American attack aftermath: Pakistan declares attack a 'plot'

[iPhone]

it seems Obama and co. are determined to embarass PA in front of Pakistanis and the world. If OBL raid and this attack wasn't enough, today they threw in another bit that not only Pantagon contacted PA beforehand but also got clearence for the attack. And PA is so incompetent that they did not even know that their posts were occupied or not.

I know, they didn't say that, but you gotta read in between the lines sometimes to get the message being sent.

PA is gonna pay for their refusal to go into NWA. PA is gonna pay for NATO/US failures in afgh. Pakistan army is gonna pay for it in terms of human and finincial losses as well as honerable and diginatary ones.

That's why they come with a totally contradictary story to that of PA's. It's a classic cover up tactic. You wait for the first person's account of event and come up with a totally different one entraping the first person. It becomes your word against the other.

 

[Mabs]

Pakistan would have been much better off taking the covert way rather than this overt display of bravado. Pak can and has made US's stay in the Afghanistan very unpleasant, it could have just up the the ante after the Salala Incident which would have fetched the desired results, discreetly, but the problem is, Pak Army and the people want to SEE the US being punished. We have been told for so long that we are a nuclear power and nothing could harm us that it is impossible for the people to even conjure up the idea that we are helpless. Kayani's order may heal the egos of his men but that's pretty much all it will do.

I have always maintained that wars are fought with weapons but won with economics. Pakistan is not out of options militarily but economically. Muhammad Ali wasn't the biggest guy in the ring but he hung in there til the end. We can initiate and fight a war with the US - the question is for how long.

 

[TARIQ BN ZIYAAD]

Assalam alaikum

nobody is asking for war but can somebody tell us if that lose would be the last ? if not then we must cry loud and protest to let the others we r suffering. otherwise these trigger happy terrorists will come and kill on normal bases.

is it acceptable?

TARIQ

 

[Hulk]

The news today about NATO planning to launch sustained attack on eastern Afghanistan to reduce taliban seems to have a relation. They are planning to clean- up this side. It is beginning I guess.

 

[Devil Soul]

Pakistan elected not to participate in joint NATO attack investigation: US DoD
By Huma Imtiaz
Published: December 3, 2011
WASHINGTON: US on Friday said that Pakistan had been invited to join an investigation into the cross border North Atlantic Treaty Organistaion (NATO) bombing of a Pakistani check post. However, Pakistan had elected not to participate in the investigation.
A NATO air strike – which Pakistan terms as ‘deliberate’, took place in the early hours of November 26, when NATO air craft providing close air support to ground troops attacked a Pakistani check post and then subsequent support troops which rushed to the site located in Mohmand on Pak-Afghan border. The attack killed at least 24 Pakistani soldiers and wounded a further 12.
(Read: ‘Unprovoked’: DGMO gives details of aerial assault)
Addressing a press conference at the Department of Defense, the Pentagon Press Secretary George Little in response to a question said that the relationship with Pakistan was critical. “We are partners with Pakistan…We will be working over time to resolve our differences over this and other matters.”
Captain John Kirby, the Acting Deputy Assistant Secretary of Defense, said that the NATO airstrike “has had a chilling effect on our relationship with the Pakistani military.”
Referring to General Kayani’s letter to his troops, Captain Kirby said, “Every sovereign nation has the right of self-defense and the right to order their troops to defend themselves. So do we. We respect that right of his.”
(Read: Kayani’s bold move: ‘Pakistani troops will return fire if Nato attacks again&#8217
In response to a question about Pakistan’s decision to cease co-operation with the US and Afghan forces along the border, Captain Kirby said that they hoped that they would be able to continue the kind of coordination and communication that they had been working on with Pakistan before this incident. “There had been a lot of effort put into our coordination on border control centres with Pakistanis before this incident, we hope that the same level of effort can continue.”
Regarding the NATO airstrike, Pentagon Press Secretary George Little reiterated, that this was “not in any way, shape or form an intentional attack by US military on Pakistan.” Captain John Kirby said that the incident was a military engagement, and declined to provide further comments, saying the matter was still under investigation.
The two spokespersons also declined to comment directly on the effect of the NATO supply routes closure on US troops, calling it a logistical matter. Captain Kirby said that the US had alternatives and options.
Warren Weinstein and al Qaeda
In response to a question on Warren Weinstein and the authenticity of al Qaeda leader Ayman al-Zwahiri’s claim that the kidnapped aid worker was in their custody, Captain Kirby said that they could not comment on the al Qaeda report yet.
(Read: Al Qaeda claims kidnapping of Weinstein in Pakistan)
George Little though called for Weinstein’s immediate release.
Pakistan elected not to participate in joint NATO attack investigation: US DoD – The Express Tribune

