Ancient Man and His First Civilizations.Proving Aryan Invasion Theory is a myth and severe lie

[Azizam]

Brain damaged rather. Bengali and intellectual should not be used in the same sentence.

WOW! and you people come to lecture us about treating our minorities equally?

 

[scorpionx]

Brain damaged rather. Bengali and intellectual should not be used in the same sentence.

Yes,yes off course. Why I am not surprised?Attacking ethnicity after running out of plausible arguments is the age old signature of Intellectual bankruptcy of the newest breed of illiterate pseudo nationals who neither have a decent knowledge about the history of their own country, nor their character possess a minimum level of decency and respect for those who "do not agree" with their own idea of an Utopian world.

When did I lecture Sri Lankans? Where did I say we must ill treat Bengalis? Just that Bengali intellectual is an oxymoronic term.

Just like logical academic discussion and pseudo Hindus like you never went parallel through out human history.

 

[manlion]

Im talking about autosomal genetic data, not haplogroups.

my point is whether you accept one of the hypothesis that the Brahuis are the isolated people of IVC ?

If your answer is No, there is nothing to discuss.

I merely mentioned Brahui to a poster's remark on Dravida , where the Hindu text refers to the Chera, Chola and Pandya Kingdoms of ancient Tamilnadu

If you answer is Yes - then you need to examine the IVC language hypothesis - Elamo - proto Dravidian by linguists David McAlpin and Asko Parpola

I don't see the need to introduce a new postulate ASI / ANI, the discussion is on language not genetics.

 

[Joe Shearer]

Well, as I explained before Sinhalese means the "people of Sri Lanka" which is a collection of multiple races that lived in the island and eventually formed one ethnic identity. SInhalese is not a race that you can take a sample and generalize the whole ethnic group based on that selected sample. This is a common mistake that most of PDF members seem to make here.


What did you mean to say? You strike to me as a very educated person. I am interested to learn from your point of view. Do you have any information regarding the origin of Sinhalese?

Just that I had never heard of Greeks and the Kamboja tribe in association with Sri Lanka. Tamils, yes, Bengali or Odiya, yes, those two, no.

The Greeks need no introduction.

The Kamboja are a fascinating tribe, although much of the information that we have regarding them is pre-historic, based on references in literature. The Parama Kamboja are listed as an outlying member of the tribes that were identified at various times, most particularly in the epic, the Mahabharata, as tribes that joined the final battle. In that epic, they were described as tall, fair, fierce in battle, mounted on superb horseflesh, and familiar with fighting for others (perhaps a reference to mercenary occupation as soldiers). They were reputed to live in what is today the Ferghana region, part of modern Tajikistan, and they seem to have spoken a version of Indo-Aryan already considered archaic at that time, with verbs and usages that were listed by grammarians as no longer canonical within the mainstream of Indo-Aryan.

Some of the references seem to indicate that they may have formed part of the Scythian grouping; certainly in much later years, at the time of the Xiongnu onslaught on the Kushana/Yueh Chi/Tocharians in the Tarim Basin, there were Scythians, great horsemen with superb horses, living in the Ferghana region, speaking most probably a version of east Iranian. The repeated onslaughts of the Xiongnu broke the back of the Tarim kingdom, sent the Tocharians flying west, uprooting the Scythians and the associated Pahlavas and pushing these two tribes first into northern Afghanistan, then deeper still into what was known to the Persians and Greeks as Arachosia. The dates are post-Bactrian Greek; it was the incursion of the Scythians and the Pahlavas that destroyed the kingdoms of Bactria. This region of Arachosia therefore became Sakasthan, thence in modern usage Seistan. The Scythians/Sakas went on to conquer and dominate large tracts of western India, until they were replaced by the Kushana themsellves.

The name of the Kamboja tribe, whether a member of the Scythian ethnic grouping or not, survives prominently in the Punjab and as far east as the UP. They were known as good soldiers and several prominent military personalities, in the middle ages as well as in contemporary times, bear that name.

There are traces and mysterious hints that they may have penetrated into Tibet. How far in is not known; we also do not know for certain how the name bobs up in south-east Asia, as the name for the Khmer, as Cambodge.

These are highly speculative references and do not form part of history, in a proper sense. They are reproduced purely for the sake of the excursion into Sri Lankan history.

