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American attack aftermath: Pakistan declares attack a 'plot'

This act by NATO (read Americans) is a clear act of aggression and must be condemned. What good an investigation will do? It will only highlight the exact circumstances of this act of terror. So, if NATO is proven to be on the wrong side - what do we Pakistani people expect from them?

An apology? compensation? This is another example where neither our military nor the civilian govt has a policy. Irrespective of the findings I don't Pakistan to fight this war anymore.

Must I remind everyone that this is not the first time such a thing has happened. Each passing day our tribals are being killed by drone attacks .. ofcourse naysayers will come out to say that these people are terrorists / militants .. but reality is that no one knows.. brutal aggression must stop...

Imagine this - what would stop the same Americans / NATO etc .. to attack other parts of Pakistan .. including Karachi / LHR / ISB .. if they want .. so we must stop being slaves and lackeys to Americans ..

Enough is enough.
 
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America's Lost War
Killing Pakistani Soldiers
by BRIAN CLOUGHLEY
The killing of 24 Pakistan army soldiers in Mohmand Tribal Agency on November 26 by US air strikes is unforgivable. I was in Mohmand three weeks ago, visiting 77 Brigade, whose officers and soldiers were slaughtered by US aircraft, and I know exactly where Pakistan’s border posts are located. And so do American forces, because they have been informed of the precise coordinates of all them.

There can be no refutation of the statement to me that “No plans of any patrols or operations being conducted [at the time of the Mohmand airstrikes] were shared [with Pakistan, by US forces].” And nobody can deny that the posts are well inside Pakistan.

Those killed in the US attack on Pakistan included Captain Usman, whose six-month-old daughter will never see him again, and Major Mujahid who was to be married shortly. Well done, you gallant warriors of the skies. May you never sleep contented.

Here is a description of what went on, from a retired army officer who visited the casualties in the Military Hospital in Peshawar:

There were 14 wounded in the surgical ward suffering a variety of wounds . . . The crux of the account of the soldiers and officers was that at about 11pm . . . a light aircraft came from across the border, flew over the post and fired flares and returned. About half an hour later armed helicopters and [other] aircraft came. They again fired flares and began firing at the men. They remained in the area for about 5-6 hours. During this time, the helicopters [were] firing at individual personnel at will . . . [and fire was returned by their single 12.7 machine gun]. Every one of the men on the post was killed or wounded. They seemed to be in no hurry and going after each individual separately. Having finished the entire post, they peaceably went back without any casualty on their part.

The US assault is unpardonable. It was one of the only too frequent Cowboy Yippee Shoots, as we used to call them in Vietnam when I served there in the Australian army. Some things don’t change.

And on the subject of flying — it is ironical that my flight from Islamabad to Paris in early November was delayed because there was so much conflicting air traffic through Afghan airspace. The West’s war in Afghanistan, which is hideously costly in lives of foreign soldiers and Afghans (not that Afghan lives matter much to the so-called ‘coalition’ forces), and fantastically lucrative for corrupt Afghan politicians and officials – and lots of western commercial enterprises – involves staggering amounts of air movement. Much of it is by combat jet and helo jockeys, as well as countless drones, maneuvered by amoral, intellectually depraved video-game players in dinky little hi-tech parlors, blasting away with rockets, bombs and bullets at little figures on their screens.

The news keeps coming of errant air strikes, like the one in Kandahar on November 24 that killed six Afghan children, who were yet more victims of the West’s precision technology. And “NATO helicopters on Monday [November 28] fired four rockets into houses in Zhari district of Kandahar, killing three women and injuring two men, said Zalmai Ayoubi, the provincial governor’s spokesman.” Concurrently the website icasualties.org showed the names of three more young foreign soldiers killed in this cruel shambles. The British army’s Rifleman Sheldon Steel was 20, as was US Private Jackie Diener, whose countryman Corporal Zacharie Reiff was 22 when the three of them they gave their lives for — what? There were 25 foreign soldiers killed in Afghanistan in November, but there is little in the war-supporting mainstream western media about this death toll. And there is nothing about the concurrent maiming, physically and mentally, of countless young men who will never again know normality in their entire lifetimes — unlike the slavering ghouls in politics who piously intone their mantra that “we must support our troops,” in order to justify their war. What rancid humbugs. Have any of them had a son or husband die in hideous agony or suffer appalling mutilation in any of the wars they so noisily support?

