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Ancient History not Appreciated by Pakistanis?

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Dholavira, Gujarat: One of the biggest IVC Cities:

NEW DELHI, June 24: If the discovery of Mohenjodaro and Harappa in the 1920s changed the dateline of Indian history with fresh evidence of an older civilisation, the Dholavira excavations of the 1990s have further enlightened archaeologists with revelations of an extensive Harappan city in the Rann of Kutch in Gujarat.

A team of the Archaeological Survey of India (ASI), led by Dr R S Bisht, Director (Excavations and Museums of ASI), conducted five field seasons of excavations at this semi-arid site.

Bisht, who had earlier carried out excavations in the multi-cultural site of Sanghol (Ludhiana district), Banawali - a premature and post-Harappan site, Chechar and Nalanda (Bihar) and Semthan in Kashmir, gave an exposition of his latest findings in Dholavira at a lecture organised by the Indira Gandhi National Centre for Arts on June 19.

Among Bhisht's findings, the most conspicuous was the aesthetic architecture of the city, a unique water harnessing system and the storm-water drainage system. A 7 meter deep rock-cut reservoir with a confirmed length of 79 meter was among the most significant finds of Bhisht.

Awesome, for it had been vertically cut through the rock. Another, equally deep reservoir of fine stone masonry was also found.

The reservoirs skirted the cities while the citadel and baths were centrally located on raised ground.

A large well, perhaps the largest hitherto found in the Harappan context equipped with a stone-cut trough to connect the drain meant for conducting water to a storage tank was also found. Circular structures conjoining like the figure eight believed to be used for bathing were unearthed at the site.

Most notable is a bathing tank with steps descending inwards. However, amongst the most curious finds is a huge brick masonry tumulus, or a circular grave built in with 10 radial walls of mud bricks almost assuming the shape of a `spoked wheel' perhaps personifying, as Bisht says, ``life, rebirth or the kalchakra'' at this ancient sepulchral site.

Interestingly, all these funerary structures except one were devoid of skeletons. Bhisht explains this as perhaps being a ``symbolic gesture'' of recalling the dead.

The grave sites typically have an assortment of supple pots and curvaceous jars.

A soft sandstone sculpture of a male with phallus erectus with its head and feet below the ankle truncated was found in the passage way of the eastern gate.

The Dholavira site also uncovered terracotta pieces, bangles, rings beads and exotic seals with intaglio engravings.

However, an account of the Dholavira excavations will not be complete without mentioning the unique inscription consisting of 10 large-sized signs which were discovered.

It is reminiscent of their picture like script called `pictographs' which unfortunately have not been deciphered. Bhisht quaintly calls it ``the oldest signboards of the world''.

Dholavira excavations throw light on Harappan civilisation

CGI Reconstruction of Dholavira:










Computer graphics reconstruction of Dholavira

Useful link:
GujaratPlus.com - The Old World - Dholavira

Article in Time Magazine:
India's Salt Lake Cities
 
Lothal, Gujarat: One of the most important IVC cities:



Useful Link:
Ancient Indus Lothal, Gujarat, India

Lothal (Gujarātī: લોથલ, IPA: [ˈloːtʰəl], English: Mound of the dead) was one of the most prominent cities of the ancient Indus valley civilization. Located in the modern state of Gujarāt and dating from 2400 BCE, it is one of India's most important archaeological site that dates from that era. Discovered in 1954, Lothal was excavated from February 13, 1955 to May 19, 1960 by the Archaeological Survey of India (ASI).

Lothal's dock—the world's earliest—connected the city to an ancient course of the Sabarmati river on the trade route between Harappan cities in Sindh and the peninsula of Saurashtra when the surrounding Kutch desert of today was a part of the Arabian Sea. It was a vital and thriving trade centre in ancient times, with its trade of beads, gems and valuable ornaments reaching the far corners of West Asia and Africa. Lothal's people were responsible for the earliest-known portrayals of realism in art and sculpture, telling some of the most well-known fables of today. Its scientists used a shell compass and divided the horizon and sky into 8–12 whole parts, possibly pioneering the study of stars and advanced navigation—2000 years before the Greeks. The techniques and tools they pioneered for bead-making and in metallurgy have stood the test of time for over 4000 years.

