American attack aftermath: Pakistan declares attack a 'plot'

[pakdefender]

Pakistan has right to self-defense so does US: Pentagon

As a sovereign nation Pakistan has the right to self-defense, so does the US, the Pentagon has asserted amid reports from Islamabad that Pakistan Army Chief General Ashfaq Pervez Kayani had issued direction that his commanders on the Af.Pak border can return fire without permission.

"I''ve seen the comments attributed to General Kayani. I''m certainly not going to speak for him or for the government of Pakistan. But every sovereign nation has the right of self-defense and the right to order their troops to defend themselves. That''s what my understanding is what he did: He reiterated their right of self-defense. We certainly respect that right of his. We have it as well," Pentagon spokesman Navy Capt John Kirby said.

Pakistan Army has witnessed first hand the the cowardly nature of the Americans in Somalia .. they went into Somalia to bully the black people there but they got booted out and in the end their bums were saved by a Pakistani unit.

 

[Hellfire]

Formation headquarter was notified quite early on when Apache's and C130's engaged PA troops. How do you think all channels of communication were activated so quickly to inform ISAF to call off the attack as they were attacking friendlies. No one in Pakistan believes that formation headquarter was in total darkness, this is just a face saving tactic that the Army is using.

Exactly my point notorious! Thanks. It was in response to few posters praising Gen Kayani's statement that is all. Why praise a statement that is too late in the day and nothing more than meant for public consumption?

I have quoted the exact people to whom I have been replying. Gen Kayani said the same thing post-Abottabad that any agression by US/ISAF/NATO next time will be retaliated against. That is what I am saying. Why just make statements if you cant do it?

Buddy, get this through your head. There is no nation in the world that can match the might of the US when it comes to military muscle, if it was an Indian Army Post, the results would not have been any different. Both the posts used all available weapons in their arsenal to try and engage the Apaches; but using rifle fire and 12.7mm AA guns against the Apache is like throwing stones at a T90 tank. We are quite well aware of our shortcomings and PA did the right thing by not sending additional resources as facts are, in a conventional head on fight we would have simply been clobbered.

Totally agreed! Infact that is what i was trying to tell secur ... that this is all hogwash ..... from 1st second on everyone was in loop so one cant deny that as a fact and making statements subsequently that permission has been given to troops to retaliate is CRAP!!!!! SOP is observe and report .... and if crossing take place/they engage to reply effectively .....

Hell your troops raise a red flag when we approach the LC and we do the same as a mutual warning ... or fire a tracer air burst .... thats SOP .... and in case either side crosses there are standing instructions to engage WITHOUT reversion for permission to higher headquarters ... the dear poster says no permission came !!!! It is exasperating ..... how can one be so naive .... and a moderator joins in to call me a troll and threatens a ban .... what nonsense ... if one tries to logically reason out, you get a boot .. just coz of my flag

In another thread I took on an Indian poster about his claims which were crap .... this is PDF .... supposedly most professional site ... yet you see strange people here

For argument sakes PAF issues a scramble and launches interceptors to take down these choppers. First of all they were very close to the border so most likely their wreckage would have fallen in Afghanistan which would have definitely been a headache. Second of all, lets say if PAF did take down these choppers. How do you think the other side would have reacted, they were most likely backed by F15's and F16's whom were flying CAP's close by. ISAF after this would have rendered PAF into a flying club by clobbering them from the sea and land. PAF made absolutely the right decision by not launching interceptors and engaging these choppers as the losses would have been unbearable compared to the 24 innocent lives lost.

Exactly a point have been trying to make. Thank you .... if I had said this .... Mr Irfan Bloch the Moderator would have labelled me a troll ... !!!! I totally agree with you. The US did this ... and by making such a statement the COAS has played into their hands ..... now the US has just said 'Pakistan is a sovereign nation and has a right to defend itself and so do we' in response to his statement. It has done nothing but to call his bluff over it ... COAS should have just shut up and not made such a statement. Now the PA will loose face next time round. And next time round will occur again.

Pakistan in my opinion is taking absolutely the right steps by handling this issue diplomatically. Don't you see the reaction from the other side, they have gone out of their way to accommodate Pakistan and contacted Pakistan on every level to soothe the relations. The Secretary of State has personally urged Pakistan to attend the Bonn conference, it goes to show that Pakistan has emerged as the wiser one after this incident. I can assure you that if those choppers would have been downed, the reaction from the world would have been much more hostile and the possibility of a full on shooting war between NATO and Pakistan would have been very real.

I agree on that. But the confrontational attitude adopted by GoP and PA's Chief is not helpful as had they accepted apology and taken a hard stand, the thing would have been more effective. Now its going to drive into US that Pakistan is playing a hardball and if push comes to a shove, we both know who ends up loosing!!!

