Altay & Turkish Main Battle Tank Programs

[Borg]

I think the biggest Problem with the Altay Tank regarding the Engine and transmission can be solved, if they go to the Koreans and use the Engine for the K2 Black Panther, afterall there are many similarities with the Altay and the K2, as I have heard the south Korean companies behind the K2, helped in some aspects with the Altay. The First batch of the South Korean K2 Black Panthers used MTU MT-883 ka501 and used
RENK HSWL 295 TM transmission, this batch(100 tank) was produced between 2014-2015, but then South Korea produced its own engine Doosan DV27K for the second batch of tanks(106), which they started producing in 2019. They are now in phase three in which they intent to produce them with a fully indigenous powerpack, replacing the RENK transmission with a S&T Dynamics EST15K, this batch(about 54 tanks so far ordered) they intend to produce from mid 2020 going forward I believe.

This option for Turkey seems to be the best option, and the one with the least restrictions, if turkey orders a huge back of engines, many the south koreans will be willing to allow for a transfer of tech to help develop Turkey's own indigenous engine. Its really the only option outside of getting an engine in the EU, which will come with restrictions. The other option is a Ukrainian engine, which we dont know the quality of as Ukraine has not produced a tank of Altay's caliber and has not developed a new engine for a while, so their capabilities in this area are unknown..

edit: some more specs for the engine and transmission for the K2:

Engine:
Batch 1: MTU MT-883 Ka-501 4-cycle, 12-cylinder water-cooled diesel
Batch 2, 3: Doosan DV27K 4-cycle, 12-cylinder water-cooled diesel
1,500 hp (1,100 kW)

Transmission:
Batch 1, 2: RENK HSWL 295 TM (five forward, three reverse)
Batch 3: S&T Dynamics EST15K (six forward, three reverse, in development(expected mid 2020))

Koreans aren't using own egines yet as they have massive issues with both but especialy with transmissions so the only alternative is to wait till own engines are ready! It's painfull but it's worth to wait for it.

 

[Georg]

I think the biggest Problem with the Altay Tank regarding the Engine and transmission can be solved, if they go to the Koreans and use the Engine for the K2 Black Panther, afterall there are many similarities with the Altay and the K2, as I have heard the south Korean companies behind the K2, helped in some aspects with the Altay. The First batch of the South Korean K2 Black Panthers used MTU MT-883 ka501 and used
RENK HSWL 295 TM transmission, this batch(100 tank) was produced between 2014-2015, but then South Korea produced its own engine Doosan DV27K for the second batch of tanks(106), which they started producing in 2019. They are now in phase three in which they intent to produce them with a fully indigenous powerpack, replacing the RENK transmission with a S&T Dynamics EST15K, this batch(about 54 tanks so far ordered) they intend to produce from mid 2020 going forward I believe.

This option for Turkey seems to be the best option, and the one with the least restrictions, if turkey orders a huge back of engines, many the south koreans will be willing to allow for a transfer of tech to help develop Turkey's own indigenous engine. Its really the only option outside of getting an engine in the EU, which will come with restrictions. The other option is a Ukrainian engine, which we dont know the quality of as Ukraine has not produced a tank of Altay's caliber and has not developed a new engine for a while, so their capabilities in this area are unknown..

edit: some more specs for the engine and transmission for the K2:

Engine:
Batch 1: MTU MT-883 Ka-501 4-cycle, 12-cylinder water-cooled diesel
Batch 2, 3: Doosan DV27K 4-cycle, 12-cylinder water-cooled diesel
1,500 hp (1,100 kW)

Transmission:
Batch 1, 2: RENK HSWL 295 TM (five forward, three reverse)
Batch 3: S&T Dynamics EST15K (six forward, three reverse, in development(expected mid 2020))

Kora has tonns of trouble with their own engines and transmissions... the reason why this is no option...

initaly they wanted the K2 equipped with domestic build engine and transmission, because of huge ongoing reliability and perfromance problems they choose MTU and Renk to get the K2 into production..

Patch1 MTU engine Renk transmission 2014 (just to get the K2 into production)

Patch2 Dossan engine (relibilty issus were sorted out not! they just lowered the minimum reliability requirment) with Renk transmission (the S&T Dynamic transmission still fail to achive minimum requirment) 2019-2020

Patch 3 Dossan engine and S&T Dynamic transmission (MAYBEE if reliability issus with the transmission get sorted out)

even high tech south Korea realized that building a reliable and powerfull tank engine transmission powerpack is not easy and quickly done...they work on their engine powerpack since 2010 now we have 2020 and maybee they get into service. Still it would be a unprooven powerpack with most likely tonns of problems

 

[hyperman]

Koreans aren't using own egines yet as they have massive issues with both but especialy with transmissions so the only alternative is to wait till own engines are ready! It's painfull but it's worth to wait for it.

