Ancient History not Appreciated by Pakistanis?

[roadrunner]

Sorry to break it to you guys, but atleast 3 cities around the size and sophistication of Harappa and Mohenjodaro are located well within the boundaries of modern India.

They are Dholavira, Rakhigarhi and Lothal. Considering that apart from the 5-6 excavations, the vast majority of sites remain unexcavated, it is likely that more surprises are in store!!

Kindly read my last 3 posts and follow the links for further info.

Nonsense.

I've outlined the borders of Pakistan on the map below. 3 major cities are found in Pakistan. One major city is in India at the border. The majority of cities are well inside Pakistan. Lothal is a port, not a city.

http://img139.imageshack.us/my.php?image=indusmap1mn0.jpg

Roadrunner and Unitedpak, the IVC was just as sophisticated on this side of the border as it was on the other side. So please stop claiming that "Indians are stealing Pakistani history".

Dude, this is nonsense. Even if you include every single major site that India is currently miraculously discovering, Pakistan has way more cities and settlements (see map above). Why do you think it was called the "Indus Valley civilization"? Because the settlements were mainly located along the Indus River. Have the Indians suddenly discovered that the site was located mainly along the Ganges or something, and so should be renamed "The Gangetic Valley civilization" or something? Not many neutral international researchers will agree with you, though the Archaeological Survey of India might.

Instead of squabbling over who the history belongs to, we should discuss the achievements of this great civilization and what lessons can be learnt from their success.

We can do both? Why should we ignore one facet of history at the expense of another? Because it suits you?

Here is a great link with a nice discussion:

Michel Danino - The Indus-Sarasvati Civilization and its Bearing on the Aryan Question

Might check it later.

 

[Flintlock]

I've outlined the borders of Pakistan on the map below. 3 major cities are found in Pakistan. One major city is in India at the border. The majority of cities are well inside Pakistan. Lothal is a port, not a city.

According to what? Some map without any credible source?

Here's Dholavira on the UNESCO page:
Dholavira: a Harappan City, Gujarat, Disstt, Kachchh - UNESCO World Heritage Centre

Dude, this is nonsense. Even if you include every single major site that India is currently miraculously discovering, Pakistan has way more cities and settlements (see map above). Why do you think it was called the "Indus Valley civilization"? Because the settlements were mainly located along the Indus River. Have the Indians suddenly discovered that the site was located mainly along the Ganges or something, and so should be renamed "The Gangetic Valley civilization" or something? Not many neutral international researchers will agree with you, though the Archaeological Survey of India might.

The civilization extends from Western pakistan all the way to Central India. Just because its called IVC doesn't make it solely exist on the banks of one river.

Naturally ,Indus being a major river, a lot of important sites are found there.

All I'm saying is that no one country has ownership over the civilization, since equally large cities like Dhaulavira and Rakhigarhi, and an important trade and port centre Lothal is present within India.

Numerous other sites are also present within India and haven't been excavated yet.

We can do both? Why should we ignore one facet of history at the expense of another? Because it suits you?

Because its your paranoid mind that is telling you that your history is being stolen.
Noone is stealing anyone's history.
We aren't even sure about the origins of the Harappans, let alone decide which modern country it belongs to.

 

[roadrunner]

Man, where do you come from. I mean seriously. Your posts are ridiculous.

You think that Dhaulavira are slums passed off as IVC sites?

How stupid do u think the world is buddy

Dude, I've no doubts some Indian sites are old slums that some Indians have chipped away to make look archaeological. Not all of them, but undoubtedly some. I've already posted on some of the maniplations Indians have tried to do regarding Indus Valley artifacts and scripts. The big question you need to answer is..Why do you think all these sites are all of a sudden appearing in India and expanding? Research has been ongoing by the British for decades, the Finns, not one of these excavations found an Indian site. The major cities in Pakistan were discovered by foreign researchers. It's not conclusive proof that these sites are made up, but taken together I would have my doubts until they've been verified.

I totally agree with your last statement "how stupid do you think the world is?" That is why the world requires proof, more so than just "the archaeological survey of India". Some neutral researchers.

This isn't a police investigation. Its an archeological dig. Kindly understand the difference and stop reading consipracy into everything.

Noone knew harappa and Mohenjodaro existed until someone discovered it by accident. Ditto here.

The British discovered Mohenjendaro, and Harrappa. They were neutral researcher, not Indian or Pakistani.

There are thousands of unexcavated sites scattered around India which are slowly being explored.

And this is where it turns into nonsense. The IVC was an agro-economy based on fertile lands and plentiful irrigation. The river systems were required for this. Being fairly advanced for their time, they would have had the common sense to locate their settlements and farms along the banks of the rivers since these were where the fertile lands lay. Forming major cities in India as you put it would have been stupid in this regard.