 

[pakdefender]

Exactly my point notorious! Thanks. It was in response to few posters praising Gen Kayani's statement that is all. Why praise a statement that is too late in the day and nothing more than meant for public consumption?

I have quoted the exact people to whom I have been replying. Gen Kayani said the same thing post-Abottabad that any agression by US/ISAF/NATO next time will be retaliated against. That is what I am saying. Why just make statements if you cant do it?




Totally agreed! Infact that is what i was trying to tell secur ... that this is all hogwash ..... from 1st second on everyone was in loop so one cant deny that as a fact and making statements subsequently that permission has been given to troops to retaliate is CRAP!!!!! SOP is observe and report .... and if crossing take place/they engage to reply effectively .....

Hell your troops raise a red flag when we approach the LC and we do the same as a mutual warning ... or fire a tracer air burst .... thats SOP .... and in case either side crosses there are standing instructions to engage WITHOUT reversion for permission to higher headquarters ... the dear poster says no permission came !!!! It is exasperating ..... how can one be so naive .... and a moderator joins in to call me a troll and threatens a ban .... what nonsense ... if one tries to logically reason out, you get a boot .. just coz of my flag

In another thread I took on an Indian poster about his claims which were crap .... this is PDF .... supposedly most professional site ... yet you see strange people here



Exactly a point have been trying to make. Thank you .... if I had said this .... Mr Irfan Bloch the Moderator would have labelled me a troll ... !!!! I totally agree with you. The US did this ... and by making such a statement the COAS has played into their hands ..... now the US has just said 'Pakistan is a sovereign nation and has a right to defend itself and so do we' in response to his statement. It has done nothing but to call his bluff over it ... COAS should have just shut up and not made such a statement. Now the PA will loose face next time round. And next time round will occur again.



I agree on that. But the confrontational attitude adopted by GoP and PA's Chief is not helpful as had they accepted apology and taken a hard stand, the thing would have been more effective. Now its going to drive into US that Pakistan is playing a hardball and if push comes to a shove, we both know who ends up loosing!!!

dont get over excited , Pakistan can stand its ground and take down its enemies , we have the capability to do so and the enemies know this ( including india ) had this not been the case the blood thristy enemies of Pakistan would have attacked us long time back

 

[F.O.X]

Yes, everyone knows who the master of Taliban is ... that is why everyone engages the master to drive sense into them. What you face is the effect of your own policies. Now you have adopted a policy to send into J&K people who are convicted of crime in Pakistan to fight in lieu of their jail time. You are infact criminalizing the whole issue .... and in garb of Kashmiri struggle ... similarly in Afghanistan you are fomenting trouble and receiving payment for it too ..... !!! And you wont allow peace in Afghanistan except with your own stooge in power there ...

And every knows who is the master of TTP & BLA, Right ?

We as Nations have to safeguard our national interest ,we dont care if you like it or not , to us our interests are most important , if Taliban can ensure that No indian will be able to come in afg & threat our interests that's good for us we will support them , if Karazi can ensure this we will support him which he certainly is not capable of . So yes if Taliban can safeguard our interest we would very much like to see them in power . and we will defiantly do every thing to remove Karazi from his chair . it is just as simple as that .

Even though this discussion has nothing to do with Kashmir but as always you have to change the topic . but well lets see , Kashmir is a disputed territory , and since we claim it is ours we will do every thing to get it back , we pretty much dont care if you like it or not .

Now stick to the current Topic.

 

[Abu Zolfiqar]

Regular exercises, airshow or nukes/babur test must be halt immediately to save money for economy.

zindabad bravo.

when was the last time you saw fighter aircrafts in large numbers flying formation overhead and tanks down Jinnah avenue during Defence day or Independence day parade?

ministers (hundreds of them) flying first class to countries and staying at 6 star hotels for meaningless photo-ops and meanwhile a few exercises with friendlys (all within limited defence budget) can't take place?

a lot of the exercises as of late (namely with Chinese) have been in Pakistan --which has saved the expenses of travelling and hauling combat and other essential gear


as for earlier part of your post (i agree with many things u said) --- point of all this is to show we WILL not tolerate attacks by NATO on Pakistan soil. That's why unlike before -- we've closed both supply routes and are limiting cooperation with them.

Unlike before, this is not a "unilateral" decision by the so-dubbed "deep state" (or whatever they call it)

it's a largely popular decision, taken by the ruling coalition government of Pakistan. . .


i don't think the 'alliance' will end, though it's certainly at more than just a "make or break" period......things could get real ugly or they could calm down if NATO acknowledges its f*ck up and takes steps that will satisfy Pakistani anger and disgust ---most importantly justice for the people (civilians and military) and their families who have been affected by NATOs gross negligence and callousness.

