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Ancient History not Appreciated by Pakistanis?

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^^Above map shows the all major sites in India as well, including Lothal, Dholavira, Kalibangan, Banavali and Rakhigarhi.


What's the reference for the map? Anyhow, this still does not mean foreign archaeologists are allowed to analyze data from Indian sites. We're accepting whatever Hindutva fanatics say. Without neutral achaeologists analyzing the data, the data is as good as made up imo.

IT also shows the major sites in Pakistan including Mohenjodaro, Chanhu Dero, Ganweriwala, Harappa and pre-harappan site Mehrgarh

Lothal might have been a major site in India, let's assume the others are genuine (for which we have no proof other than the work of some potential Hindutva fanatics like Dr Gupta), in no way does Kalibangan, Kalivali or many of the Indian sites you've quoted compare to Mohenjendaro or Harrappa. What has been discovered at these 5 major sites? Do you know?

Also shows the sites along the now dry Saraswati river or Ghaggar-Hakra River.

RR, your post about the 500 sites along the Saraswati is shown here...there seem to be plenty of minor sites along the Ghaggar-Hakra bed.....

Also a major chunk along the Saraswati is in Pakistan, so obviously not excavated by Indian researchers.

I said before that a major part of the Ghaggar-Hakra Riverbed runs through Pakistan. I actually trust the sites discovered in Pakistan because foreign archaeologist will have had a hand in them (not Indian or Pakistani). Even if you count up the number of sites there's around 130 in Pakistan, and around 76 in India (none of which have been independenly confirmed), with some in Afghanistan and Iran

Looks like Dr. Gupta's 500 isn't as far from reality as we thought eh?

So far, he's 400 off. There's around 80 in Pakistan, and 30 in India along the Saraswati. The Indus River in that map has had its sites cut down it seems. What's the reference?
 
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Here's one map (trade) that shows the importance of Indian sites compared to Harrappa. Note this is not an Indian or a Pakistani website. What was that about the rest of the world believing your eminent Hindutva archaeologists? :enjoy:

 
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Lothal might have been a major site in India, let's assume the others are genuine (for which we have no proof other than the work of some potential Hindutva fanatics like Dr Gupta), in no way does Kalibangan, Kalivali or many of the Indian sites you've quoted compare to Mohenjendaro or Harrappa. What has been discovered at these 5 major sites? Do you know?

I have already posted articles that give precise details regarding the artefacts such as statues, seals, signboard, burial chambers, jewellry, pottery etc. found at the site if you care to read.

I have also posted the map of the site Dholavira, the details of the citadel, upper town, lower town, city planning,water reservoir system etc. along with an accurate 3D reconstruction of the site. Its entirely up to you to either accept them or dismiss them as imagination.

I have also posted details about Rakhigarhi and Lothal earlier if you care to read. Those articles clearly state that Rakhigarhi etc. match Harappa or Mohenjodaro in terms of size and sophistication.

The map is also posted earlier by me in my links. Obviously you haven't bothered to read any of it....assuming it to be propaganda. I am not surprised at how prejudiced you are, simply dismissing stuff without reading it.

I said before that a major part of the Ghaggar-Hakra Riverbed runs through Pakistan. I actually trust the sites discovered in Pakistan because foreign archaeologist will have had a hand in them (not Indian or Pakistani). Even if you count up the number of sites there's around 130 in Pakistan, and around 76 in India (none of which have been independenly confirmed), with some in Afghanistan and Iran

Yes, well we'll just have to disagree on that one till some foreign archaeologists also choose participate in the excavations in India.


So far, he's 400 off. There's around 80 in Pakistan, and 30 in India along
the Saraswati. The Indus River in that map has had its sites cut down it seems. What's the reference?

I'm assuming that even the "minor" sites are incomplete. Probably even smaller sites, which are insignificant to show on the map are present, perhaps in very close proxmity to one another.
 
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Here's one map (trade) that shows the importance of Indian sites compared to Harrappa. Note this is not an Indian or a Pakistani website. What was that about the rest of the world believing your eminent Hindutva archaeologists? :enjoy:

Please give your source for the image.