I was under the impression that the Koreans had fixed their engine problems, that problem was back in 2012, since then they have managed to fix the engine problem, and are producing Batch 2 of the Tanks, with the indigenous Doosan DV27K Engine coupled with the RENK transmission, in fact they are all on track and set to finish deliveries of 100 Batch 2 tanks by late 2020 to early 2021, after which they will attempt to make Batch 3(54 planned) which will have both the Doosan DV27K which the Batch 2 has, plus the RENK HSWL 295 TM transmission being replaced by the indigenous S&T Dynamics EST15K transmission.

If the Germans flat out, refuse to export the engines(as it currently looks like they are), this may end up being the only alternative for Turkey, if it intends to produce the Tanks in any great batch, Im not familiar with when the Turkish engine and transmission will be ready, or if there will be further delays with engine development..

https://www.janes.com/article/88891/hyundai-rotem-restarts-k2-tank-production

https://www.janes.com/article/92018/adex-2019-hyundai-rotem-positions-for-future-tank-opportunities

Kora has tonns of trouble with their own engines and transmissions... the reason why this is no option...

initaly they wanted the K2 equipped with domestic build engine and transmission, because of huge ongoing reliability and perfromance problems they choose MTU and Renk to get the K2 into production..

Patch1 MTU engine Renk transmission 2014 (just to get the K2 into production)

Patch2 Dossan engine (relibilty issus were sorted out not! they just lowered the minimum reliability requirment) with Renk transmission (the S&T Dynamic transmission still fail to achive minimum requirment) 2019-2020

Patch 3 Dossan engine and S&T Dynamic transmission (MAYBEE if reliability issus with the transmission get sorted out)

even high tech south Korea realized that building a reliable and powerfull tank engine transmission powerpack is not easy and quickly done...they work on their engine powerpack since 2010 now we have 2020 and maybee they get into service. Still it would be a unprooven powerpack with most likely tonns of problems

So it would seem that Turkey is out of Options on this front, Its very unlikely the germany would seem cooperative in supplying the engine, particularly when tensions are the way they are, over the intervention in syria, and its very unlikely they will do anything further with the way things are deteriorating surrounding the cyprus dispute and the worsening of relations with greece, they will take the Greek side which a fellow EU member in any disputes.. And its unlikely the US/France/UK serve as any better alternative. The only ones that have technology of this sort other than them are the Japanese, but there are strict self imposed export restrictions on Japan due to its constitution, and they wouldn't allow export of their tech to 3rd party countries, so Turkey wouldn't be able to sell its tank to Pakistan or Qatar and Azerbaijan or others.. so the only option I see is either wait for the Turkish engine and transmission, and then maybe you have a tank like the late 2020s(idk how far along the development it) but by then some of the tech on that tank may be a bit older, or possibly get the tech from the Korean, who despite having difficulties, seem further along in the engine and transmission development than the Turks currently..

 

[Georg]

I was under the impression that the Koreans had fixed their engine problems, that problem was back in 2012, since then they have managed to fix the engine problem, and are producing Batch 2 of the Tanks, with the indigenous Doosan DV27K Engine coupled with the RENK transmission, in fact they are all on track and set to finish deliveries of 100 Batch 2 tanks by late 2020 to early 2021, after which they will attempt to make Batch 3(54 planned) which will have both the Doosan DV27K which the Batch 2 has, plus the RENK HSWL 295 TM transmission being replaced by the indigenous S&T Dynamics EST15K transmission.