 

[notorious_eagle]

I agree on that. But the confrontational attitude adopted by GoP and PA's Chief is not helpful as had they accepted apology and taken a hard stand, the thing would have been more effective. Now its going to drive into US that Pakistan is playing a hardball and if push comes to a shove, we both know who ends up loosing!!!

Dont look too much into these statements, they are meant more for domestic consumption rather than war fighting strategy. You are forgetting one thing, General Kayani is one of the most cooled headed COAS there is. He looks at all options on the table before making a move. A great strategist and a very fine soldier. He was the one that was largely responsible for making sure that war did not break out between India and Pakistan during the 2001 stand off. He knows what the balance of power is and will never confront NATO in a full head on war. Only a fool fights a battle he knows he cant win. America is very well aware of the leverage Pakistan maintains and without Pakistan's support there can never be peace in Afghanistan. Its because of this leverage US leaders have gone through damage control phase and are trying to make contact with Pakistan on every level. This might have been a tactical defeat for Pakistan but by no means was it a strategic defeat for Pakistan as Pakistan is far from being knocked down.

 

[Abu Zolfiqar]

i can name at least 4 initiatives off the top of my head undertaken by the armed services collectively that have saved Pakistan exchequer a huge amount of valuable (limited) funds

 

[Abu Zolfiqar]

Dont look too much into these statements, they are meant more for domestic consumption rather than war fighting strategy. You are forgetting one thing, General Kayani is one of the most cooled headed COAS there is. He looks at all options on the table before making a move. A great strategist and a very fine soldier. He was the one that was largely responsible for making sure that war did not break out between India and Pakistan during the 2001 stand off. He knows what the balance of power is and will never confront NATO in a full head on war. Only a fool fights a battle he knows he cant win. America is very well aware of the leverage Pakistan maintains and without Pakistan's support there can never be peace in Afghanistan. Its because of this leverage US leaders have gone through damage control phase and are trying to make contact with Pakistan on every level. This might have been a tactical defeat for Pakistan but by no means was it a strategic defeat for Pakistan as Pakistan is far from being knocked down.

on both levels NATO has failed, in its campaign overall

especially if eradicating terrorism from the REGION was the GENUINE reason for this campaign in the first place! But don't we damn know that already.

 

[BATMAN]

i can name at least 4 initiatives off the top of my head undertaken by the armed services collectively that have saved Pakistan exchequer a huge amount of valuable (limited) funds

Please don't hesitate and say it for the ignorants.

 

[Hello_10]

Pakistan military ordered to return fire if attacked by Nato forces

Pakistan's military commanders have ordered their troops to return fire if they come under attack from Nato forces, raising the prospect of further deadly clashes along the country's border with Afghanistan.

General Ashfaq Kayani, Pakistan's army chief, gave the new order in response to the recent deaths of 24 soldiers when their border posts came under fire from Nato helicopters.

Kayani is under immense pressure from within his own ranks over the two-hour bombardment by the helicopters of an ally, to which the Pakistani air force did not respond. The incident piled further humiliation on a military still stung by the US special forces operation in May that killed Osama bin Laden deep inside Pakistan.

"I want to emphasise and leave no ambiguity in the rules of engagement for everyone down the chain of command," Kayani said in a letter to his troops.

"When under attack, you have full liberty of action to respond with all capabilities at your disposal. This will require no clearance at any level.

"I have very clearly directed that any act of aggression will be responded to with full force, regardless of the cost and consequences." (if anyone asks me, ill say that the bold part is the only thing which matters in this whole article)

The communique, issued in Urdu, will be read out by local commanders to their soldiers.

Kayani also said that the air force did not respond to the Nato attack "due to breakdown of communication with the affected posts".

The move effectively transforms the role of more than 100,000 Pakistan troops deployed along its western border from counterinsurgency to border protection duty.

The Nato attack happened on the border between the Afghan province of Kunar and the Mohmand part of Pakistan's tribal area. The border posts were 300 metres inside Pakistani territory.

Pakistan claims the attack was "unprovoked" and continued even after it alerted Nato to the fact that its post was coming under fire.

US officials have claimed a combined Afghan and US special forces squad operating close to the border came under fire from suspected militants on the Pakistani side, and that they responded by calling in air support.

But a senior Pakistani military officer said US officials supplied the wrong co-ordinates for the proposed strike, and then launched the attack "without getting clearance from the Pakistani side".