 

[Abu Zolfiqar]

ahan so Pakistan shouldnt take part in the investigation but meanwhile it should be spear-headed by the organization itself which was instrumental in attacking 24 of our troops?

oh that's rich!

no we should take part in the investigation in my view --- Pakistan should delegate military and civilian fact-finding officials in my view

 

[jynxed]

Killing Pakistani Soldiers » Counterpunch: Tells the Facts, Names the Names

 

[Abu Zolfiqar]

The news today about NATO planning to launch sustained attack on eastern Afghanistan to reduce taliban seems to have a relation. They are planning to clean- up this side. It is beginning I guess.

no, actually it's something Pakistan has called for - for quite some time; but at this point, too little and too late.

while terrorism is still afflicting Pakistan, the scales and bravado of the attacks are down dramatically --but challenges and threats are still very much there today and will be for some time.......but Pakistan single-handedly did something right which all the combined mighty NATO armies could hardly achieve outside of Kabul.


NATO should know that any repeat of last Sunday's incident would inflame Pakistanis and lead things to a totally different and unbefore seen dimension; if NATO's policy is to "fan" a direct, no-holds-barred confrontation ---then they are doing a good job and on the right track. The only difference here is that Pakistan has knowledge of the lands and has "demographics" on its side.

 

[VelocuR]

Bhai do you want go for an open war with US/NATO? Is it hard for you to understand PAF is deliberately avoiding any confrontation with USAF/NATO/ISAF? On the other side of border we have USA and 39 other countries, they have better jets, even if we engage its we who are going to bear more losses warped with their enmity. Can you guarantee PAF jets won't enter into Afghanistan's territory while engaging opponent jets at just 300 meters distance from border?

Yaar I understood. We can accept to let NATO continue to attack more on Pakistan borders and PA after taking advantages some experiments or test waters. It is appreciated Pakistan Army destory some of the terrorists camps in Waziristan and then NATO surprisingly attack Pakistan Army, don't we see big pictures?

Maybe next step NATO will bomb on PAF bases locations, still no response? Then there is something wrong on enginess ? Where is the response guarantee "attack on Pakistan would be construed as an attack on China." ?? The world see Pakistan a very shame embarrassing country, China can't do anything.

I discussed with Chinese friend today, 'do you think US attack Pakistan to draw China's attention or contain? He said it is basically hard to say if they try to draw China's attention. It is just odd NATO attacked Pakistan.'

I predict-

PAF attack by chechyan terrorist or other terrorists similar to Mehran attacks (officials have no clue or data informations)
Kiyani will be assassinated by terrorists or sympathizers
Nuke attack (false flags)

Chaloo koi baat nahein, we will be fine. I am ashamed of being Pakistani due to the 28 martyers and forty thousand civilians deaths for no reasons. Please accept today we can permit US/NATO mischevious actions on Pakistan next weeks or so.

Regular exercises, airshow or nukes/babur test must be halt immediately to save money for economy.

zindabad bravo.

 

[VelocuR]

^^ I want to make it clear, I haven't ask VCheng to thank my post or pointscores, I didn't ask for it. It is matter of my voices or criticism on Pakistan in my own independent thought. I know, some of them are afraid to criticize Pakistan.

 

[jynxed]

Raptor
You have tons of questions but you did not mention any solutions?
No picture this
Imagine..pakistan has a strong economy, leaders are in their right minds, pakistan has been progressing for past 30 years. Industry is back bone of pakistan and inventions are opening up the world gates for us
with that said now imagine the military power and might of this pakistan
now sit back and put answers to your questions with this imaginative pakistan
makes sense right you like what you see you love every single answer right ? ?

