Another blunder of Experienced Govt: Most expansive solar power project

[AZADPAKISTAN2009]

Solar , would be ideal if we use the Balouchistan Desert , and convert 5% land into solar farms

That would generate enough energy to fuel all country


Hydro carbon = Death of planet / Life , and cancer / pollution etc

 

[Daneshmand]

Would you be so kind to shed more light, or point me to a more reliable source, as to why Wind and Solar Thermal power are so expensive?

Sure. You can search the internet for detailed reasons. But basically it is the nature of these technologies. For instance, the cost of equipment per MW of capacity is expensive, then you have the problem of distributed generation which means a more elaborate and expensive grid system (since it is not a single plant in a single locality producing electricity but thousands and and thousands of wind turbines and solar panels dotting the landscape over a large area). And then comes the problem of storing the electricity in some form since sun is not shining all the time or the wind is not blowing all the day so you need some kind of a back up system or electricity storage system which are very expensive.

Also keep in mind that physics puts a maximum theoretical efficiency limit for wind and photovoltaic solar technologies. In case of wind turbine the Betz law says that the maximum efficiency of a wind turbine can not exceed 59.3%. In practice even the most advanced technology wind turbines have a hard time to reach 45% efficiency under ideal conditions which rarely happen. So in real world even with best technology you are going to operate well below this limit.

Physics similarly puts the upper theoretical efficiency of a solar cell at 33%. Even with some technological gimmickry this limit has not gone above 45% in lab conditions. In real world, 25% is considered the best practical available efficiency.

Such technologies can not compete dollar for dollar unless the cost of a barrel of oil goes above 250 dollars. The only way to prop these technologies on a massive scale is to subsidize them one way or another. It is just a matter of physics and economics.

Solar , would be ideal if we use the Balouchistan Desert , and convert 5% land into solar farms

That would generate enough energy to fuel all country


Hydro carbon = Death of planet / Life , and cancer / pollution etc

Good luck with that!

 

[kamrananvaar]

After seeing both of your discussion, this is THE PERFECT example of.....a Blind leading a Blind



Would you like to post those "Tropical Nation's" GDP's, internal economy, security and global financial situation too? And while you are at it, try to post total lost revenue for unpaid electric consumption (stealing electricity, which, in Pakistan, results in losing over 30% of the entire electric production).

I bet you, their electric drainage or losses are MUCH less to non-existent!!! Hence the reason for the distribution network to purchase at a higher price.

Plus, if you are introducing a NEW Tech (Solar energy production, which is extremely important for Pakistan to get, master it, and later use it in different items across the country), you always pay more. Until the rules of "economies of scales" are applicable (please google economies of scale before just posting stuff without proper understanding of the real issue).

Have a look at another thread
Loadshedding to end-2017 PM ..After failing in past a new promise .. LOL | Page 3
In there shah and daneshmand are having a good discussion , quite enlightening actually without the who supports which camp , you will get the idea of whats going on .
Cheapest to produce electricity is coal with a second best gas as its very cheap nowa days .
Solar , wind look good on the resume but what we need is cheaaap energy so our industries run .

 

[Viper0011.]

Cheapest to produce electricity is coal with a second best gas as its very cheap nowa days .
Solar , wind look good on the resume but what we need is cheaaap energy so our industries run .

I agree with you. I'd be the last person to suggest to go buy something for $ 5 when you can get it for $ 3......that's common sense. However, there are issues here with Solar energy. Here are a couple of them:

1) Coal plants: yes, I agree, much cheaper AT THE END. But that means, the entire coal infrastructure (Supply Chain) has to be built. Supply Routes through railroad, trucks, etc, etc. A Coal based plant needs constant coal supplies. You have one central highway from British Era currently linking the entire country. The motorways will become backbone after the CPEC project makes sure the network of highways exists in Pakistan. So till then, what do you do? Sit around, make your industry suffer and not do business?

2) Strategic Issues: The GSP Plus from the European countries is a three year deal. Let's say, if you made a BILLION in profit in these three years (just a small example, not real numbers as they should be much higher). So by increasing economic throughout, providing millions jobs, and producing a billion in profit, say you paid $ 50 million extra in energy as Solar is the quickest way to get energy and yes, a little more expensive (in this case, you don't have railroads or highways established with Coal supply routes yet).

So really, you lost $ 50 million (called the "Opportunity Cost") but STILL made $ 950 million profit (minusing the extra electric charge you paid, millions of jobs, running industry, etc, etc)......you don't think it makes sense? I think it makes ALL the sense in the world to do this.

3) Cost - Benefit Reasons: Let's talk about Solar tech being expensive. It is primarily because it is NEW to Pakistan. Going forward, Pakistani companies will be producing these Solar cells and peripherals. That would start ANOTHER round of industry, job creation, etc and will introduce Pakistan to the Solar tech industry as an established player.

So as Pakistan made parts hit the market, OR the Solar plants grow in number, the economies of scale will be reached and the cost would drop overall towards the end of the last few plants (buying one car is more expensive, cutting a deal with a dealer to buy ten, is always cheaper). So eventually, what you are paying $ 5 for, today, will become $ 2-3 in the long run after all Solar based plants start to work. You can further drop it to $ 1-2, if everything was made in Pakistan (long term vision).

4) Future Prospects with Solar Tech for Pakistan: Lastly, Solar technologies are being used in Buildings, Homes, Water Pumps, Ships, Electric Turbines, Satellites, Computers, Military applications and hardware, etc, etc. For a country like Pakistan, it is a Must-To-Master technology.

By putting in plants from Chinese help is killing two birds with one stone, immediately or much quicker, generating electricity and also, learning to use Solar tech. And later on, expanding its use inside Pakistan and earn billions long term as an industry.

WHY complain about some additional millions being spent when there is a MUCH longer term strategy which would start a whole new industry in the country, resulting in billions of business in the future???

When you go to school to learn, you pay for it. Does that mean the education is a waste or time and money when its going to provide you with income all of your life? Same rule applies here.