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Ancient History not Appreciated by Pakistanis?

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The above french archaeologist also supports my view, that since there was no concept of nation in the IVC, we should refrain from calling it either solely "Indian" or solely "Pakistani".

It belongs to both nations, to the people of the subcontinent, and to the world.
 
Oh, I see, well why didnt you say that before.

Seriously though, you have no way of knowing that, and the current propaganda suggests otherwise.

You considering it propaganda doesn't make it propaganda.

An academic paper is not propaganda.

A cheap article on a website or newspaper, written by unqualified people without references, is propaganda.


Please stop equating Indian research with propaganda. It is not. It is well respected and accepted.

Kindly read the interview with the French excavator of some sites n Pakistan, which I have pasted earlier.

He has clearly endorsed the work of his Indian colleagues. I don't see why you cannot.
 
The above french archaeologist also supports my view, that since there was no concept of nation in the IVC, we should refrain from calling it either solely "Indian" or solely "Pakistani".

It belongs to both nations, to the people of the subcontinent, and to the world.

It belongs to the home of the Indus Valley first, i.e Pakistan, and then the whole world.

You still have to explain where India keeps coming into the story, and why it should receive the same priority as Pakistan.
 
It belongs to the home of the Indus Valley first, i.e Pakistan, and then the whole world.

You still have to explain where India keeps coming into the story, and why it should receive the same priority as Pakistan.

I have explained already, because equally significant finds have been made in India as well.


I believe I have posted more than enough material on this subject, if you care to read through it patiently.

I have also pasted links and interviews, from both Indians and Foreign archeologists.

So accept the facts, otherwise continue calling Indian sites as fakes and disguised slums, and keep living in dreamworld.
 
I have explained already, because equally significant finds have been made in India as well.

I believe I have posted more than enough material on this subject, if you care to read through it patiently.

I have also pasted links and interviews, from both Indians and Foreign archeologists.

So accept the facts, otherwise continue calling Indian sites as fakes and disguised slums, and keep living in dreamworld.

We have very different ideas of what "equally significant" means. I can assure you the sites in India are not even close to the ones in Pakistan. Nothing so far compares to Harappa and Mohenjo Daro, and I dont know why you refuse to accept that.

You clearly have an agenda by not accepting the significance of the Pakistani sites. You keep going on about India having the same amount of "significant sites", and it thats not a nationalist agenda, I dont know what is.
You are not interested in Indus Valley, but simply trying to push the agenda that India should be the center.

And your attempts to link Hinduism to IVC already took away whatever credibility you had. Sorry. I am sure you remember what happened to the "scientists" who claimed they had deciphered the IV scripts, and the "translation" turned out to be verses from the rgveda. The whole world laughed at them. And then they laughed some more.
 
We have very different ideas of what "equally significant" means. I can assure you the sites in India are not even close to the ones in Pakistan. Nothing so far compares to Harappa and Mohenjo Daro, and I dont know why you refuse to accept that.

In terms of what?

In the beginning of this thread, you didn't even accept the existence of Indian sites, calling them fabrications.

I posted details of the sites, which clearly show their sophistication and scale which
clearly match up to the 2 earlier excavations in Pakistan.

Then after a long time you admitted that sites may exist in India, but they have been exaggerated greatly.

I have demonstrated with an interview with the person incharge of excavation of sites in Paksitan, that he considers work done by his Indian colleagues as credible.

But sill you refuse to accept the facts.

Really, and its you who is questioning my credibility? Roardunner is comparing the excavations to slums, you are calling archaeologists as propagandists.


If anything, your credibility is in question here.


You clearly have an agenda by not accepting the significance of the Pakistani sites. You keep going on about India having the same amount of "significant sites", and it thats not a nationalist agenda, I dont know what is.
You are not interested in Indus Valley, but simply trying to push the agenda that India should be the center.

What? When did I not accept the significance of Pakistani sites? Stop making things up buddy.

I am simply posting links showing the significance of sites discovered on the Indian side, thats all.

Neither am I claiming that India is the center. Stop your daydreaming and please READ WHAT I HAVE WRITTEN.



And your attempts to link Hinduism to IVC already took whatever credibility you had, away. Sorry. I am sure you remember what happened to the "scientists" who claimed they had deciphered the IV scripts, and the "translation" turned out to be verses from the rgveda. The whole world laughed at them. And then they laughed some more.

I have not attempted anything, several historians think this way. There are similarities between IVC religion and hinduism and proto-Iranian religion.

If you refuse to see the similarities, then there is nothing more to be said.

I don't remember anyone laughing at anyone else. Perhaps you guys were laughing since you cannot take research at face value.
 