Lothal is situated near the village of Saragwala in the Dholka taluka of Ahmedabad district. It is at a distance of six kilometres (south-east) from the Lothal-Bhurkhi railway station on the Ahmedabad-Bhavnagar railway line. It is also connected by all-weather roads to the cities of Ahmedabad (85 km/53 mi), Bhavnagar, Rajkot and Dholka. Nearest cities are Dholka and Bagodara. Resuming excavation in 1961, archaeologists unearthed trenches sunk on the northern, eastern and western flanks of the mound, bringing to light the inlet channels and nullah ("ravine", or "gully") connecting the dock with the river. The findings consist of a mound, a township, a marketplace and the dock. Adjacent to the excavated areas stands the Archaeological Museum, where some of the most prominent collections of Indus-era antiquities in modern India are displayed.
 
Sorry to break it to you guys, but atleast 3 cities around the size and sophistication of Harappa and Mohenjodaro are located well within the boundaries of modern India.

They are Dholavira, Rakhigarhi and Lothal. Considering that apart from the 5-6 excavations, the vast majority of sites remain unexcavated, it is likely that more surprises are in store!!

Kindly read my last 3 posts and follow the links for further info.


Roadrunner and Unitedpak, the IVC was just as sophisticated on this side of the border as it was on the other side. So please stop claiming that "Indians are stealing Pakistani history".

Instead of squabbling over who the history belongs to, we should discuss the achievements of this great civilization and what lessons can be learnt from their success.

Here is a great link with a nice discussion:

Michel Danino - The Indus-Sarasvati Civilization and its Bearing on the Aryan Question
 
Sorry to break it to you guys, but atleast 3 cities around the size and sophistication of Harappa and Mohenjodaro are located well within the boundaries of modern India.

They are Dholavira, Rakhigarhi and Lothal. Considering that apart from the 5-6 excavations, the vast majority of sites remain unexcavated, it is likely that more surprises are in store!!

Kindly read my last 3 posts and follow the links for further info.


Roadrunner and Unitedpak, the IVC was just as sophisticated on this side of the border as it was on the other side. So please stop claiming that "Indians are stealing Pakistani history".

Instead of squabbling over who the history belongs to, we should discuss the achievements of this great civilization and what lessons can be learnt from their success.

Here is a great link with a nice discussion:

Michel Danino - The Indus-Sarasvati Civilization and its Bearing on the Aryan Question

You are joking right?

Please give me REAL photos of whats actually there of Dholavira, Rakhigarhi and Lothal.

You can flood this page with CGI computer reconstructions and Paintings all you want, but the truth is that there is nothing there which can be compared to the cities in Pakistan. Even the carbon dating tests were unclear.

Mojenjo Daro and Harappa are the only centers of IVC, I am open minded about cities in India, except there are none. Please go and compare the actual site with these CGI reconstructions, its just laughable.
 
You are joking right?

Please give me REAL photos of whats actually there of Dholavira, Rakhigarhi and Lothal.

CGI reconstructions are just polished versions of the actual plan and layout of the city, not someone's imagination.

They are done by archaeologists exactly according to the excavations.


You can flood this page with CGI computer reconstructions and Paintings all you want, but the truth is that there is nothing there which can be compared to the cities in Pakistan. Even the carbon dating tests were unclear.

If you read my posts carefully and follow the links, you will find that they cities excavated are just as advanced as the ones found in Pakistan.

Mojenjo Daro and Harappa are the only centers of IVC, I am open minded about cities in India, except there are none. Please go and compare the actual site with these CGI reconstructions, its just laughable.

Fine, I'll post photos. Happy?
 
