Ancient History not Appreciated by Pakistanis?

[roadrunner]

Mate.. you are asking what factual credibility does "kalavijal" have..
Then let me ask you what credibility does all the religious texts have which is followed by the world today. So does that mean that all are fools...?

Religious texts are a source of reference, but they aren't necessarily factual. You have flying apes in the Mahabharata, would you say these are accurate? Some texts are more accurate than others, the Vedas seem written by reasonably sane people. Some are more mythological than others. However, you cannot just say that a Holy book is fact. A fact needs some evidence behind it. If that evidence is a Holy book alone, then it's not enough to be a fact..just a belief

 

[roadrunner]

Unlike the so called "Indus valley" sites in west India, which is usually a brick wall and nothing more. As for South India, nothing there what so ever.

This is also true. I think that some of these sites in Northwestern India are nothing more than invented and were never part of the IVC. There is a desperation on the part of Indians (Bharatis) to be a part of the IVC, so much that they make up things.

HORSEPLAY IN HARAPPA

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

RR and United pak,

Perhaps, if you and others ever have time, you could contribute with articles, links to publications, references and your own posts/comments, that detail and defend this rich history of ours.

It could be an excellent source of reference and information for members and visitors to the site. Perhaps we can get some history institutions/academics from Pakistan involved- unless of course such a source of information already exists.

Defending our history is just as important as defending our borders.

The bigger battle will be introducing pre-islamic history into our schools. the new curriculum being proposed is supposed to be more balanced, but I am not sure how much emphasis pre-Islamic history is going got have.

A study by Nayyar & Salim concluded in 2003 that there is an increasing trend where children are taught Pakistan Studies as a replacement for the teaching of history and geography as full fledged disciplines. Previously, children were taught the very early pre-Islamic history of South Asia and its contribution to rich cultural diversity of modern-day Pakistan.This long historical perspective of Pakistan is absent these Pakistan Studies textbooks. Instead, children are now taught that the history of Pakistan starts from the day the first Muslim set foot in India. The study reported that the textbooks also had a lot of gender-biased stereotypes and other perspectives that "encourage prejudice, bigotry and discrimination towards fellow Pakistanis and other nations, especially against religious minorities, as well as the omission of concepts ... that could encourage critical self awareness among students”.

http://www.sdpi.org/whats_new/reporton/State%20of Curr&TextBooks.pdf

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

Seems like pre-Islam history will continue to get short rift in our textbooks, though there will be some welcome changes in other aspects:

School curriculum ‘enlightened’; Two-Nation Theory explained:

‘Muslim deprivation, not religion, led to Partition’

* New Pak Studies syllabus ‘eliminates prejudice against non-Muslims’
* Includes concept of ‘enlightened moderation’, economic and privatisation policies, October 1999 coup

By Irfan Ghauri

ISLAMABAD: The government has made drastic changes in the new Pakistan Studies curriculum, including new chapters on the Musharraf government’s economic and privatisation policies and “enlightened moderation”, and less biased explanations of the Two-Nation Theory and Partition.

The new National Curriculum for Pakistan Studies for grades IX and X explains the Two-Nation Theory and Pakistan’s ideology “with specific reference to the economic and social deprivation of Muslims in India,” an official involved with the formulation of the curriculum told Daily Times.

“An effort has been made to exclude all such material that promotes prejudice against the non-Muslims of pre-partition India,” he said. “Pakistan’s ideology has been explained with reference to the pronouncements of Allama Iqbal and Quaid-e-Azam,” he added.

The final draft of the new curriculum has been finalised and it is being sent to the provinces, which will print text books in accordance with this curriculum, sources in the Education Ministry told Daily Times on Wednesday. The final draft includes amendments made by the provinces to an earlier draft prepared by the national curricula committee, the sources said.

The new curriculum will be implemented from the next academic year (2007).

The new textbooks will cover the topics of the ideological basis of Pakistan, creation of Pakistan, land and environment, brief history of Pakistan, Pakistan in world affairs, economic development, population, society and culture.

Pakistan’s pre-Partition history includes discussion of the Pakistan movement (1940-47), Pakistan Resolution (1940), Cripps Mission (1942), Jinnah-Ghandi Talks (1944), Simla Conference (1945), General Elections (1945-46), Muslim League Legislators’ Convention (1946), Cabinet Mission Plan (1946), Interim Government (1946-47), 3rd June Plan (1947), Partition and the creation of Pakistan (1947).