Well there you have it
Pakistan is a re-animated corpse it can only do few functions and thats about it you just can't show up to a tank battle with stones in your hand its just not going to work

Again to my beating of drums.........Think of ways to start changing and start acting on those while you have a chance instead of asking questions and asking the Chinese to answer them for you

"Khudi ko kar blund itna ke har taqdeer se pehley....khuda bande se khud pooche bata teri raza keya hai" understand the real meaning hiding in these 2 sentences

 

[Hellfire]

Yes i can , soldiers rely on orders from the high command which unfortunately wasn't given ... PAF again has to take orders from AHQ ... Nobody was allowed to retaliate so they didn't ... The same isn't the case now ...

No you cant answer. You are telling about something about which I have a very good idea. The standing operating procedure (SOP) to ANY soldier of ANY nation on ANY border is that observe and report. Now, when the air assault must have started the information would have conveyed to your higher brass. The same does not take time and is disseminated to all concerned within minutes. And SOP for any troops on an active border area is to retaliate if attacked.

Ok for arguments sake I accept that orders were not forthcoming from your higher headquarters .... when they came to know that your troops were killed, even then your armed forces did not have the guts to retaliate? DOnt you find that a bit hard to swallow? I certainly do. Knowing the PA very well .... its not some rag tag outfit ...... it has a very clear cut SOP in place and will care hoots to obtain go ahead from GoP.

And yeah if NATO has to stay in Afghanistan till 2014 and bring a face saving end to this conflict , they have to care what Pakistan says or does ... Over 40% of NATO supplies pass through Torkhum and Chaman ... You think this is a joke ?

They dont need to save any face. They have managed to attain a majority of their objectives there .... and as for supplies .... its just a minor issue ....

Russia has already started blackmailing USA over NDN for European missile defense shield ... NDN can only be kept operational until 2014 ( Russia doesn't support NATO presence in Afghanistan after 2014 )

Let me get you in on a secret .... even Russians dont like Muslim fundamentalism and find the present mess in Afghanistan to their advantage for two reasons (i) Its payback to NATO and US for their intervention only this time they dont need to arm the Talibs, they just have to laugh their heads off (ii) As long as NATO and US forces operate there, the Talibs and other good guys of Islamic Jehad Inc dont have time to divert trained cadres or train cadres for Chechnya which I must tell as another secret is a Muslim province having an active insurgency with terror strikes a regular feature in Dagestan and Ingushetia .... surprise why Russia is just letting US be there? Also the Russians are allowing movement of material and logistics through CARS for US and NATO and the ABM issue is just an attempt to wrangle a concession from them as part of payment

... Bon conference is meaningless without the participation of Pakistan ... Expect continuous civil war in Afghanistan if Pakistan refuses to co-operate ... Nobody cares about Pakistan yet foreign ministers of NATO countries are regularly calling their Pakistani counterparts and pleading for co-operation Denial mode isn't good for anyone ...

Why dont you get it? No one wants a war. You think that when Pakistan initiates ceasefire violations in LC area to push in terrorists, India does not act just because we are scared of you? Nope dear. Its because on a large part you hold your ceasefire and that means more than 90% times your troops respect it. That means peace for both sides there. The terrain and climate is harsh enough.It allows us to concentrate on our CI/CT operations without an active LC.

When the international community calls pakistan .. its not out of fear, its a matter of convenience .... a cooperative Pakistan is better than one which will further foment trouble .... its not out of recognition of Pakistan as a peacemaker that all call them, its out of it being a rogue which will undermine peace efforts that you are called. You think that is something to be proud of and something that denotes respect for you? Its more like the irritating kid who needs to be handelled to ensure he does not spoil the mood of the household.

No one can change the misfortune of Afghanistan of having Pakistan as a neighbour ... a neighbour who undermines all efforts at peace .....

Like you said Denial more isnt good for anyone, so better accept that as a fact

 

[Hellfire]

what really pains the trolls is that the Afghan majority group and the Pakistani tribal areas, KP and Balochistan share the same ethnic group that have relations on both sides of the border

so what these guys say and want does matter. Afghanistan doesn’t just rely on NATO supplies but also on food and other trade goods that comes from Pakistan, even during the Soviet occupation.

the Afghans must be "thanking" these trigger happy pillocks for causing all the disruption and will curse NATO if the whole border is blocked from any form of transportation or trade.