"It was an unprovoked and indiscriminate attack by US helicopters and fighter jets," he said.

He denied an account by American officials, carried in Friday's Wall Street Journal, that they had checked the location with Pakistan first and the fatal strike had been given the go-ahead.

An investigation by the US military is under way.

In retaliation for the incident, Pakistan has blocked the transit of Nato supplies through its territory, ended the US use of an airbase and is boycotting next week's high-level international meeting on Afghanistan in Bonn.

Pakistan's co-operation is considered vital to stabilising Afghanistan and pushing the Taliban into peace talks.

Pakistan military ordered to return fire if attacked by Nato forces | World news | The Guardian

---------- Post added at 03:21 PM ---------- Previous post was at 03:19 PM ----------



sure. anything else u would lik to put across?? I am carefully listening

NATO’s attack on Pakistanis troops has a straight meaning, that, they want to conduct military operations inside Pakistan and they don’t want Pakistani military to make any noise. Now, Pakistan would either demand compensations for the dead soldiers and don’t make any noise even if they keep losing few soldiers on time to time and with civilians also during drone attacks/ military operations inside Pakistan, or, Pakistani military now has to have a straight face to face with NATO forces. After OBL’s incident, it is believed by the Western media that its mainly Pakistani military who help/ control Taliban against NATO. And now NATO also say, “Pakistan has right to self-defense so does US: Pentagon”. Also, as US’s president/ foreign ministry has refused to apologize so its clear that they find their NATO troops right on the incident.

But I must appreciate Pakistani diplomats/ Pakistani military for the way they handled the issue till now. Neither they tried for any revenge and at the same time they have blocked NATO’s supply line with the order to vacate their one prime airbase being used for drone attack by NATO, with full diplomatic campaign on other international platforms. As, if they might have responded the NATO troops, NATO was certainly going to hit back with full strength, and even if they might have shown weakness to NATO, they were going to face similar incidents very frequently in future as it could give a message to NATO forces that Pakistani defense is nothing so they would do whatever they want. And till now, neither Pakistan showed any weakness nor they gave any chance to NATO to open fire on Pakistan military with full strength. NATO finds that they have no option other than to strike on those places based in Pakistan which are handling war in Afghan, and also they believe these handlers have direct support from ISI/ Pakistani military, while Pakistan believes US would just leave the region and they may fix all. Pakistan wants diplomatic solution on Afghanistan while US don’t want to talk to Taliban on the terms fixed by a victorious Taliban.

Its true that Pakistani Military has full support from its public and Pakistani political people so things are not like Libya where NATO had support from local groups and won the war in few months only. But its also true that they are going to at least make proper damage to Pakistani Military, even if they cant win there. I think, Pakistan may now first wait for any assurance from China and Russia before they would open proper fire on NATO’s air and ground defense. NATO is clear that they are willing to cross ****** border very frequently in future to attack those places from where the war in Afghan is being controlled, what they claim, or, they would attack even on Pakistani military if they will stop NATO forces from doing so. and on the other hand Pakistani General has also said recently that “Don’t mess with Nuclear Pakistan”…………….

Mr Musharraf has demanded compensation for the dead soldiers from NATO so he is one of those in Pakistan who don’t want any straight confrontation from NATO but what about other political personalities/ military bosses, will they accept it? We would wait till 11 December when things will get clearer. I think, China would be the main player if Pakistan decides to take any attempt on NATO forces.

 

[BATMAN]

Funniest post on this thread so far. LMAO.
Where did Indians come in? Now, don't bring in the Martians next.
Sort out the Issues with the Americans, that is where the probable solution lies.

Indians come to Afghanistan by free air transit from Pak airspace and in Afghanistan or via Iran.

 

[Al Bhatti]

December 3, 2011

Crucial Pakistan-US diplomacy need of the hour

It is at the operational level where the policy of the political leadership has to be implemented that there is a military and intelligence disconnect

The US/Nato fighter plane and helicopter attacks on Pakistani border posts on November 26 resulting in 24 Pakistan Army soldiers being killed and others wounded has been the most serious of repeated violations of Pakistan's sovereignty and territorial integrity.

Resulting national anger led to the Government's decisions to: block Nato supply routes to Afghanistan; ordering the closure of Shamsi airbase used for CIA drone strikes; boycotting the Bonn Conference on Afghanistan; review all existing political, military and intelligence cooperation with America, Nato and by extension with Afghanistan. That country has become a launching pad for intervention by American and Nato forces, India and by Pakistani Taliban given sanctuary in training camps.