We must remember that only recently has the importance of the sites present in India come to light, so most of the older books and articles written on the subject give a lopsided view.

Only recently (1990s-2000s) have papers been published that take into consideration the importance of the finds in India.

The French archaeologist is only one of the many people who are reinterpreting their ideas based on more recent excavations.
 
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Of course they do. That's why several "eminent" Indian archaeologist have been caught manipulating IVC data. Keep believing it :agree:

Hey, if the frenchie believes it, I don't have any problems either!!
 
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Primitive "Chess Pieces" found at Lothal point to an early board game:

32f66ca9688533b12cdcfec38ae9d2fb.jpg
 
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Any society capable of town-planning, shipping, refined arts and crafts, writing, sustained trading, necessarily has to master a good deal of technology. This was also the case here. Craftsmen often used standardized tools and techniques, especially for the more complex productions. A highly standardized system of stone weights, unique in the ancient world, was found not only throughout the Harappan settlements, but also two thousand years later in the first kingdoms of the Ganga plains. (The weights were mostly cubes, but sometimes also truncated spheres.) The first seven weights in the system followed a geometrical progression, with ratios of 1 : 2 : 4 : 8 : 16 (by which time the weight had reached 13.7g) : 32 : 64, after which the increments switched to a decimal system and went 160, 200, 320, 640, 1600, 3200, 6400, 8000 and 12,800. The largest weight found in Mohenjo-daro is 10,865 grams. Now, if you divide its corresponding ratio of 12,800 by the ratio 16, you get 800 ; multiply this figure by the weight of 13.7 g found for the 16th ratio, and you get a theoretical weight of 10,960g — a difference of only 95g with the actual weight, or less than 0.9% ! I don’t think the weights used today in our markets reach such precision, not to speak of those traders who get their weights tailor-made !

^^^^^^Wow!!
 
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What we have seen so far, and very briefly, is only the most visible features of the Indus-Sarasvati civilization. The internal and external mechanics of such a society are infinitely complex, and will no doubt keep archaeologists racking their brains for some more time. For example, while a few of them see the Harappan political organization as an empire, with Mohenjo-daro as the seat of the emperor and a number of “governors” in the regional capitals, others are in favour of regional states, in view of the difficulty posed by a single central authority over such vast distances without our modern communications. Those regional states would have had identities of their own (as evidenced from regional variations in arts and crafts), but they would all have been united by a common culture, and also by a common language (regardless of possible regional dialects). B. B. Lal, for instance, brings a parallel between the Harappan society and the Sixteen States or Mahajanapadas of later Buddhist times. This hypothesis is strengthened by the lack of any glorification or even representation of rulers on the seals ; even the few sculptures of human figures found at Mohenjo-daro cannot be said to represent rulers with any great certainty.
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Wednesday, April 22, 1998

Dholavira upturns an idea or two

Anand Sundas
Dholavira, April 21: Dholavira. The lost empire that 300 labourers and a six-member team of archaeologists have made it their mission to rediscover. Temperatures of 50 degree Celsius be damned. And finally, after seven long years of hope and sweat, they have stumbled on to something really big.

It was perhaps a poignant irony of fate that a place which once cradled one of the oldest and most sophisticated civilisations is today far from civilisation. So far that, apart from the chartered tourism buses or the taxis that you succeed in hiring only after much wrangling and enticing there is no mode of transportation to Dholavira. But as they say, history repeats itself.

Dholavira, perched in the middle of the Khadir island, along the Rann of Kutch, is again the cynosure of all eyes -- western and Indian -- especially after the excavation of the oldest and largest reservoir with archaeologists expecting to unearth at least 60 metres more. So, apart from reports of Bill Clinton including the civilisational site in his Indian itinerary, there is the National Geographic team camped out there and a host of TV channels either in or trying to get in. Ministers, bureaucrats, businessmen have suddenly woken up with a jolt to the reality that is Dholavira.