The post-Partition history of Pakistan is covered in two sections. The first includes consolidation of the state and search for a constitution (1947-58), early problems, Objectives Resolution, accession of the states and tribal areas, 1956 constitution, the Ayub Khan era (1958-1969), Yahya Khan regime (1969-71), legal framework order and the elections of 1970, events in the aftermath of the elections, and the secession of East Pakistan.

The next section starts with the ZA Bhutto era (1971-77), including his economic reforms, policy of nationalisation and the 1973 constitution. It also cover the Zia era (1977-88), Islamisation, Afghan jihad and its implications, the Junejo period, the restoration of civil rule (1988-99), Benazir and Nawaz Sharif’s first and second governments, the functioning of their governments, and Pakistan’s becoming a nuclear power.

The causes of the military takeover of October 12, 1999, the devolution of power process introduced by Gen Musharraf’s government and the 2002 elections will also be covered in this section.

Special space has been given to Musharraf’s policies of enlightened moderation, privatisation and industrialisation. Also included are the economic reforms of the present government masterminded by Shaukat Aziz, first as finance minister and then prime minister.

The section on Pakistan in world affairs includes the country’s foreign policy, its relations with neighbouring countries, the USA, China, the UK, the EU, Russia and Japan, and its role in the Organisation of Islamic Countries and South Asia Association for Regional Cooperation.

The last section covers population and environment issues, education and literacy, the gender and rural-urban composition of the population, and major problems faced by society including education and healthcare. It also includes discussion of major features of Pakistan’s culture and community, regional cultures, and the origin and evolution of national and regional languages.

The minorities of Pakistan are also discussed with specific reference to Quaid-e-Azam’s speech of August 11, 1947, defining their status.

Daily Times - Leading News Resource of Pakistan

 

[roadrunner]

RR and United pak,

Perhaps, if you and others ever have time, you could contribute with articles, links to publications, references and your own posts/comments, that detail and defend this rich history of ours.

It could be an excellent source of reference and information for members and visitors to the site. Perhaps we can get some history institutions/academics from Pakistan involved- unless of course such a source of information already exists.

Defending our history is just as important as defending our borders.

Very true!

The bigger battle will be introducing pre-islamic history into our schools. the new curriculum being proposed is supposed to be more balanced, but I am not sure how much emphasis pre-Islamic history is going got have.

That is a problem. Religion and politics dont mix, religion and history dont mix either. Just teach history as it occurred. Forget the brainwashers (Mullahs) who want only parts of history taught. A more tolerant society would come about by learning about Islamic and unislamic pasts.

 

[EagleEyes]

I must say, RR and UnitedPak, i am impressed with your knowledge.

Studying here in the United States made me total ignorant of the history of Pakistan.

Did you guys take courses in school and colleges related to Pakistan history? Any book you guys want to recommend?

Its good to have you guys here.

Thanks!

 

[bhangra12345]

Pictures from Indus Valley Civilization

Indus Valley Civilization


Fig. 1. Excavation of the ruins at Mohenjo-daro, featuring the "Great Bath," a large
structure whose central sunken area would have been filled with water.
This would have been a massive project to build and maintain.
What purpose would it have served?




Figs. 2 and 3 (above). Bust found at Mohenjo-daro. The artistry is undeniable,

but who might it be? What sort of person would warrant such artistic efforts on his behalf?
A king? Priest? God? Hero?




Figs. 4 and 5. Seals featuring what appear to be horned, crossed-legged figures (seals were small carvings used to make impressions in clay surfaces, not unlike the impressions left in wax by a signet ring), Note the inscriptions above each figure; scholars have yet to decipher their meaning. Marks on the arms may represent bangles like those on the Mohenjo-daro figure below (Fig. 10). Figure 4, a horned, ithyphallic figure surrounded by animals, is perhaps the single most famous Indus Valley image, known as the "Pashupati Seal." Speculation abounds, but the significance or identity of the figures remains elusive.

 

[Spring Onion]

p.s, Ghandara was a Pashtun civilisation spread from Afghanistan to most of North Pakistan, pretty much how Pashtuns are spread out today.

