boo till he realised that China too buys engines from Russia so its going to make his cash strapped manufacturers squeal.. so RD-33's will keep coming as well.
But everybody has a right to give theories for some ...reason.

Now to the gentleman with the Gripen proposal, read my last post and you will realize why that option was not exercised.

 

[Parashuram1]

You might wanna read the last line again and again.
The engines too arent an issue, The Indian government tried it and got Putin to make a boo boo till he realised that China too buys engines from Russia so its going to make his cash strapped manufacturers squeal.. so RD-33's will keep coming as well.
But everybody has a right to give theories for some ...reason.

Now to the gentleman with the Gripen proposal, read my last post and you will realize why that option was not exercised.

Well, now it won't really matter anymore even if Russians do finally take heed to New Delhi's concerns isn't it? After checking through some threads especially in China Defense, I have a feeling that a Chinese engine for your fighter is on the way. So whether or not Russians put a stop to supply, it won't affect you.

Another thing that neutralizes the Russian theory is that Chinese have already been rumoured to have bought around 800-1,000 engines of this RD-93 kind for the sake of re-exports with their fighter around the world. So once they acquired the engines, the contract terminates.

 

[Sinnerman108]

The same goes for the Thunder, It has a power PC processor which has the ability to take data from multiple sensors and present it to the pilot in a single format. The actual limitations for this were programming protocols that would allow for all the componenets to interact on the same hardware bus and present their data in a common format.
In previous aircraft Ada was used which is a very secure but also a very terse and difficult language. Finding programmers for Ada is difficult, since you need very good ones to understand the high level of encapsulation in Ada programming. The sensor fusion on the F-22 is an achievment by any standards since they had to use Ada and write millions if not billions of lines of code and verify them. Considering Ada programmers are a relatively rare recource that is a feat.
.

Hold it !
u said too much, too fast.
you are suggesting JF-17 uses Power PC ( a.k.a IBM P-Series processor) ?

I am not sure if that is correct. If you say it uses a RISC processor that will be fine.


Secondly you made some claims about ADA and C++ etc.

Allow me, to add,

ADA is a far simpler language then C++,

C++ was chosen only because the programmers are easier to find
and because some gents thought lower level, thus good !

Another reason for dropping ADA, was because we couldn't have the same interpreters/compilers that the Americans use, this would mean equivalent code written by us and them, would differ in performance.

ADA family of language is excellent in symbol representation and thus ideal for sensor fusion; if you choose to call it that,
here in "not so top secret group" we call it integration and interfacing.

Doing the same in C++ is difficult and a long process.

Just the testing and maintenance of C++ code is a real chore in it self.

Americans still use ADA because of legacy support issue, and because they can manufacture which processor which are optimized at chip level for running ADA.

Yes the programmers deserve applause for doing some thing in C++ which it is not designed for.

 

[MastanKhan]

I know Sir MK would not be convinced, but I am still trying.

California consults with China about high-speed rail



Hi,

Thanks for your post---indeed calif will consult with the chinese about the high speed rail----but when it comes to diesel locomotives----none better than the u s---.

First---u s has no experience in high speed rail---second---chinese labour cost is lot lower as compared to the japanese or the french.

The french won't get the contract because the american have something going against the french----the japanese won't get the contract because americans are also tired of japanese superiority---.

The backlash at TOYOTA's unintended acceleration and brake problems is a big issue---did the GM and FORD not have bigger and more serious problems than toyota---yes they did---but toyota got lambasted being japanese.

So---china gets the vote on the hi speed train by default.

 

[SQ8]

Hold it !
u said too much, too fast.
you are suggesting JF-17 uses Power PC ( a.k.a IBM P-Series processor) ?

I am not sure if that is correct. If you say it uses a RISC processor that will be fine.


Secondly you made some claims about ADA and C++ etc.

Allow me, to add,

ADA is a far simpler language then C++,

C++ was chosen only because the programmers are easier to find
and because some gents thought lower level, thus good !