If the Germans flat out, refuse to export the engines(as it currently looks like they are), this may end up being the only alternative for Turkey, if it intends to produce the Tanks in any great batch, Im not familiar with when the Turkish engine and transmission will be ready, or if there will be further delays with engine development..

https://www.janes.com/article/88891/hyundai-rotem-restarts-k2-tank-production

https://www.janes.com/article/92018/adex-2019-hyundai-rotem-positions-for-future-tank-opportunities



So it would seem that Turkey is out of Options on this front, Its very unlikely the germany would seem cooperative in supplying the engine, particularly when tensions are the way they are, over the intervention in syria, and its very unlikely they will do anything further with the way things are deteriorating surrounding the cyprus dispute and the worsening of relations with greece, they will take the Greek side which a fellow EU member in any disputes.. And its unlikely the US/France/UK serve as any better alternative. The only ones that have technology of this sort other than them are the Japanese, but there are strict self imposed export restrictions on Japan due to its constitution, and they wouldn't allow export of their tech to 3rd party countries, so Turkey wouldn't be able to sell its tank to Pakistan or Qatar and Azerbaijan or others.. so the only option I see is either wait for the Turkish engine and transmission, and then maybe you have a tank like the late 2020s(idk how far along the development it) but by then some of the tech on that tank may be a bit older, or possibly get the tech from the Korean, who despite having difficulties, seem further along in the engine and transmission development than the Turks currently..

Turkeys problem is... you cant develop a 1500hp tank engine and transmission from scratch in one year, specially if you completely lack in knowlege in design something like that (see south Korea struggle to get this happen since 10 years) . They already failed with the joint venture with Austria.

There are not many 1500hp diesel engine/ transmission combinations avaible on the world market...

1500hp engines for tanks

MTU (several options)
Wärtsilä (V8X-1500 Leclerc engine former frensh SCAM)
Mitsubishi 10ZG10
Dossan (reliabilty problems)
ChTZ (T-14 Armata engine overcomplicated unreliable X engine layout)

tank transmission able to handel 1500hp in 50to+ tanks
Renk
Mitsubishi
S&T Dynamics (so far failed to deliver reliable transmission for production)
ChTZ (overcomplicated 12 speed transmission to overcome low torque of their own 1500hp engine)

engine from the M1 is also no option... gass guzzler and extrem heat signature no one realy wants in a tank... and would need a complete redesign of the rear because the gas turbine needs more air and larger air filter system

 

[Yatağanlı]

Is it really impossible to get the engines and transmissions from Germany for the first batch?

 

[cabatli_53]

Turkeys problem is... you cant develop a 1500hp tank engine and transmission from scratch in one year, specially if you completely lack in knowlege in design something like that (see south Korea struggle to get this happen since 10 years) . They already failed with the joint venture with Austria.

There are not many 1500hp diesel engine/ transmission combinations avaible on the world market...

1500hp engines for tanks

MTU (several options)
Wärtsilä (V8X-1500 Leclerc engine former frensh SCAM)
Mitsubishi 10ZG10
Dossan (reliabilty problems)
ChTZ (T-14 Armata engine overcomplicated unreliable X engine layout)

tank transmission able to handel 1500hp in 50to+ tanks
Renk
Mitsubishi
S&T Dynamics (so far failed to deliver reliable transmission for production)
ChTZ (overcomplicated 12 speed transmission to overcome low torque of their own 1500hp engine)

engine from the M1 is also no option... gass guzzler and extrem heat signature no one realy wants in a tank... and would need a complete redesign of the rear because the gas turbine needs more air and larger air filter system

I believe Turkey is taking the paths in clever way. I hope everything will be OK If we don't meet a surprise. The institute charged to develop powerpack family is transfering many qualified engineers from abroad while collecting the best engineers working in Turkey. They are collaborating with an X institute as well. All those are to not meet a road accident like Koreans did by charging Doosan with a very limited budget while expecting to have a state of art tank propulsion unit. At the end of the day, They have faced with reality in difficult way so No need to discover the technology again. I think Our guys will use reliable and proven technics to reveal national powerpack at 1000hp and 1500hp class. Our biggest problem is time !

 

[Nutuk]

What about the AVDS engine, several years ago there was Hema industries that proposed to build the Turkish tank engine, what happened to Hema industries?

AVDS 1500hp engine
https://www2.l3t.com/cps/products/1500_hp.htm

 

[Georg]

What about the AVDS engine, several years ago there was Hema industries that proposed to build the Turkish tank engine, what happened to Hema industries?

AVDS 1500hp engine
https://www2.l3t.com/cps/products/1500_hp.htm

next engine no one use... Israel used the AVDS 1790 1200hp in the Merkava Mk III and switched to MTU 883 1500hp in the Merkava IV

 

[hyperman]

I think Our guys will use reliable and proven technics to reveal national powerpack at 1000hp and 1500hp class. Our biggest problem is time !