Yes you can see the statues of Budha in Afghanistan and coming to NWFP you will find most rare reminents of Gandhara Civilization in SWAT valley.
There are so many of these Budha statues and stoopas and places of warship of Budhisim.

And same in Taxila which im sure everyone knows very well

BTW i noticed this therad just today

 

[UnitedPak]

I must say, RR and UnitedPak, i am impressed with your knowledge.

Studying here in the United States made me total ignorant of the history of Pakistan.

Did you guys take courses in school and colleges related to Pakistan history? Any book you guys want to recommend?

Its good to have you guys here.

Thanks!

Hey, thanks for the reply

I never took any courses on Pakistans history but just became interested. I started searching on the internet and realised that Pakistans ancient history was completely credited to India, despite the fact that it didnt belong to Indians.

At first I simply tried to correct the mistakes on wikipedia. But this was met with angry replies by Indians on wikipedia. They literally abused their admin powers to ban me and a few other Pakistani friends from Wiki. There was a big trial called Pak vs India on wikipedia, and despite the mounting evidence against the Indians where they insulted Islam in response to our arguments, vandalised articles, made hate comments towards Pakistanis in every article and generally avoided taking any Pakistani argument seriously, only the Pakistani members were banned, and every Indian member was left unpunished (coincidence apparently).

The Indian cabal on wiki had pretty much hijacked the articles, and refused to let anyone edit. Their arguments were very weak, and they only defended themselves by accusing Pakistanis of being pro taliban and anti Semitic, thus totally avoiding the original argument.

They literally wanted to pass on the Idea that Pakistanis changed their ancestors when they converted to Islam, so didnt have any right to their own history. And for some weird reason, when Pakistanis converted to Islam, it made Pakistani ancestors related to neighbouring Indians instead.

Its not only the history articles they have hijacked. Every Pakistan v India and even India v China war articles are extremely biased. Anyone questioning this is banned for "not having a neutral point of view".

When wikipedia didnt turn out well, I went on with several Pakistani friends and joined PakHub, a site dedicated to reclaiming Pakistans history.
To be honest, things have improved a great deal from when I started. Pakistan is at least being mentioned whenever Indus valley is in question. This is a huge step from a few years ago.
The articles are still very biased though. Empires based in Pakistan, and with known names for their land are being referred to as "Indian"; and they avoid giving out maps altogether.

Throughout this entire time I became more and more familiar with Pakistans history and also I had a lot of conversations with very well-informed people. But its a shame that we dont have as many proud Pakistanis to help out in this fight.

I plan to keep going on, their nationalistic lies cant go up against basic logic.

 

[roadrunner]

I must say, RR and UnitedPak, i am impressed with your knowledge.

Studying here in the United States made me total ignorant of the history of Pakistan.

Did you guys take courses in school and colleges related to Pakistan history? Any book you guys want to recommend?

Its good to have you guys here.

Thanks!

No history courses here. I guess I read about it for the same reasons as the others mentioned in this thread. I find it annoying that India is allowed to steal a great history that is not even theirs in the first place. Teaching pre-Islamic history is of utmost importance. It's part of Pakistan history, so why let the Indians have a good image for which they contributed virtually nothing to anyway? I'm disappointed that Pakistani media is not up in arms about this stealing of history. It's their job create this image. All they do is talk about how much of a darling the CJ is, and how much Mush has been "unconstitutional" for making Pakistan into an asian tiger.

 

[roadrunner]

Their arguments were very weak, and they only defended themselves by accusing Pakistanis of being pro taliban and anti Semitic, thus totally avoiding the original argument.

Are you saying Indians (Bharatis) consider themselves to be Semites?

 

[UnitedPak]

Are you saying Indians (Bharatis) consider themselves to be Semites?

lol, no, the anti-Semite card seems to be thee card to play when someone needs to discredit Muslims now a days.

It was just an accusation thrown at us to get us banned. It started with me saying that they were exaggerating the number of Hindus killed in Pakistan during the partition (their number ended with 6 zeros ), and somehow it offended them when I asked for sources besides hindutva.