Interesting Interview:(French Gentleman selected for doubting Pakistanis)

INTERVIEW: M. Jean-Francois Jarrige, Membre de L’Institut, and President of the Musee National des Arts Asiatiques- Guimet

P.S>>>above French means "President of National Museum of Asian Art"<<<


Harappan civilisation came from an internal dynamic


QUESTION: How would you reinterpret the whole Indus Valley civilisation scenario in the light of your excavations in India and Pakistan?[/B]

ANSWER: The work we have been conducting on the western side of the Indus and all the work done by Indian archaeologists on the eastern side

Exactly the point I've been making to you. All the work in India has been done by Indian archaeologists. This French guy is doing the work on the Pakistani side. He's neutral. Perhaps he's a bit naive of the Indian mindset and Hindutva fanatics who want IVC as a Bharati civilization.
 
Change that chapter

ONCE upon a time, there lived in Mohenjodaro and Harappa on the Indus Valley a highly organised and urbanised people. Their towns and cities were so well planned that we have not been able to replicate that in India today. Their residences were in blocks and their drainages were far superior to the dirty open nullahs you see in Amritsar or Delhi. They had private granaries, forts and fortifications, sprawling upper, middle and lower towns. They were great mariners, manufacturing goods and trading them far and near. They may not have had currency, but their seals, pottery, arts and crafts suggest that they had a sense of mathematical proportion, standardisation, precision and a writing system. Overnight, their towns were destroyed, and they were driven out, probably by a hoard of horse-riding, fair-skinned aliens. Then followed the Dark Ages, till the birth of Buddha in 600 BC. That is roughly what children learn about ancient Indian history. There is not a clue in the textbooks as to who built that fabulous civilisation, and where they came from. And why did the aliens destroy the towns instead of occupying them? The chapter on the Indus Valley civilisation, and much of ancient Indian history, has to be rewritten, say archaeologists who have been working on the Harappan sites.

The lesson being taught is based only on the excavation of Mohenjodaro and Harappa, the first Indus sites to come to light, in 1921-22. Excavations in India, Pakistan and Afghanistan in the last 50 years have shown that the Indus Valley civilisation was not just the story of two towns, it touched Manda on the Beas in the north, Bhagattrao on the Tapti in Maharashtra, stretched to Alamgir on the Hindon in the east, and in the west to Satkangedor near eastern Iran! An area of 1.25 million square kilometres. The civilisation included metros like Mohenjodaro, Harappa, Ghaneriwala (in Pakistan), Dholavira and Rakhigarhi; towns like Lothal, Surkotda, Banawali and Kalibangan, and villages like Kunal. The excavations exposed not just a town or city, but an earlier settlement beneath it, and an even earlier one further down. According to archaeologist Ravindra Singh Bhist (pic: above), before the mature Harappan stage, many regional cultures-Amri, Kot dirji, Kalibangan, Dholavira and Lothal-had coalesced into the cultural umbrella of Harappa. They were strongly bound by common economic compulsions, system and cultural ethos. Could it have been an internal conflict-a civil war of sorts-that brought them to ruin? Bhist says: "Every raja wanted to be the emperor. And so the break-up. And now we have the continuous history of India, from 7000 BC to 600 BC to date. No dark ages." History books have to be revised not only in the context of the Harappan culture, but also other things, these archaeologists suggest. "If we followed history books, the whole civilisation would start and end with Harappa and Mohenjodaro," says Amarendranath. "Nobody teaches students about Kalibangan, which was exposed in the early 60s." He also laments the fact that there is no matching of literature and excavations.

Brahminism's new archeological evidence suggests that history of civilisation dates to Rig Vedic people
 
Exactly the point I've been making to you. All the work in India has been done by Indian archaeologists. This French guy is doing the work on the Pakistani side. He's neutral. Perhaps he's a bit naive of the Indian mindset and Hindutva fanatics who want IVC as a Bharati civilization.

Don't give me that "naive french guy" bullshit. First read the entire article to the last word, then comment.

He didn't just listen to hindutva stories from the Indians and trust them on their word.

There is a scientific method and a particular protocol while excavating, which all archaeologists follow.

He was in India to visit those very sites you are calling fake.

Your arguments are getting worse.

First you say they are slums, then you call the eminent archaeologist naive and unaware of "indian Mindset" whatever that means.

You are simply stalling buddy, even the most eminent archaeologists have verified the finds and recognised the work done by Indians. Don't insult your and my intelligence by still claiming that the indian sites are a fraud.
 
Don't give me that "naive french guy" bullshit. First read the entire article to the last word, then comment.

He didn't just listen to hindutva stories from the Indians and trust them on their word.

There is a scientific method and a particular protocol while excavating, which all archaeologists follow.

He was in India to visit those very sites you are calling fake.

Your arguments are getting worse.

First you say they are slums, then you call the eminent archaeologist naive and unaware of "indian Mindset" whatever that means.

You are simply stalling buddy, even the most eminent archaeologists have verified the finds and recognised the work done by Indians. Don't insult your and my intelligence by still claiming that the indian sites are a fraud.

I have already given you sources stating that Dholavira was inhabited by Indians until 1450. You cant call that structure "Ancient", which is why the whole research there is a scam.