The website about casualties does not of course record the names of any of the Pakistan army soldiers who were killed in Mohmand by the US air strikes in the small hours of last Saturday. The US commander of foreign forces in Afghanistan, General John R Allen, said he had offered his condolences to the family of “any” Pakistani soldiers who “may have been killed or injured,” which expression of halfhearted disquiet will undoubtedly go a long way to infuriate even more citizens of Pakistan. (Where do they get people like Allen? Are they programmed to say moronic things like this?)

It is not too much to say that the author of Cables from Kabul, Sherard Cowper-Coles, the brilliant British diplomat who was ambassador in that besieged capital for three action-packed years, feels that the Afghan War is fruitless. He writes that “it is unarguable that the West got into Afghanistan in October 2001 without a clear idea either of what it was getting into or of how it was going to get out.” Cowper-Coles (we’ll call him C-C) brought extensive experience and skill to Afghanistan, and it isn’t too much to suggest that if his notions and prescriptions had been accepted the place wouldn’t be in the terminal shambles that now exists. He obviously empathized with the Afghan people, and one can imagine him, translated to a century ago, being a benign interlocutor with Emir Nasrullah Khan and arguing persuasively about the Treaty of Gandamak.

But C-C’s modern arguments were of a different sort. His intercession concerning the slaughter of ninety Afghan villagers by a US Specter gunship – a truly hellish death-machine – was instrumental in extracting the final admission by the then US commander of foreign forces in Afghanistan, General McKiernan, that his troops – his army – his country – had lied. McKiernan acknowledged, after “the Americans were at first in denial”, that a US strike had killed the civilians — a “big gesture by a big man” writes C-C. And perhaps it was. But of course big gestures don’t bring back dead children to their mothers, be that in Afghanistan or the US or Pakistan or Britain or anywhere else. And the lies continue, with the Washington Post and the New York Times doing their best to spread the word, from un-named “Afghan security officials” that the slaughter of the Pakistan army soldiers on November 26 was their own fault. Here’s the Post:

After the coalition unit came under fire from the Pakistani side of the border, the troops responded by calling in an airstrike, which resulted in the Pakistani casualties, the officials said. “They did come under fire from across the border first, before reacting,” said a senior Afghan official, who spoke on condition of anonymity to discuss the sensitive issue . . .

One senior Afghan police official said that after an initial gunbattle, the insurgents retreated into a Pakistani post and began firing from there. “They started firing at the commandos, and they continued firing so the air support had to come to their defense,” the official said.

One wonders how C-C would have reacted to this, in his official position (probably with civilized disdain), but in 2009 he had to pay attention to the bigger picture, and when he was offered the opportunity to become his foreign minister’s Special Representative to Afghanistan, standing down from being ambassador, he accepted the poison chalice because he thought “it was a real chance to help the Obama Administration deliver the political strategy capable of bringing sustainable success.” In this he was vastly over-optimistic, even being warned by the late Richard Holbrooke that “not everyone” in the US administration saw things as did the British. C-C “pointed to the need for a process of national reconciliation to complement the military campaign” but although there may have been lip-service to that estimable objective, there was no evidence of serious application. Nor is there now, two years later.

In early November Major General Peter Fuller, the US deputy commander of Nato’s training mission in Afghanistan, was sacked for saying publicly that President Karzai was “isolated from reality” and that Afghans “don’t understand the sacrifices that America is making to provide for their security.” He had to be fired, of course, for making a fool of himself (where do they get them from?), but it is apparent that his sentiments are widely supported by the Pentagon’s decision-makers who blame everyone but themselves for the fact that their war is going catastrophically in what they insultingly call “AfPak.”

The “sacrifices that America is making” in Afghanistan, in what is ludicrously called ‘Operation Enduring Freedom’, are entirely self-inflicted. But Pakistan’s sacrifices are inflicted by America, which is losing yet another war and again blames another country for its failure. Just like it did in the disasters in Vietnam and Somalia and Iraq.