What are the implications of this development and how it should be addressed? Since the mid-1950s, America, despite ups and downs in the relationship, has provided significant political support, economic and military assistance to Pakistan. However, America has to figure out why it is so unpopular. Not that this is different than elsewhere in the Muslim world due to American support for Israel's occupation of Palestine.

Pakistanis believe that they are used, when in America's interest as during the Afghan jihad against Soviet occupation, and discarded when no longer needed. The American-Nato invasion and occupation of Afghanistan increased public hostility and rising extremism and terrorism resulting in 50,000 military and civilian fatalities. Making India a new American strategic partner accentuated by the US-India nuclear deal and ignoring the need to resolve the Kashmir dispute accentuated this trend. While it's being projected that the transit blockage, and Pakistan's absence at the Bonn Conference, is not serious, the reality is different. The percentage of supplies including fuel transiting Pakistan vary between 43 per cent to 50 per cent. If the air bridge was also closed, which will be done if there is any repeat of such an attack, the situation for American/Nato/Isaf forces in an Afghanistan they are retreating from will be far more serious. The Istanbul/Bonn process leading to the Nato summit is an attempt by the West to exit Afghanistan, while maintaining a key footprint. Without Pakistan's active involvement the future of Afghanistan remains bleak. It would be wise if the Karzai government which blows hot and cold on Pakistan, keeps this in mind.

Stability implications

No doubt strained relations with America will have costs for Pakistan. On the economic side its planners have assessed that it will be bearable although more effective mechanisms for raising finances will have to be deployed. On the military side, such curtailment will significantly affect operations along the Afghan border, which would not be in America's interests either.

If Pakistan were destabilised the international implications would be profound. It is wrongly held that Pakistan is a hot bed of terrorism and extremism. In fact these forces, such as that of Al Qaida, whose ideological wellsprings, its financing, and main planners are based in, or come from other Muslim countries and societies, where their hosts find it safer to divert such forces to Pakistan. If Pakistan faltered, the forces of extremism would exponentially expand not only in neighbouring India with its 150 million Muslim population, in the other Muslim countries where despite the Arab Spring the situation remains volatile but also in the large diaspora of some 40 million Muslims in the West. Both Pakistan and America have shared objectives, which include fostering democracy, good governance, countering terrorism and extremism, educational, social and economic development leading to prosperity. It is at the operational level where the policy of the political leadership has to be implemented that in both countries there is a certain disconnect at the military and intelligence levels. This latest attack, coming hours after Coalition Commander General John R. Allen met Pakistan Army Chief Ashfaq Kiyani demonstrates this disconnect.

Was Nato not aware of the implications of the first attack followed shortly afterwards by the second attack? Pakistan's perception is that they were deliberate to make a point. America never attempted such an action from Iraq against a hostile Iran, but takes Pakistan for granted.

To address this situation, both sides should lower the rhetoric, only possible after an early public apology is extended. Subsequent diplomatic negotiations require a readiness to seriously consider probable Pakistani demands.

First of all, ironclad guarantees against any further such attacks on Pakistani soil. Secondly, Pakistan's legitimate interests in a neutral Afghanistan must be recognised. Thirdly, winding down the drone strikes as the collateral public perception damage outweighs counter terrorism gains. Fourthly renegotiation of Nato/Isaf transit factoring in infrastructural costs. Labelling the relationship as transactional where Pakistan's self-respect and the lives of its soldiers and civilians are of less value than their western counterparts will be a grave mistake for America to make.

Ambassador Tariq Osman Hyder is a retired Pakistani diplomat.

http://gulfnews.com/opinions/columnists/crucial-pakistan-us-diplomacy-need-of-the-hour-1.942192

 

[Mercenary]

Its best for both NATO and Pakistan to resolve this peaceful.

The only people who gain from this are Taliban and Al Qaeda Terrorists.

 

[Al Bhatti]

Depends on where you are stationed.

If you are guarding a sensitive site like a Nuclear Storage Site, then absolutely, they have a right to realiate.

But on the border, that could trigger a major policy crisis, so its best for top commanders to give orders to retaliate rather than a solider going gung-ho.

And I ask again, how much trouble is it for a soldier on the border to radio HQ to ask for orders?

And the top comanders of NATO/USA

1) wanted to triger a major policy crisis intentionally

or

2) they were so incompetent and dumb that they gave such orders by mistake.

 

[Mercenary]

And the top comanders of NATO/USA

1) wanted to triger a major policy crisis intentionally

or

2) they were so incompetent and dumb that they gave such orders by mistake.

Neither.

US and NATO are not stupid to deliberately kill 24 Pakistani Soldiers. They need Pakistan to be a solid partner as they withdraw from Afghanistan. So it was a mistake.

Now that mistake has to be investigated.