Another reason for dropping ADA, was because we couldn't have the same interpreters/compilers that the Americans use, this would mean equivalent code written by us and them, would differ in performance.

ADA family of language is excellent in symbol representation and thus ideal for sensor fusion; if you choose to call it that,
here in "not so top secret group" we call it integration and interfacing.

Doing the same in C++ is difficult and a long process.

Just the testing and maintenance of C++ code is a real chore in it self.

Americans still use ADA because of legacy support issue, and because they can manufacture which processor which are optimized at chip level for running ADA.

Yes the programmers deserve applause for doing some thing in C++ which it is not designed for.

Nope.. power PC, now made by freescale and a few other manufacturers , yes its RISC..
Yes ADA is simpler in sensor fusion for the reason you stated, it also has the advantage of being able to sort our bugs at compiler level.
If the issue was with integration and interfacing then the F-35 should be the last aircraft using C++. The simple reason being that with Ada they had to manufacture an ASIC chip every time they intended to upgrade the system..which usually had to be a mil std.
with C++ you can pick a COTs processor and use it on the system and simply swap the processor when you need to do an upgrade instead of going to square one and rewrite code for the new chip. TI has generated new protocols for C++ usage in aviation and these augment any automatic exception handling issues that C++ had when compared to ada.
The JSF code would probably be developed using the AdaMulti IDE which supports ada 95, C++ embedded, C and fortran. Thus the final assembly code is fairly robust in nature. This still does not take the load of the C++ programmers who must check and recheck for memory leaks, exception handling etc. There is also a usage of Autocoding ala Simulink and that helps to reduce the coding time.
Choosing C++ for our jet had the same motivation, it is a lot easier to obtain a commercial Power PC than a mil-std SOC. Also while ada may have its advantages, we don't hold a base of good ada programmers and it would take a C++ guy like me a few months to even call myself proficient in the language, let alone train a whole team for application's development and your integration and interfacing. Then you have to pay for a good Ada compiler which is costly..now considering that most radars need a DSP in some form or the other you need to know what system they are running, the Chinese and quite a few of our own military research blocs like using the TI DSP series for its excellent support and the little difference in programming technique for its Mil-std and commercial DSP's. Ti commercial DSP's run on C++ and are used in a majority of applications including the one in your Iphone. Since this support for the system is widely available it makes sense to source programmers from C++ for processors like these.

Now if the programmers on the JSF need to interface stuff for their power PC's from the various sensors they will probably develop a protocol which will perform the various data transfers and handshakes within the system. Again this will have to take into account clock times for the processor, incoming voltage levels from the sensors...yada yada.
Now, if all these parameters had to be redone every time they needed to change the processor on the system or change a sensor it would be hell for the designers which has to be done for Ada. However I will look into any news of this changing..right now I dont see it.. not for mil-std processors.
Power-PC's can also use Ada, but then why bother in the first place if you have C++ programmers available.

Integration and interfacing in the public unclassified domain isn't at all difficult either, compilers for C++ have improved a lot over the years and plus, having a large base of C++ programmers available allows for the beta testing to be done faster. right now I am working with a team on OMAP's and integrating data from a vibration sensor, RPM reader, fuel flow sensor..and as of now, we designed our own protocol on C++ and the integration is going smoothly..so I don't think even in the very very top secret domains of Kamra people should be having too much of an issue unless they have dumb programmers or engineers not willing to think out of the box.

 

[emotionless_teenage]

how on earth does the discussion being so long without even mentioning the mission requirement of these aircrafts

Gripen is designed to combat soviet invasion from anywhere(dispersed operation),which means the aircraft is desinged to be able to take of on short runway(or anything with a tarmac on it) and maintained by a small crew(5 conscript in Sweden Air Force doctrine)
The Swedes has evaluated both F/A-18 and F-16 (as Viggen replacement)before but instead opting for a new aircraft designed specially for their need.

but does this capability needed by PAF?does the risk of the whole country being overrun by them indians being included by top brass strategy.i doubt it.

how about JF-17.what is the requirement of the aircraft when it was still in R&D?how would JF-17 being deployed?