 

[manlion]

Predominantly Bengali origin[edit]



These findings are compatible with the historical chronicles the Mahavamsa and Dipavamsa. Which describe a Vanga prince (Prince Vijaya)from Sinhapura in Lata or Lala of being an early settler of Sri Lanka and the progenitor of the Sinhalese. The Vangas are generally identified as Bengalis. On the other hand, Lata is identified with modern day Gujarat, and Sinhapura with modern Sihor in the Kathiawar peninsular of Gujarat. Furthermore, the Mahawamsa states that Vijaya landed first at Supparaka (identified with modern Sopara, in the Thane distrcit of Maharashtra), while the Dipavamsa mentions 'Suppara' and a further intermediate port, Bharukkaccha (modern Bharuch, a port in Gujarat, at the mouth of theNarmada). Vijaya's grandfather was reputed to be a Lion, and Lions have not lived in Bengal in historic times, while they have in Gujarat so it was possible that the Lion image was either borrowed or..

Sinhala chauvinists are capable of twisting and turning anything.

As per your mythological Mahabharata inspired Buddhist chronicle Mahavamsa, Thug Vijaya landed on Lankan shores with 700 followers who later married Pandyan women after committing genocide of the local indigenous tribe - veddas

So it remains a mystery how the 700 could later account for majority 72 % genetic admixture with Bengali ?

 

[INDIC]

It is obvious that a name based on mythology, for instance, Europe from the myth of Europa, need not be mythological itself, and is a real name. So, too, in the case of Bharata Varsha, or Bharatavarsha.

Regarding the Indian use of Dravida, it is meaningless to state that "Indian scriptures always referred Dravida as a region extended to Chola, Chera, and Pandya." What does that mean?

That there were no exceptions? That could be because of the etymology of the word in Sanskrit.

That the region ruled by Chola, Chera and Pandya was collectively known as Dravida? That there was no other meaning of Dravida, other than this, a region in India? In Sanskrit, there are two words in use, transliterated into English as Dravida; one word is Dravida, Tamil, and the other is Draavida, of the Tamils. The second may be used of a region; surely not the first?

Again, the erroneous racist theories of the nineteenth century counterposed a Dravidian race to the Aryan race, and both are dismissed today as not fit for rational consideration, because of their grotesque misuse and horrible consequences of racist theories, with a significant focus on the use of the word 'Aryan' as the name of a race in real life. It is widely accepted today that Dravidian can mean the family of languages grouped as that, ie, Tamil, Malayalam, Telugu and Kannada, Tulu. This is certainly an improvement over the narrow sense in which Dravida was used in Sanskrit, for instance, and expands the scope of the word to those very different languages used in south India. The word is also concurrently used in several other contexts; none of those necessarily is exclusive.

Coming to the very different uses of the word Aryan and its use in a combination as Indo-Aryan, it is not clear what is objectionable about the word Aryan being used in combined form to name a language in the language tree descended from PIE. Surely it is not rocket science to understand that a word used in one context, for instance, Latin, might refer to something entirely different in combination, such as Latin America.

Dravida which itself has a Sanskrit origin was a kingdom in North Tamil Nadu, but the same term 'Dravida' was extended to Kanchi, Chola, Chera and Pandya as a geographical term.

 

[faithfulguy]

By the way, I can't understand why people like @faithfulguy and @Fattyacids so keen in inventing idiotic history for Indian identity based on things in antiquity that happened 3000-4000 years ago when their own history is original Hans of Hwang Ho river plains defeating so called Cooked and Uncooked Barbarians and assimilating them as Han Chinese. The Southern China was still a non-Han majority territory just 1000 years back when late Tang Dynasty assimilated Southern China as Han Chinese.

I'm not inventing history when I talk about Aryan invasion of India. Its base on linguistic studies that proved the Aryan language speaker entered and displace the native Dravidian language speakers while the Dravidian language speakers were pushed down toward southern India. How difficult is it to accept this proven fact?

 

[INDIC]

I'm not inventing history when I talk about Aryan invasion of India. Its base on linguistic studies that proved the Aryan language speaker entered and displace the native Dravidian language speakers while the Dravidian language speakers were pushed down toward southern India. How difficult is it to accept this proven fact?

How a linguistic similarity proved that people were displaced to South India. BTW even with a similarity of language, Iranians share a little genetic similarity with Indians. Come back with a strong proof instead of talking nonesense.

BTW the drying of Saraswati river(which today remains as Ghaggar-Hakra) mentioned in Rigveda happened around 1900BC proved by satellite imagining and other research, so how it was recorded in Rigveda if so called Aryans came after that.

 

[Vinod2070]

I feel it necessary to violate one of my principles and to write about the lack of content in some posts. A lack of content which is sought to be balanced by comment on earlier posters and their views. Taking that as an example, this time let us consider the views of our posterj.

Is it the frequency with which wrong claims are made that exercise interest sufficiently to warrant an intervention? If the mistake has been pointed out and strictures applied, any additional mentions do seem to be laboured.