The site has also proven wrong some age-old and widely held archaeological `truths'. For instance, Dholavira -- meaning white well -- has proven that the Indus culture (Harappan, as archaeologists prefer to call it these days) was not totally a riverine civilisation, as it is in the middle of a Rann.



So both academically and archaeologically, the site today is the most important of all Harappan sites, including the three in Pakistan -- Mohenjodaro, Harappa and Gandhariwala -- and Rakhigari in India.


It is also the most sophisticated and scientifically built site; unlike other sites, 80 per cent of what has been excavated has been found intact.


Archaeologists can't stop talking about the site. R S Bisht, director (Explorations & Excavations), ASI says: ``Even after 5,000 years the 32 steps that lead to the reservoir still retain their geometrical balance.

This Indus capital-city site shows how man first came, settled and then abandoned the site for more comfortable ones. It was only after 1,500 years of habitation that the people started moving north towards sites near Ganga and Yamuna, at about the time when the Mahabharata was being fought out.'' Another unique feature of the site is the ``tremendous sense of town planning.''

As Sanjay Singh, archaeologist and site supervisor, says: ``The concepts that were later detailed in the Rg Veda and the Puranas are all there. For instance, there is the param vesthinah, madhyam vesthinah and awam vesthinah. The upper, middle and lower towns. The stadium or the Rangbhumi too has been executed according to Pauranic patterns.''

Seven years of exploration -- officially the site was first excavated in 1969-70 by J.P. Joshi, who was looking for a trade route from Pakistan-Sindh to Lothal -- have thrown up more than 22,000 artefacts, seals of terracota and steatite, stone pillar members with a plating of chocolate and yellow that line the east and north gate.

``We have also recovered 37 micro beads of gold which cannot be picked up by bare fingers. Look at the size of the beads and you wonder what kind of hammer they used to round them off so perfectly and then what kind of a boring instrument they must have used to drive a hole within,'' says Bisht. Bisht says that Dholavira has added an enormous amount of information towards understanding the Harappan culture.

``This site is special in more ways than one,'' he said. ``The city planning, aesthetic architecture, hydraulic engineering and concern for water conservation, along with the funerary architecture are just amazing. Also, this city has given an authentic account of the rise and fall of the Harappan civilisation. Of how the grand urban culture became increasingly rural towards the end.''

The site also boasts of a multi-purpose stadium, the oldest and biggest in the world, with three sides for spectators and a path for ceremonial procession. There is a smaller stadium beside it.

``We have conclusive evidence to prove that they were also used as haat bazaars with national and international business transactions taking place,'' adds Bisht.

Archaeologists have also for the first time found an outer city wall along with the first ever evidence of damming the channels (Mansar and Manhar) for water harnessing. Interestingly, at all the dam sites archaeologists have found clusters of houses, probably for the staff to look after the dams!

``They knew the value of measuring distance according to laws of horizontality and verticality,'' says Bisht before signing off:

``Even if the government today, after 5,000 years, makes the kind of arrangement that the Harappan people made then there will be no scarcity of water in the region.''

Perhaps. For, it is never too late to learn.

Dholavira upturns an idea or two

My God, the sophistication of these people is amazing!!
 
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A mystifying script
Why did the Indus love baths and unicorns?


BY TIM APPENZELLER

Four thousand years ago, the world's first known billboard looked down on one of the world's first great cities.
The imposing stone metropolis, now called Dholavira, sat on an island in a salt marsh in northwestern India. Three sets of walls enclosed it, and its gates opened onto broad plazas, bustling workshops, and busy markets. The 9-foot- wide wooden sign, remnants of which were found a decade ago, may have hung on a central tower, where its 15-inch white gypsum letters would have proclaimed to all literate citizens and visitors ... well, that's where the picture blurs, because today, no one can read the ancient script.

What name or slogan loomed over Dholavira is just one of the many puzzles of the ancient Indus civilization, which flourished along the modern Indus River and a now vanished river to the east between 2600 and 1900 B.C. The Indus erected half a dozen major cities of brick and stone boasting amenities unmatched in the ancient world, including sewers and baths. Digging into mounds that now entomb these cities on the dusty plains of Pakistan and northwestern India, archaeologists have found exquisite jewelry, statuary, and ceramics decorated with real and fanciful animals, including unicorns by the hundreds.