Even the Vedic period was based around the Rig Veda. Read it. It talks of one river for the most part..the Indus. The Saraswati is also mentioned a bit (it is located in Pakistan for quite a large part also), but the focus is the Indus. Why would these Vedic people describe the Indus and its tributaries perfectly do you think? Why would the IVC people migrate to India and build farms on more barren land?

 

[roadrunner]

Article on Archaeology.org:

A nine-year Archaeological Survey of India (ASI) excavation at the site of Dholavira in the western Indian state of Gujarat has yielded a walled Indus Valley city that dates to the middle of the third millennium B.C. and spans 123.5 acres. A team lead by the ASI's R.S. Bisht has uncovered a sophisticated water management system, giant reservoirs (the largest measuring 263 feet by 39 feet and 24 feet in depth) that together held more than 325,000 cubic yards of water. To conserve rainwater that would have been lost to streams, the Dholavirans built dams and collected the water in reservoirs. These reservoirs were connected to wells that filled cisterns for drinking and bathing. Discovery of the ancient cisterns is ironic in view of the fact that Gujarat was recently stricken by drought. "If Harappans [Indus Valley people], using simple hydraulic engineering skills, could control water resources, then why can't we today?" asks Bisht.

In addition to the reservoirs, excavations in a cemetery west of the city have uncovered tombs, idols, and ritual objects belonging to ethnic groups that practiced a variety of religious rituals. The cemetery's ethnic diversity indicates a thriving trading community that likely attracted merchants from as far as Mesopotamia, Persia, and southern Arabia.

The city was a colorful place, according to Bisht. Most walls, roads, floors, and possibly even building roofs were likely constructed of a pink-and-white clay. The Dholavirans also appear to have loved amusement: "A public place measuring 928 by 157 feet was found in the heart of the city," says Bisht. "With seating for spectators in its tiered structure, it could have been a stadium, a coronation ground, a marketplace, or even an amphitheater."

Source:
Aqua Dholavira

Archaeology.org is a non Indian website, but it is quoting the work of an Indian researcher, Rambhir Singh Bisht.

Art and times of Ranbir Singh Bisht

Is he a neutral reseacher? Show me non Indian researcher who have confirmed this.

 

[Flintlock]

Dude, I've no doubts some Indian sites are old slums that some Indians have chipped away to make look archaeological. Not all of them, but undoubtedly some. I've already posted on some of the maniplations Indians have tried to do regarding Indus Valley artifacts and scripts. The big question you need to answer is..Why do you think all these sites are all of a sudden appearing in India and expanding? Research has been ongoing by the British for decades, the Finns, not one of these excavations found an Indian site. The major cities in Pakistan were discovered by foreign researchers. It's not conclusive proof that these sites are made up, but taken together I would have my doubts until they've been verified.

Man, seriously, don't get into archaeology. You'll end up putting some weird twist on everything you see.

Sure, they are all slums disguised as archaeological sites. Isn't that easy to do?

The foreign researchers obviously search along the banks of the Indus, and don't expect very many sites away from the main river.

Most of these "new" sites were discovered long ago by your beloved french and british, but are being properly excavated now by the ASI.

I totally agree with your last statement "how stupid do you think the world is?" That is why the world requires proof, more so than just "the archaeological survey of India". Some neutral researchers.

The world has accepted these sites as harappan. The only people shouting "fake fake" are paranoid Pakistanis like yourself.

And this is where it turns into nonsense. The IVC was an agro-economy based on fertile lands and plentiful irrigation. The river systems were required for this. Being fairly advanced for their time, they would have had the common sense to locate their settlements and farms along the banks of the rivers since these were where the fertile lands lay. Forming major cities in India as you put it would have been stupid in this regard.

So there are no rivers in India?
The Indian cities too are found on the banks of rivers, or near the ocean, or with advanced water storing facilities like in the city in Rann of Kutch.

Even the Vedic period was based around the Rig Veda. Read it. It talks of one river for the most part..the Indus. The Saraswati is also mentioned a bit (it is located in Pakistan for quite a large part also), but the focus is the Indus. Why would these Vedic people describe the Indus and its tributaries perfectly do you think? Why would the IVC people migrate to India and build farms on more barren land?

What? What does vedic period have to do with Harappa. Don't go off topic.

the IVC people migrated to the banks of another river, not to the middle of a desert.

 

[Flintlock]

Archaeology.org is a non Indian website, but it is quoting the work of an Indian researcher, Rambhir Singh Bisht.

Art and times of Ranbir Singh Bisht

Is he a neutral reseacher? Show me non Indian researcher who have confirmed this.