In the past fifty years, what nation has trusted America and come out of the deal with dignity, honor and prosperity? Pakistan is far from a perfect country. Its government is corrupt and appallingly inefficient. But it could do without Washington’s imperial insolence. At the moment Islamabad is desperate to find some means of registering the country’s contempt and loathing for the United States, and there are very few options available to it. But it could reflect on what Washington’s retaliation would have been if Pakistani aircraft had gone on a yippee shoot and killed 24 American soldiers inside Afghanistan.

http://www.counterpunch.org/2011/12/02/killing-pakistani-soldiers/
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I dont know If somebody already posted this article but I find it interesting according to wounded soldiers they kept attacking for 5 to 6 hours...wth is going on?:undecided:
 
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Neither.

US and NATO are not stupid to deliberately kill 24 Pakistani Soldiers. They need Pakistan to be a solid partner as they withdraw from Afghanistan. So it was a mistake.

Now that mistake has to be investigated.

US has made mistakes likes these 3 times in past , and guess what they were investigated too , but No Results , no punishment . There is a reason why Pakistan has decided not to Take part & trust US investigation.

Mistake or not it was US/NATO' fault , They should have been professional enough to know what the hell they were going to strike .

First you people Mess up & then claim it was a mistake , Very Good strategy by US .
 
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Oh just go ahead and accuse others of being troll when even the basic considerations of strategic impact are beyond the capabilities of your faculties ....

by being a moderator ... its incumbent upon you to be objective in your approach ... if you want to ban someone do so by all means ..... why harp on it?

indeed that is the whole point to teach sense into people and discourage others to make an account just for the sake of trolling.

Repeating the same thing over and over again is the sign of being ANAL and doesn’t suggest that the poster has the strategic insight which we, the normal mere mortals lack as you put it.

But like I said earlier, the thread is not about us individuals but the incident that went wrong from the start from both sides.

e.g. Pakistani check posts not having anything to defend themselves when NATO has had a history of doing what it did on that day.
NATO with its ever changing storyline as the day goes by
The PAF with its lame excuse of not making an appearance on the scene for the reasons known to it or the NATO CAP flying across the border.

What you are saying about Russia is what I have said already few other places its payback time and it suits them very well you only mentioned America I include Pakistan too because if we had not taken the stand despite facing the terrorism of that time in the shape of “hammer group” and the Khad agents that were involved in the bombings and the assassinations then the Mujahideen (now Taliban terrorists) would have been history.

The story is not very simple, you mourn us being the neighbour of Afghanistan now and the all countries around Afghanistan mourn them for being the neighbour for centuries but that totally another discussion.

You are still being very simplistic in your analytical skills you have employed to debate “the strategic impact”. I wish it was that easy and Afghanistan problems were solved years ago but this lack of understanding is in the minds of the current occupiers of Afghanistan Not me or my fellow Pakistani posters.

Its called arrogance, when they decided to sideline the biggest ethnic group I.e Pashtons and decided that every Pashton was a Taliban and needed to be treated the same way as Taliban despite what Pakistan kept saying from the first day. and gave Taliban the chance use this discrimination to their advantage. The Northern alliance played its part in that too And Americans decided to partner themselves with the Northern alliance and the criteria for northern alliance being good was that Taliban were bad and northern alliance were their enemy so enemy of my enemy being my friend and if that new partner/ friend has same or worse record like Taliban in shaping the current Afghanistan then so be it.


By the way I took the liberty of editing your message where you are being personal and judgemental and playing victim at the same time, also I like your opening sentence where you are celebrating your insight and chiding me for the lack of vision in one sentence, now that’s golden.


... the dear poster says no permission came !!!! It is exasperating ..... how can one be so naive .... and a moderator joins in to call me a troll and threatens a ban .... what nonsense ... if one tries to logically reason out, you get a boot .. just coz of my flag


No one is going to ban you for your argument be at ease , not me unless there is some serious forum rules breach. and that has nothing to do with the Flag.


Correct me if I am wrong but it looks like you are confusig two things here. Permission for what, to whom and from who?