NATO might find ways to reroute their supplies and drone strikes but millions of Afghans cant. thats a fact.

Trolls find it very noble to blame the inaction of the PAF but just consider for a moment, why did NATO did what it did that needed PAF to respond?

the only parties laughing here are the Trolls that live their short troll life before getting banned or the terrorists who say FU very much to NATO for removing the posts that were making their incursions into KP very difficult

Oh just go ahead and accuse others of being troll when even the basic considerations of strategic impact are beyond the capabilities of your faculties ....

by being a moderator ... its incumbent upon you to be objective in your approach ... if you want to ban someone do so by all means ..... why harp on it?

 

[President Camacho]

Pakistan has right to self-defense so does US: Pentagon

As a sovereign nation Pakistan has the right to self-defense, so does the US, the Pentagon has asserted amid reports from Islamabad that Pakistan Army Chief General Ashfaq Pervez Kayani had issued direction that his commanders on the Af.Pak border can return fire without permission.

"I''ve seen the comments attributed to General Kayani. I''m certainly not going to speak for him or for the government of Pakistan. But every sovereign nation has the right of self-defense and the right to order their troops to defend themselves. That''s what my understanding is what he did: He reiterated their right of self-defense. We certainly respect that right of his. We have it as well," Pentagon spokesman Navy Capt John Kirby said.

 

[notorious_eagle]

do you think anyone cares? do you think that once the air assets of NATO started attacking your positions, the same was not relayed back to the respective formation headquarters? Do you think all soldiers were killed simultaneously that message that they were under air attack could not be passed? If anyone in Pakistan believes that then they deserve to be treated like crap like has been done.

Formation headquarter was notified quite early on when Apache's and C130's engaged PA troops. How do you think all channels of communication were activated so quickly to inform ISAF to call off the attack as they were attacking friendlies. No one in Pakistan believes that formation headquarter was in total darkness, this is just a face saving tactic that the Army is using.

US coolly killed your troops, roamed around the area for 02 hours and you guys could do noting except make impotent statements .... and praise your COAS's stupid statement of giving permission to troops to retaliate. In all likelihood your top brass including your Army Brass was in loop and they did nothing knowing they can do nothing. You engage US forces in air battle once, and then you see the fun.

Buddy, get this through your head. There is no nation in the world that can match the might of the US when it comes to military muscle, if it was an Indian Army Post, the results would not have been any different. Both the posts used all available weapons in their arsenal to try and engage the Apaches; but using rifle fire and 12.7mm AA guns against the Apache is like throwing stones at a T90 tank. We are quite well aware of our shortcomings and PA did the right thing by not sending additional resources as facts are, in a conventional head on fight we would have simply been clobbered.

Ofcourse a go ahead was given by Pakistan, that is why for two hours you could not scramble your aircrafts for strikes back at air assets which attacked your troops. Why waste bandwidth? You guys have had it. All have sold you too down the drain

For argument sakes PAF issues a scramble and launches interceptors to take down these choppers. First of all they were very close to the border so most likely their wreckage would have fallen in Afghanistan which would have definitely been a headache. Second of all, lets say if PAF did take down these choppers. How do you think the other side would have reacted, they were most likely backed by F15's and F16's whom were flying CAP's close by. ISAF after this would have rendered PAF into a flying club by clobbering them from the sea and land. PAF made absolutely the right decision by not launching interceptors and engaging these choppers as the losses would have been unbearable compared to the 24 innocent lives lost.

Pakistan in my opinion is taking absolutely the right steps by handling this issue diplomatically. Don't you see the reaction from the other side, they have gone out of their way to accommodate Pakistan and contacted Pakistan on every level to soothe the relations. The Secretary of State has personally urged Pakistan to attend the Bonn conference, it goes to show that Pakistan has emerged as the wiser one after this incident. I can assure you that if those choppers would have been downed, the reaction from the world would have been much more hostile and the possibility of a full on shooting war between NATO and Pakistan would have been very real.