 

[Dravidan]

There are four main cradles of civilization from which elements of culture have spread to other parts of the world. These are, moving from east to west, China, the Indian subcontinent, the 'Fertile Crescent', and the Mediterranean, espicaly Greece and Italy. Of these four areas India deserves a large share of the credit.
She has deeply afected the religious life of most of asia and has provided very important elements in the culture of the whole of South East asia, as well as extending her influence, directly and indirectly to other parts of the world.
The old strata of India's cultural life go back far beyond anything than in the west. The whole of the Rig Veda has been composed long before the "ILIAD", and there is hardly anything in the "OLD TESTAMENT" in its present form which is as old even as the latest Rig Vedic hymns.

Some practices and beliefs of popular Hinduism, for instance the cults of the sacred bull and the pipal tree, are even older. Infact every generations in India, for over 5000 yrs, has bequeathed something, if only a very little, to posterity.

No land on earth has such a long cultural continuity as India, since there is a visibile evidence for that till now, though there were more ancient civilizations, notably in Egypt and Iraq, there were virtually forgotten by the inhabitants of those lands, and were overlaid by new intrusive cultures until nobody remembered the "BOOK OF THE DEAD" or the "EPIC OF GILGAMESH", and great kings such as Ramesses II or Hammurabi were not recorded in any living tradition.

Only 19th century scholarship resurrected them from oblivion, and if they are now national heroes, remembered by every school-child in their respective lands,this is not thanks either to the historical genius or to the retentive folk-memory of the countries concerned.

On the other hand in India the 'brahman' still repeats in his daily worship vedic hymns composed over 3000 yrs ago, and tradition recalls heroic chieftains and the great battles fought by them at about the same time. In respect of the lenght of continuous tradition China comes second to India and Greec makes a poor third.

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

^^^ Beg to disagree with the terminology used. There was no nation called "India" to spread any of this you claim. The IVC would have primarily existed in the the geographical area now known as Pakistan, and most probably Pakistanis are the descendants of its people, so "South Asia" would be a more appropriate term., or "the ancient inhabitants of South Asia".

 

[roadrunner]

There are four main cradles of civilization from which elements of culture have spread to other parts of the world. These are, moving from east to west, China, the Indian subcontinent, the 'Fertile Crescent', and the Mediterranean, espicaly Greece and Italy. Of these four areas India deserves a large share of the credit.

And this really is the point. HISTORICAL India (whose borders are equal to modern day Pakistan basically) was one of the 4 cradles of civilization. But MODERN India (aka Bharat) was never a cradle of civilization. In other words it was ancient Pakistan that was the cradle of civilization to put it more clearly.

The old strata of India's cultural life go back far beyond anything than in the west. The whole of the Rig Veda has been composed long before the "ILIAD", and there is hardly anything in the "OLD TESTAMENT" in its present form which is as old even as the latest Rig Vedic hymns.

The Rig Veda was composed in ancient Pakistan, when Pakistan was known as Saptha Sindhu, (_ind_) or India (the name "India" is a derivation of "Indus". Which part of modern Bharat/India does the Indus flow through?).

Some practices and beliefs of popular Hinduism, for instance the cults of the sacred bull and the pipal tree, are even older. Infact every generations in India, for over 5000 yrs, has bequeathed something, if only a very little, to posterity.

Hinduism is a relatively new religion. I would say it's present form is not more than 1000 years old. Islam is more ancient than Hinduism when you consider Hinduism's timeline.

No land on earth has such a long cultural continuity as India, since there is a visibile evidence for that till now, though there were more ancient civilizations

Sorry, but this is just BS. Vedism pushed into Northern Bharat, and then the indigenous people metamorphized it into Hinduism over the course of centuries. There has been a complete change of culture/religion in fact. You call it Dharmic worship, where you select the bits you find appealing to "let the Dharma flow".

On the other hand in India the 'brahman' still repeats in his daily worship vedic hymns composed over 3000 yrs ago, and tradition recalls heroic chieftains and the great battles fought by them at about the same time. In respect of the lenght of continuous tradition China comes second to India and Greec makes a poor third.

The Vedic hymns that are repeated as you say are not followed in Hinduism. Hinduism is a complete U-turn on Vedism. Look up what Vedic society was like and look up what Hindu society is and always was like. Animal sacrifices, eating of beef were all common to Vedism, in Hinduism these have been forbidden. This is just the tip of th iceberg. Look at Hinduism's evolution, you will find that as Hinduism evolved, the Dravidian Gods became more and more prominent.