Permission from Kynai to PA soldiers to retaliate without seeking orders in case of repeat event?
Or permission from Pakistanis command to NATO to engage the two posts?
First one is for media consumption from the same media that is asking our DGMO that why 155mm field guns were not used to the destroy the NATO helicopters. Indeed the SOPs are always in place, I have stayed at Jammu sector at some places both armies are so close to each other that they can year each other and shout out to each other as a warning no one deploys an MKI or Babur missile on every single occasion. So no matter what, the same SOPs will be followed and communications channels will remain open and that’s what has averted an artillery fire between the two after few days, although that didn’t get much attention.

If you are talking about the permission from Pakistanis to NATO to engage and destroy not one but both posts then please forgive me to disagree, that story is rejected by Pakistan army. Granted NATO is all high and mighty but we didn’t tell them to wipe out our own posts. There is foul play involved and some malicious intent at play so hold tight and see how the story develops don’t pass judgements yet.
 
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In era of GPS and GPRS its impossible that NATO did not know the position of Our Post. I think govt should give orders to shoot down hostile heli's if they cross limits. Shoot down 1 or two heli's they will behave. but with this Passive approch only result of hue and cry will be an apology over loss of Life by NATO and case close

MY GPS can guide me accurately to my parking spot..so I doubt the military does not have features at-least twice better than ordinary consumer GPS..this is not a case of negligence but pure intention. We definitely need to retaliate..sending 200-300 body bags back to US sounds like a good recipe here!
 
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sending an apache or a drone in cardboard boxes will better.
 
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Neither.

US and NATO are not stupid to deliberately kill 24 Pakistani Soldiers. They need Pakistan to be a solid partner as they withdraw from Afghanistan. So it was a mistake.

Now that mistake has to be investigated.

What if we also make a mistake and at least the same number (24) get killed on NATO/USA side? We will also be able to investigate. Right?

Also, the soldier/pilot found guilty of the mistake will be very much happy to face trial. Does that sound a fair deal?
 
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MY GPS can guide me accurately to my parking spot..so I doubt the military does not have features at-least twice better than ordinary consumer GPS..this is not a case of negligence but pure intention. We definitely need to retaliate..sending 200-300 body bags back to US sounds like a good recipe here!

sending an apache or a drone in cardboard boxes will better.

Respected members,

Please,

why do you really have to invite trolls by making such wishful posts? We all know where we stand.

Back in the days during the 80s we were able to stand the Soviets and shoot their planes because we had an active and ample backing of the Western and Muslim block. There is nothing of that sort at the moment and we are on our own.

Hopefully such day never comes when there are more casualties between the NATO and Pakistan because they were supposed to have Taliban as common enemy not become enemies of each other . You need to understand that there are elections coming in America and no one will like to appear a failure and weak .so pray for peace not war.

There is no need for any special order from COAS (that’s just for media consumption just like asking US to vacate Shamsi base for nth time). If the soldiers come under sustained and deliberate fire they will retaliate anyway and hopefully with better air defence equipment but lets not pray for such event because as the things are 99% chances are that we will come worse off whether we like it or not.
 
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Respected members,

Please,

Really why do you really have to invite trolls by making such wishful posts? We all know where we stand.

Back in the days during the 80s we were able to stand the Soviets and shoot their planes because we had an active and ample backing of the Western and Muslim block. There is nothing of that sort at the moment and we are on our own.

Hopefully such day never comes when there are more casualties between the NATO and Pakistan because they were supposed to have Taliban as common enemy not become enemies of each other . You need to understand that there are elections coming in America and no one will like to appear a failure and weak .so pray for peace not war.

There is no need for any special order from COAS (that’s just for media consumption just like asking US to vacate Shamsi base for nth time). If the soldiers come under sustained and deliberate fire they will retaliate anyway and hopefully with better air defence equipment but lets not pray for such event because as the things are 99% chances are that we will come worse off whether we like it or not.

give us the name of any other country in the world who will remain silent after such attack.
and it will be foolish to assume that they wont do it again.....because they will.

---------- Post added at 03:04 PM ---------- Previous post was at 03:01 PM ----------

and you.are forgetting that no matter how advanced their war machines are....the fuel to fly them goes through pakistan....so its not that pakistan is helpless.....pakistan may not have the weapons to shoot them down...but with little courage can ground them by stopping fuel supply.
 
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