Lol, just because he is Indian you doubt his credibility. Wow. Talk about prejudice and paranoia.

Archeology isn't propaganda. It requires careful study and expertise. The guy published peer reviewed papers before his research was accepted by the scientific community.

We aren't talking about Kashmir anymore. This is science, not politics.

Don't get your India-Pakistani -propaganda war into everything.

An Italian discovers Roman settlements, a British guy discoveres some early English settlement, and Indian guy discovers a Harrappan settlement.
Just because no Pakistani researcher did any notable excavations, and you had to rely on foreigners to do you work, doesn't mean that you start calling all Indian archaeological work as a sham.

 

[roadrunner]

According to what? Some map without any credible source?

Major Ancient Indus Valley Sites

Here's Dholavira on the UNESCO page:
Dholavira: a Harappan City, Gujarat, Disstt, Kachchh - UNESCO World Heritage Centre

BS. Read the page you quoted.

Date of Submission: 03/07/1998
Criteria:
Category: Cultural
Submission prepared by:
Archaeological Survey of India
Coordinates:
23°53'10" N, 70°11'03" E
Ref.: 1090

Read the bit in red. It might be on UNESCO, but it is just a submission to UNESCO by the "Archaeological Survey of India". Show me one neutral credible researcher that confirms all this. I can show you several neutral researchers that confirmed the Pakistani sites.

The civilization extends from Western pakistan all the way to Central India. Just because its called IVC doesn't make it solely exist on the banks of one river.

Dude, it's called the IVC for a reason. Because the settlements were mainly found along the fertile Indus River. They do not extend into Central India. In that case they also extend into Afghanistan, Uzbekistan and Iran. There is some cross over passed the border into Northwestern India, but the MAJORITY of the sites are located in Pakistan. And the majorly important sites are located along the Indus - hence the Indus Valley Civilization.

Naturally ,Indus being a major river, a lot of important sites are found there.

All I'm saying is that no one country has ownership over the civilization, since equally large cities like Dhaulavira and Rakhigarhi, and an important trade and port centre Lothal is present within India.

BULLSHYT. Rakhigarhi and Dhaulavira are in no way comparable to Harrapa and Mohenjendaro. You will only find Indians saying this. Why do you think international researchers, the IVC seals, scripts and so on are performed in Harrappa and Mohenjendaro?

Numerous other sites are also present within India and haven't been excavated yet.

I'm sure many more Dalit toilet systems-cum-Indus Valley sites will be being found very soon

Because its your paranoid mind that is telling you that your history is being stolen.
Noone is stealing anyone's history.
We aren't even sure about the origins of the Harappans, let alone decide which modern country it belongs to.

It's not paranoid at all. India (Bharat) has tried to steal Pakistan's history. From the Vedic period, to the Gandharans, to the IVC. Gandhara luckily you guys cannot even claim to be close to, neither can you claim to have anything to do with the Vedic Pakistan people or period. The IVC you can claim to have been a minor part of (the northwestern Punjabis and Gujeratis), though by now Gujeratis I've seen look pretty Tamil, but not all.

We are 100% sure of the origins of the Harrappans imo. They are the ancestors of modern day Pakistanis from that area. You do not get these population shifts like you say. They do not occur. Ask a population geneticist why. Migratory factors will not mean that a whole populations suddenly decides to uproot itself and go to beloved Bharat. It does not happen. Unless you want to advocate genocide, and like many websites have said, this is very unlikely (neutral scholarship here now).

 

[Flintlock]

Read the bit in red. It might be on UNESCO, but it is just a submission to UNESCO by the "Archaeological Survey of India". Show me one neutral credible researcher that confirms all this. I can show you several neutral researchers that confirmed the Pakistani sites.

Ya, and guess who it is submitted to for evaluation. UNESCO. How easy do u think it is to fool UNESCO into taking a slum as a harappan site?

Man, you are seriously funny

BULLSHYT. Rakhigarhi and Dhaulavira are in no way comparable to Harrapa and Mohenjendaro. You will only find Indians saying this. Why do you think international researchers, the IVC seals, scripts and so on are performed in Harrappa and Mohenjendaro?

In terms of size, sophistication, technology they definitely are. Check the details of the sites if you don't believe me.

Because the Indian ones are recent finds, thats why.
Obviously the Pakistani ones were found earlier, so they are more famous.

I'm sure many more Dalit toilet systems-cum-Indus Valley sites will be being found very soon

I'm glad you didn't choose to be an archaeologist. It would really be a shame...

It's not paranoid at all. India (Bharat) has tried to steal Pakistan's history. From the Vedic period, to the Gandharans, to the IVC. Gandhara luckily you guys cannot even claim to be close to, neither can you claim to have anything to do with the Vedic Pakistan people or period. The IVC you can claim to have been a minor part of (the northwestern Punjabis and Gujeratis), though by now Gujeratis I've seen look pretty Tamil, but not all.