Every member of PDF should presumably be grateful that a member has got himself a book last weekend and is reading that. The book itself is not mentioned, but that should not inhibit our enthusiasm. That book, whichever it was, apparently describes the very precise markers of 'leftist' historians. One's obvious question: who are these and how are they grouped as leftist? Who are the non-leftists, or are there none?

We are then introduced to an eye-opening, in this case, an eye-opening due to an extremely vitriolic reaction to Rajiv Malhotra's initiative to write about Indian contributions to science. Whose was this reaction? And what elements struck our poster as being extremely vitriolic?

Perhaps 'the book' will contribute some context. Perhaps.

I will assume the lack of content here is due to just cynicism.

So much for the 'losers', 'brainwashed parrots', 'pathetic idiots' and 'ignorant idiots'.

Considering that the term Hinduism used for the religion is a very late usage itself, our poster does not apparently find it ironical to use this very recent term to describe a system of beliefs which goes back to Vedic times, and is described as the 'oldest religion in the world'.

Again the focus on semantics and not on the issue.

A scholar like you can certainly do much better. While we surely have major differences in opinions, it doesn't mean personal differences and being cynical like this.

आपको शोभा नहीं देता.
আপনার জন্য উপযুক্ত কি না.

Sorry if the Bengali translation is off the mark. I don't read and write the language.

 

[Hermione]

Yes,yes off course. Why I am not surprised?Attacking ethnicity after running out of plausible arguments is the age old signature of Intellectual bankruptcy of the newest breed of illiterate pseudo nationals who neither have a decent knowledge about the history of their own country, nor their character possess a minimum level of decency and respect for those who "do not agree" with their own idea of an Utopian world.



Just like logical academic discussion and pseudo Hindus like you never went parallel through out human history.

You can see the Bengali "intellectual" character which possesses maximum level of decency and respect for those who "do not agree" with their idea in the liberal usage of negative ratings by one gasbag Pengali intellectual. LOL.

 

[KingMamba]

Typical Bengali intellectual who has been brainwashed by communism,

He is probably the most respected Indian member on the forum and one of the experts on this topic, there was another Indian but I think he is on leave his id was @Bang Galore his posts were always insightful as well.

Point being don't just throw baseless accusations like brainwashed out there.

 

[INDIC]

These people are not programmed to be critical thinkers. He read the AIT (pretty much the de facto version all over the world) that is taught as a fact almost everywhere (including India) and can't really understand how shallow the basis of the theory is.

Then there is the personal inadequacy and pettiness and political motives that make the zombies derive inferences from inferences from inferences...

I am surprised why Aryans only invaded India and why there is no Aryan invasion theory for other countries.

So, if so called Aryan enslaved Dravidians and displaced them to South, so how low caste Hindus of South India were found to be having high ancestry from the so called Aryan proved by genetic studies.

BTW The Rigvedic period originated from Cemetery H culture, part of last phase of Indus Valley civilization. The second Veda was composed as Indo-Gangetic tradition. In last phase of Indus valley civilization, IVC was divided into three phases known as Cemetery H phase(between Indus and Yamuna-Ganges), Rangpur phase(Gujarat) and Jhukar phase(Sindh) all disconnected. Cemetery H culture together with Gandhara Grave gave rise to Vedic culture which continued to expand in Gangetic plains due to more fertile plains.

Cemetery H Culture Dish or lid
What happened after 1800 BCE? | Harappa

 

[Joe Shearer]

Dravida which itself has a Sanskrit origin was a kingdom in North Tamil Nadu, but the same term 'Dravida' was extended to Kanchi, Chola, Chera and Pandya as a geographical term.

You probably also know, in that case, that Dravid came into Sanskrit as part of a set of terms in Tamil itself, consisting of Tamil, Dramil and Dravid. Those words have been encountered in Tamil literature in different forms, and no one form is superior to the others.

The point I was trying to warn you about is that Dravid and Draavid are different words. One refers to the people, the other to the geography.

 

[INDIC]

You probably also know, in that case, that Dravid came into Sanskrit as part of a set of terms in Tamil itself, consisting of Tamil, Dramil and Dravid. Those words have been encountered in Tamil literature in different forms, and no one form is superior to the others.

The point I was trying to warn you about is that Dravid and Draavid are different words. One refers to the people, the other to the geography.

I got it, you mean land of Dravida people was called Drāvida similar to other terminology with land and people all across ancient India.

 

[Vinod2070]

I am surprised why Aryans only invaded India and why there is no Aryan invasion theory for other countries.

That is exactly the question I also asked to the unfaithfulguy and others with no clue but keeps on blabbering...

Unfortunately it has become a political issue with strong vested interests from different quarters. The strong Indian response to this atrocity is just beginning to emerge compared to the centuries of vested interests parading the theory that has become mainstream all over.