But they have found little to reveal the beliefs that sparked the culture and held it together for 700 years until it withered, perhaps because shifting rivers flooded some cities and parched others. Those secrets may be uncovered when archaeologists can finally read the script that adorned that ancient billboard--but perhaps not even then.

Gentle people. The news of the Indus Valley cities reached the modern world 75 years ago in the pages of the Illustrated London News, where British archaeologist John Marshall announced the discovery of a civilization that turned out to be as old as Mesopotamia. Many scholars expected the ruins would reveal a culture much like it. But the more Marshall and his successors dug, the less the Indus culture looked like other Bronze Age societies. "There's no evidence for armies or war or anything like that," says archaeologist Jim Shaffer of Case Western Reserve University.

Nor is there any sign of grandiose rulers. "There was no cult of the individual," says Harvard University's Richard Meadow, who is excavating an Indus city called Harappa, in modern Pakistan. There are "no fancy burials, no monumental displays of wealth."

Somehow, without war or charismatic strongmen, the Indus people imposed their culture across a territory larger than France. Everywhere, their builders made bricks in a length-to-width-to-height ratio of 4 to 2 to 1, a signature of Indus construction. Tax collectors used standardized weights to assay goods, potters turned out identical designs, and the elite carried soapstone seals, embossed with Indus script and animal designs, to stamp trade goods. "They also had tremendous craft technology, if not the best craft technology in the Bronze Age," says Shaffer. In city after city, the Indus people built deep, brick-lined wells, smelted and cast copper and bronze, and made jewelry.

The cohesion of the Indus culture may have been rooted in commerce. "Possibly it was a large economic empire with a strong sense of national ethos," says R.S. Bisht of the Archaeological Survey of India, who heads the excavations at Dholavira. The Indus people sought raw materials, including metals and semi*precious stones, from as far away as Afghanistan, and their ships carried beads, bangles, and other products up the Persian Gulf to the cities of Mesopotamia. These trade links might have kept the elite of the far-flung Indus realm in close touch.

Others think something more esoteric must have held the Indus culture together. "In the absence of a political elite, of a standing army, one is left with the symbolic–a system of beliefs," says Shaffer. But decades of digging have revealed nothing like the elaborate temples of ancient Egypt and Mesopotamia.

Clean freaks. Still, the cities do hold clues, says archaeologist Gregory Possehl of the University of Pennsylvania. When it came to sanitation, the Indus people seem to have been as obsessive as modern Americans. Ubiquitous wells and baths–many private houses had them–"make a strong case that people there were re* ally into water, symbolically and in terms of purification," Possehl says. The Great Bath at Mohenjo Daro in Pakistan, 40 feet long and 8 feet deep, may have been the Indus equivalent of a temple.

Water wasn't the only force in Indus spiritual life. Seals and tablets found in the ruins depict unicorns, three-headed buffaloes, and encounters between humans, gods, and beasts. "If we could unravel these folk tales," says Possehl, "we could get into the ideology of the Indus people."

The inscriptions might help–if archaeologists could read them. Archaeologists think that some of the writing identifies the seal's owner. In other cases, the procession of symbols, which look tantalizingly like real objects–a trident, a fish, a two-handled jar–may narrate a story.

Would-be decipherers have published more than 50 claims of success, but most scholars think the Indus code is yet to be cracked. So far, no one has found anything like the Rosetta stone that unlocked the hieroglyphics of ancient Egypt: a bilingual inscription with both the undeciphered script and a known script.

But where there are ruins, there is hope. Archaeologists are digging deeper at Harappa and other sites. What they find may, finally, give a voice to the Indus people.

Ancient Indus - Mysteries of History - U.S. News Online
 
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I have already posted articles that give precise details regarding the artefacts such as statues, seals, signboard, burial chambers, jewellry, pottery etc. found at the site if you care to read.