LOL..I love how you reason!! Again, thank goodness you didn't go into archaeology!!

We are 100% sure of the origins of the Harrappans imo. They are the ancestors of modern day Pakistanis from that area. You do not get these population shifts like you say. They do not occur. Ask a population geneticist why. Migratory factors will not mean that a whole populations suddenly decides to uproot itself and go to beloved Bharat. It does not happen. Unless you want to advocate genocide, and like many websites have said, this is very unlikely (neutral scholarship here now).

Yeah rite. And you are the expert on migration and genetics. Kindly post links regarding the same.

Most western, and thus according to you, neutral researchers are not in consensus about their origin.

A large number agree that they are proto-dravidians. The rest have varying viewpoints.

 

[Flintlock]

For those who, by some slim chance, think that Indian archaeologists are "neutral" and aren't disguising slums as archaeological sites, here is a nice link:

Gola Dhoro, Bagasra: an ancient Indus Valley site in Gujarat, India, 2005

 

[Flintlock]

Here is a nice interview with the world famous Indian archaeologist Prof. S.R. Rao.
He is credited with discoveries at Lothal and Dwarka, as well as deciphering part of the Indus script:

The Hindu : Unearthing historical vestiges

 

[Flintlock]

News Article about Rakhigarhi:

‘Rakhigarhi is the largest Harappan site ever found’

Website of Indus Center:

Indus Center, India

 

[roadrunner]

Ya, and guess who it is submitted to for evaluation. UNESCO. How easy do u think it is to fool UNESCO into taking a slum as a harappan site?

Man, you are seriously funny

UNESCO sites must meet one of the following 10 criteria. I've lsited 3 possibilities. Don't you think it's rather loose?

Selection criteria:

• to represent a masterpiece of human creative genius;
  
  -unlikely (but possible, since creating an archaeological site out of a toilet system does require genius )
  
• to be directly or tangibly associated with events or living traditions, with ideas, or with beliefs, with artistic and literary works of outstanding universal significance. (The Committee considers that this criterion should preferably be used in conjunction with other criteria);
  
  - this doesn't even need evidence to be associated with IVC. Just tangible evidence (probably a reference from the "Archaeological Institute of India").
  
• to contain the most important and significant natural habitats for in-situ conservation of biological diversity, including those containing threatened species of outstanding universal value from the point of view of science or conservation.
  
  -perhaps this? I'm sure a lot of biological diversity must still be thriving from the relics of pre-site latrinal content.

 

[Flintlock]

UNESCO sites must meet one of the following 10 criteria. I've lsited 3 possibilities. Don't you think it's rather loose?

Selection criteria:

• to represent a masterpiece of human creative genius;
  
  -unlikely (but possible, since creating an archaeological site out of a toilet system does require genius )
  
• to be directly or tangibly associated with events or living traditions, with ideas, or with beliefs, with artistic and literary works of outstanding universal significance. (The Committee considers that this criterion should preferably be used in conjunction with other criteria);
  
  - this doesn't even need evidence to be associated with IVC. Just tangible evidence (probably a reference from the "Archaeological Institute of India").
  
• to contain the most important and significant natural habitats for in-situ conservation of biological diversity, including those containing threatened species of outstanding universal value from the point of view of science or conservation.
  
  -perhaps this? I'm sure a lot of biological diversity must still be thriving from the relics of pre-site latrinal content.

Very funny. Nice joke, but not worth considering as a serious argument. The people at UNESCO are not fools.

In any case, read my last 3 posts and visit the links. There is some good information for interested readers there.

 

[roadrunner]

Here is a nice interview with the world famous Indian archaeologist Prof. S.R. Rao.
He is credited with discoveries at Lothal and Dwarka, as well as deciphering part of the Indus script:

The Hindu : Unearthing historical vestiges

These are all Indians. Pakistani sites were discovered by people like Charles mason and Alexander burnes. Very few of the Pakistani sites were uncovered by Pakistanis (which isn't a good thing, but neutrality can be assured).

 

[Flintlock]

These are all Indians. Pakistani sites were discovered by people like Charles mason and Alexander burnes. Very few of the Pakistani sites were uncovered by Pakistanis (which isn't a good thing, but neutrality can be assured).

Thats exactly my point. You have imaginary misgivings against Indian archaeologists.

The rest of the world doesn't.

Dr. Rao and others are respected worldwide in their field and have received grants from well known organizations for their work.

They aren't the hindutva stooges that you imagine them to be!

Kindly leave your prejudices home while debating about science.