Dholavira is a scam, and nobody in there right mind would even use that city as proof.
According to sources

The site was occupied from about 2900 BCE for about a millennium, declining slowly after about 2100 BCE, briefly abandoned and then reoccupied, finally by villagers among its ruins, until about 1450.
Indians were living there until 1450, you really think they left the construction untouched for all the time they lived there?
They literally only found a Brick wall which was the so called IVC site, and the rest was built less than 600 years ago.
 
Sophisticated water reservoir at Dhaulavira:



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City Plan of Dholavira:

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A stormwater drain in the castle:

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A junction of two streets, Lower Town

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Dholavira is a scam, and nobody in there right mind would even use that city as proof.
According to sources


Indians were living there until 1450, you really think they left the construction untouched for all the time they lived there?
They literally only found a Brick wall which was the so called IVC site, and the rest was built less than 600 years ago.

Kindly name your source for the 600 year ago claim and the "only one brick wall" claim.
The photos seem to speak otherwise.

Also name your source for the claim that Dhaulavira is a scam.

Else, please refrain from irresponsible statements.
 
I copied and pasted that quote from Wikipedia. Dholavira is a known scam, the so called age of the city has not been confirmed by non Indian sources.

Even Indian sources dont deny that the city was occupied until 1450
link: Dholavira Ruins,Kutch,Tour to Dholavira Ruins in Kutch,Gujarat,Tourist Attractions in Kutch

The city is not IVC, and even if its was, current Dholvira has been occupied by people until as recently as 1450, so its construction cannot be called IVC, unless you can prove the people who lived there until as recently as 1450 didnt do any construction to it for as long as they lived there.
 
I copied and pasted that quote from Wikipedia. Dholavira is a known scam, the so called age of the city has not been confirmed by non Indian sources.

So now the Archaeological Survey of India is a scam? Dear god, do you guys see hindutva propaganda in something as purely academic as archaeology?

The site has been studied by eminent archaeologists around the world, and is currently in consideration for world heritage status.


Even Indian sources dont deny that the city was occupied until 1450
link: Dholavira Ruins,Kutch,Tour to Dholavira Ruins in Kutch,Gujarat,Tourist Attractions in Kutch

The city is not IVC, and even if its was, current Dholvira has been occupied by people until as recently as 1450, so its construction cannot be called IVC, unless you can prove the people who lived there until as recently as 1450 didnt do any construction to it for as long as they lived there.

What? Do you know the first thing about archaeology?

Read some elementary stuff about archaeology before making such irresponsible comments.

The ruins of harrappa wouldn't be accessible to locals since they would be buried, in mounds, or a few layers below present settlements

There are very standard methods to verify the age of an archaeological site, such as the depth of the ruins, the artefacts such as seals and pottery found, and carbon dating.

It is very easy to separate the newer portions of a settlement from the old ones.

Kindly leave archaeology to archaeologists and refrain from contesting established finds.
 
Dholavira is a relatively recent discovery. This Indus city has been excavated by the Archaeological Survey of India since 1989.

Habitation at the site began well before 3000 B.C. and continued for more than a millennium.

This long history provides important information about the formative stage of the Indus Civilization and its subsequent decline.

The city's unique stone architecture is partly responsible for the remarkable preservation of its "Citadel", "Middle Town" and "Lower Town," all surrounded by gigantic water reservoirs that were cut into the bedrock.

Application is currently being made to UNESCO to register and protect Dholavira as a World Heritage site.



Source:
Dholavira (Gujarat, India)
 
Photos of Lothal, the world's first port:


10fe3580b41defea5cb3e447d1bb401b.jpg


Drainage system, Lothal:

c89ea21b7f2af26c8212420f9bd44968.jpg





 
Kindly name your source for the 600 year ago claim and the "only one brick wall" claim.
The photos seem to speak otherwise.

Also name your source for the claim that Dhaulavira is a scam.

Else, please refrain from irresponsible statements.

He's actually correct. I believe it too, that some (not all) of the sites in India are a scam. They've suddenly started appearing out of nowhere. Take a lot at some Indian/Bharati slums and so on. They don't look too far off the pictures you posted of Dhaulivira and so on.