 

[MastanKhan]

how on earth does the discussion being so long without even mentioning the mission requirement of these aircrafts

Gripen is designed to combat soviet invasion from anywhere(dispersed operation),which means the aircraft is desinged to be able to take of on short runway(or anything with a tarmac on it) and maintained by a small crew(5 conscript in Sweden Air Force doctrine)
The Swedes has evaluated both F/A-18 and F-16 (as Viggen replacement)before but instead opting for a new aircraft designed specially for their need.

but does this capability needed by PAF?does the risk of the whole country being overrun by them indians being included by top brass strategy.i doubt it.

how about JF-17.what is the requirement of the aircraft when it was still in R&D?how would JF-17 being deployed?

Hi,

Thanks for pointing that out. Most pakistanis don't understand that concept---.

Off course that capability is needed by the pak air force---to counter the threat of SU 30's, the mig's 219/29---jaguars m2ks.

Pak is going for ground attack aircraft---who is going to protect them from the top and air superiority fighters.

 

[SBD-3]

here is another good reason for that...

[edit] 1990–2001: The Lost Decade
In 1990, the Pressler Amendment banned most economic and military assistance to Pakistan. However, there were some nations sympathetic to Pakistan and offered its combat aircraft to Pakistan. Desperate for a new high-tech combat aircraft, between late 1990 and 1993 the PAF evaluated the European Panavia Tornado MRCA (multi-role combat aircraft) and rejected it. The Mirage 2000E and a misleading offer from Poland for the supply of MiG-29 and Su-27 were also considered but nothing materialised. In 1992 the PAF again looked at the Mirage 2000, reviving a proposal from the early 1980s to procure around 20-40 aircraft, but again a sale did not occur because France did not want to sell a fully-capable version due to political reasons. In August 1994 the PAF was offered the Saab JAS-39 Gripen by Sweden, but again the sale did not occur because 20% of the Gripen's components were from the U.S. and Pakistan was still under U.S. sanctions.[43]

In mid-1992 Pakistan was close to signing a contract for the supply of 40 Dassault Mirage 2000, equipped with Thomson-CSF RDM/7 radars, from France.[44]

In mid-1994 it was reported that the Russian manufacturers Sukhoi and Mikoyan were offering the Su-27 and MiG-29.[45] But Pakistan was later reported to be negotiating for supply of the Dassault Mirage 2000-5.[46] French and Russian teams visited Pakistan on 27 November 1994 and it was speculated that interest in the Russian aircraft was to pressure France into reducing the price of the Mirage 2000. Stated requirement was for up to 40 aircraft

now looking at the thunder

Pakistan and China signed the Letter of Intent for the joint development of the JF-17 (then called "Super-7") in 1998, followed by the signing of the Contract in 1999. The project got delayed due to the inability to find an avionics and radar package. In 2001, the Pakistan Air Force recommended that the airframe design be de-coupled from the avionics and radar systems for the aircraft to avoid further delay. This resulted in a fresh impetus to the project and the design was finalized and 'frozen' in 2001

now considering the senario before 9/11...PAF honestly was not left with a suitable alternative..so IMHO an unavoidable decision

 

[ptldM3]

It is true the Gripen is largely made up of US components as well as other foreign components.

 

[SBD-3]

It is true the Gripen is largely made up of US components as well as other foreign components.

but I think this would be the proposed ToT with SAAB, Brazil deal (which has now fallen)

 

[houshanghai]

sorry ,i Reply this old posts

i only insert some new jf17 and jas39 pics and HD videos


Thailand jas39

 

[houshanghai]

jas39

jf17

Skrydstrup Airshow 2010

JF-17 Pakistan Air Force Air Show china 2010

 

[shanixee]

So wats the result...which plane is better...JF17 or Grippen....??? if they face each other and with same conditions like Awacs.. and same pilots skills...who will turn out to be the winner..??