You're posting things at random. You've posted so much irrelevant stuff that I haven't bothered opening half of your links except to check who authored them.

I have also posted the map of the site Dholavira, the details of the citadel, upper town, lower town, city planning,water reservoir system etc. along with an accurate 3D reconstruction of the site. Its entirely up to you to either accept them or dismiss them as imagination.

THESE ARE RENDERINGS! Don't you get the difference between fact and renderings????

I have also posted details about Rakhigarhi and Lothal earlier if you care to read. Those articles clearly state that Rakhigarhi etc. match Harappa or Mohenjodaro in terms of size and sophistication.

The map is also posted earlier by me in my links. Obviously you haven't bothered to read any of it....assuming it to be propaganda. I am not surprised at how prejudiced you are, simply dismissing stuff without reading it.

So your map is by an Indian for an Indian website. Unsurprising but at least it even admits around 70% of IVC sites were in Pakistan. Around 25%-30% in India

Yes, well we'll just have to disagree on that one till some foreign archaeologists also choose participate in the excavations in India.

If you want credibility, you will need some neutrality in your excavations. It's a known fact Hindutva inside and outside of the Indian government want to claim IVC as their own (Pak government doesn't seem to have an agenda with it though).
 
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You're posting things at random. You've posted so much irrelevant stuff that I haven't bothered opening half of your links except to check who authored them.

They are irrelevant even though you haven't bothered to read them?

Verdict before trial?

Kindly put your misgivings and biases aside and give a different POV some honest thought.

THESE ARE RENDERINGS! Don't you get the difference between fact and renderings????

The renderings are ditto according to the excavated site.

Similar renderings are available for Harappa and Mohenjodaro as well, if you care to find them.

So your map is by an Indian for an Indian website. Unsurprising but at least it even admits around 70% of IVC sites were in Pakistan. Around 25%-30% in India

Its by a foreigner on his website.

There is nothing to admit. Indian researchers don't have an agenda and are presenting an unbiased picture of the civilization.

I haven't counted the total number of sites and neither is it possible to do so. There may be hundreds more such sites buried under cities, towns or in remote places.

If you want credibility, you will need some neutrality in your excavations. It's a known fact Hindutva inside and outside of the Indian government want to claim IVC as their own (Pak government doesn't seem to have an agenda with it though).

Pak government simply wants to shut its eye to pre-islamic history. Too bad.

The excavations are perfectly neutral and their work has been recognized by the international community.
If you can't think beyond your biases, then there is little to be said.
 
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A mystifying script
Why did the Indus love baths and unicorns?


BY TIM APPENZELLER

Four thousand years ago, the world's first known billboard looked down on one of the world's first great cities.
The imposing stone metropolis, now called Dholavira, sat on an island in a salt marsh in northwestern India. Three sets of walls enclosed it, and its gates opened onto broad plazas, bustling workshops, and busy markets. The 9-foot- wide wooden sign, remnants of which were found a decade ago, may have hung on a central tower, where its 15-inch white gypsum letters would have proclaimed to all literate citizens and visitors ... well, that's where the picture blurs, because today, no one can read the ancient script.

Ancient Indus - Mysteries of History - U.S. News Online

Perhaps you should have highlighted that it says "stone metropolis" and all the other IVC sites used brick? Why do you think that was?

If Dholivira was this great city, then let neutral archaeologists excavate some data from it, instead of only letting them do renderings or inviting them to conferences to make the Indian conclusions more valid. The Archaeological Survey of India (since partition) has become under the hand of the Indian government, in which Hindutva have been in charge, and still have a strong presence in political circles.
 
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roadrunner,

How you call yourselves the descendants of the IVC people? This land is invaded by lots of army. Your ancestors could be a migrant from present day Iran, Iraq or even further away. Even your ancestors might be the cause for the destruction of the IVC.

Wouldn't accepting this as your ancient civilization negate the current theory of "Ancient people of this land lived in a dark age and Islam brought light to this land"?
 
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