Knock a few of those bricks down, and chip a few more, and voila. You have Dhilovira.

The odd thing about these Indian sites is

1) they've miraculously started discovering them, and

2) there is no official verfication of them. For them to achieve the status of virtually all Pakistani sites, they need to be investigated and confirmed by neutral foreign investigators. ALL the Pakistani sites were discovered or researched on by Finns, English, Indians, and others, but not by Pakistanis. Virtually all the Indian ones (even Lothal) never had a foreign researcher of significance confirm they were genuine and not just a few brick walls the Indians had chipped a bit.

So now the Archaeological Survey of India is a scam?

The Archaeological Survey is run by India. You might think dear Bharat is incapable of lying to improve its image and steal histories (as it is trying to flood Kashmir with Hindus currently), but if you want it to be recognized by the world, you need confirmation from emininent researchers from outside the subcontinent. The top neutral researchers in the field are in the West. Pakistan regularly allows these people to look at their sites, and monitor them for whatever samples they need to determine the age and so on.
 
Article on Archaeology.org:

A nine-year Archaeological Survey of India (ASI) excavation at the site of Dholavira in the western Indian state of Gujarat has yielded a walled Indus Valley city that dates to the middle of the third millennium B.C. and spans 123.5 acres. A team lead by the ASI's R.S. Bisht has uncovered a sophisticated water management system, giant reservoirs (the largest measuring 263 feet by 39 feet and 24 feet in depth) that together held more than 325,000 cubic yards of water. To conserve rainwater that would have been lost to streams, the Dholavirans built dams and collected the water in reservoirs. These reservoirs were connected to wells that filled cisterns for drinking and bathing. Discovery of the ancient cisterns is ironic in view of the fact that Gujarat was recently stricken by drought. "If Harappans [Indus Valley people], using simple hydraulic engineering skills, could control water resources, then why can't we today?" asks Bisht.

In addition to the reservoirs, excavations in a cemetery west of the city have uncovered tombs, idols, and ritual objects belonging to ethnic groups that practiced a variety of religious rituals. The cemetery's ethnic diversity indicates a thriving trading community that likely attracted merchants from as far as Mesopotamia, Persia, and southern Arabia.

The city was a colorful place, according to Bisht. Most walls, roads, floors, and possibly even building roofs were likely constructed of a pink-and-white clay. The Dholavirans also appear to have loved amusement: "A public place measuring 928 by 157 feet was found in the heart of the city," says Bisht. "With seating for spectators in its tiered structure, it could have been a stadium, a coronation ground, a marketplace, or even an amphitheater."

Source:
Aqua Dholavira
 
He's actually correct. I believe it too, that some (not all) of the sites in India are a scam. They've suddenly started appearing out of nowhere. Take a lot at some Indian/Bharati slums and so on. They don't look too far off the pictures you posted of Dhaulivira and so on.

Man, where do you come from. I mean seriously. Your posts are ridiculous.

You think that Dhaulavira are slums passed off as IVC sites?:crazy:

How stupid do u think the world is buddy


Knock a few of those bricks down, and chip a few more, and voila. You have Dhilovira.

The odd thing about these Indian sites is

1) they've miraculously started discovering them, and

2) there is no official verfication of them. For them to achieve the status of virtually all Pakistani sites, they need to be investigated and confirmed by neutral foreign investigators. ALL the Pakistani sites were discovered or researched on by Finns, English, Indians, and others, but not by Pakistanis. Virtually all the Indian ones (even Lothal) never had a foreign researcher of significance confirm they were genuine and not just a few brick walls the Indians had chipped a bit.

This isn't a police investigation. Its an archeological dig. Kindly understand the difference and stop reading consipracy into everything.

Noone knew harappa and Mohenjodaro existed until someone discovered it by accident. Ditto here.

There are thousands of unexcavated sites scattered around India which are slowly being explored.

The rest of you post is...well....:hitwall:
 
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