In fact, I will get someone to put a washing machine somewhere in Harappa and then I can claim the IVC people manufactured their own washing machines.

And why dont you question the Hinduism claims yourself. Before the discovery of Harappa in 1920 something, Hindu texts never referred to any great civilisation in that region. All those claims and "ancient sources" popped up after the discovery of Harappa. go figure.

And remember what I said about the artefacts found in Pakistan, and playing a great part in making Pakistani sites part of IVC? No significant artefacts have been found in the so called Indian sites. Not even with Dholavira being inhabited until as recently as 600 years ago. There goes that "culture" link.
 
I have already given you sources stating that Dholavira was inhabited by Indians until 1450. You cant call that structure "Ancient", which is why the whole research there is a scam.

Dude. You simply don't know the first thing about archaeology.

There is something called "mounds" and "levels" and "carbon dating", which is used to ascertain the age of a site.

People just don't discover a brick wall and name it harappan.

Please don't insult my intelligence.

In fact, I will get someone to put a washing machine somewhere in Harappa and then I can claim the IVC people manufactured their own washing machines.

Only someone of your level will get fooled by such a scam.

If eminent archaeologists have verified it, you shouldn't be branding yourself an idiot by making such statements.

And why dont you question the Hinduism claims yourself. Before the discovery of Harappa in 1920 something, Hindu texts never referred to any great civilisation in that region. All those claims and "ancient sources" popped up after the discovery of Harappa. go figure.

I have no idea what you are talking about. In any case, it has little to do with the similarities between Hinduism and IVC religion.


And remember what I said about the artefacts found in Pakistan, and playing a great part in making Pakistani sites part of IVC? No significant artefacts have been found in the so called Indian sites. Not even with Dholavira being inhabited until as recently as 600 years ago. There goes that "culture" link.

Really?

Statues have been found.
Seals have been found.
Pottery has been found.
Metalwork has been found.
Fishing equipment has been found
Surveying instruments have been found.

All this info is available in the numerous links that i posted earlier.

If this isn't good enough for you, then you are simply blind to the facts.
 
Dude. You simply don't know the first thing about archaeology.

There is something called "mounds" and "levels" and "carbon dating", which is used to ascertain the age of a site.

People just don't discover a brick wall and name it harappan.

Please don't insult my intelligence.

Another important part of archaeology (and any research), is creditability. Which researchers have dated the stone (not brick) of Dhalivira toth time of the IVC? One reference will do. They won't even let this French guy into India to confirm any of the work. He just "trusts" Hindutva propagandists.
 
Dude. You simply don't know the first thing about archaeology.

There is something called "mounds" and "levels" and "carbon dating", which is used to ascertain the age of a site.

People just don't discover a brick wall and name it harappan.

Please don't insult my intelligence.



Only someone of your level will get fooled by such a scam.

If eminent archaeologists have verified it, you shouldn't be branding yourself an idiot by making such statements.



I have no idea what you are talking about. In any case, it has little to do with the similarities between Hinduism and IVC religion.




Really?

Statues have been found.
Seals have been found.
Pottery has been found.
Metalwork has been found.
Fishing equipment has been found
Surveying instruments have been found.

All this info is available in the numerous links that i posted earlier.

If this isn't good enough for you, then you are simply blind to the facts.


Your language us getting more abusive, and with the personal insults, you have already lost the debate.

The argument is very simple, Let non Indian researchers work on so called Indian sites and we will see. Currently its only Indians writing the journals and presenting their so called facts, which usually leads to imaginary links with Hinduism. Thats the Agenda right there, and you cant even hide it. The frustrations is really visible now.

Please keep this debate clean, You are dismissing my points with claims that, I dont know the slightest thing about this and that. I do know about archaeology, and the Indians living in the city in 1450 IS being considered as an ancient part of Dholavira.
 
Some Hindutva "experts" do publish propaganda from time to time, but none of those guys are archaeologists, nor do they publish academic papers.

You mean Dr. Gupta's 500 IVC sites along the Ghaggar-Hakra riverbed was not published in an Indian academic paper? :agree:

Gupta, S. P. (ed.) (1995). The lost Sarasvati and the Indus Civilisation. Jodhpur: Kusumanjali Prakashan.

Is not Kusumanjali Parkashan an academic journal from Jodhpur, India? This link says it is an academic publication on historical stuff in India though..Surely not!

Indica et Buddhica - Scholia: Search Interface Result for Publisher = Kusumanjali.,
 
Another important part of archaeology (and any research), is creditability. Which researchers have dated the stone (not brick) of Dhalivira toth time of the IVC? One reference will do. They won't even let this French guy into India to confirm any of the work. He just "trusts" Hindutva propagandists.

Huh? He came to India. He saw the sites. He met his Indian counterparts. He verified their work.

He also gave the interview.

Didn't you read the article? If you didn't read it, then please do so, otherwise kindly refrain from posting.
 
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