Is this the Tumosan engine? I have over the years heard many different Turkish companies trying to develop engines for the Altay. Im not too familiar with Turkish companies, I had heard Tumosan had a deal with an Austrian company, but it was cancelled, and then I heard BMC was developing an engine, and also Tusas Engine Industries was developing an engine, could you provide more clarification on the engines being developed for this tank and similar armored/fighting vehicles?

 

[cabatli_53]

German MTU-881 KA 500 diesel engine will be replaced with UTKU powerpack (920-1000hp, 2700Nm) in Firtina howitzers. Same engine will be integrated on Turkish next generation IFV program as well.

• 8 cylinder
• V type case Turbo-diesel
• Water cooling mechanism
• Transverse implantation and T connection type
• Driving, Steering and Braking functions on transmission

BATU powerpack (Altay MBT Power group)

• V type, 12 Cylinder turbo-diesel
• Min. 1100kw (min 1500hp)
• Min. 4600 Nm tork
• Transverse implantation and U type connection
• Driving, Steering and Braking functions on transmission

If our politicians didn't make some mistakes in tender process, Altay project would have already became a reality today but At least, We should look forward. After institute completed development of BATU-V12 powerpack, The IP rights of engine will be delivered to SSB. When those engines are succesfully developed, Turkey will totally cut the breath of Germany at export markets. It will be no need to stand the ego of German parliaments anymore !

 

[hyperman]

will be replaced with UTKU powerpack (920-1000hp, 2700Nm) in Firtina howitzers.

When is this expected for new vehicles based on the powerpack and transmission(im assuming thats indigenous as well) to enter production?

BATU powerpack (Altay MBT Power group)

when do you think this will be implemented on the Altay? and which company is making both these engines? Is it Tumosan?

edit: from what I am reading in this article,

>Under the program BMC Power will design, develop, test, qualify and deliver a power pack which will consist of a 675kW (905hp), V8 type 18-litter diesel engine coupled with an automatic transmission under a 68-month schedule. The contract become effective on January 4, 2018 and ‘To’ started. According to BMC officials, 200 engineers including 70 foreign ones are working on the power pack.

https://www.defenceturkey.com/en/co...oduction-of-altay-mbt-and-its-power-pack-3130

that sounds like 6 years to deliver the powerpack, assuming no delays. for the BATU, is it on the same timeline? If so altay would be getting produced in the later half of the 2020s..

 

[neosinan]

Turkeys problem is... you cant develop a 1500hp tank engine and transmission from scratch in one year, specially if you completely lack in knowlege in design something like that (see south Korea struggle to get this happen since 10 years) . They already failed with the joint venture with Austria.

There are not many 1500hp diesel engine/ transmission combinations avaible on the world market...

1500hp engines for tanks

MTU (several options)
Wärtsilä (V8X-1500 Leclerc engine former frensh SCAM)
Mitsubishi 10ZG10
Dossan (reliabilty problems)
ChTZ (T-14 Armata engine overcomplicated unreliable X engine layout)

tank transmission able to handel 1500hp in 50to+ tanks
Renk
Mitsubishi
S&T Dynamics (so far failed to deliver reliable transmission for production)
ChTZ (overcomplicated 12 speed transmission to overcome low torque of their own 1500hp engine)

engine from the M1 is also no option... gass guzzler and extrem heat signature no one realy wants in a tank... and would need a complete redesign of the rear because the gas turbine needs more air and larger air filter system

I have to point out that you can very well design an 1500 hp engine in a year. But Such engine wouldn't be reliable for MBT.

What helped China and especially Shenzhen, with their technological leap forward they achieve in this past decade was rapid prototyping (among others). This is also true for SpaceX as well. İn Average you can built a prototype in 6-9 months in USA, 3 months in China, 3 weeks in Shenzhen for most electronic gadgets.

BMC or any other company can design a reliable engine within a few years, if they act like like start up and take decisions quickly if you don't mind some emission standards. That would add a couple more years.

 

[Georg]

I have to point out that you can very well design an 1500 hp engine in a year. But Such engine wouldn't be reliable for MBT.

What helped China and especially Shenzhen, with their technological leap forward they achieve in this past decade was rapid prototyping (among others). This is also true for SpaceX as well. İn Average you can built a prototype in 6-9 months in USA, 3 months in China, 3 weeks in Shenzhen for most electronic gadgets.

BMC or any other company can design a reliable engine within a few years, if they act like like start up and take decisions quickly if you don't mind some emission standards. That would add a couple more years.

i am talking about service worth equipment... not a engine that runs for 3 hours befor it break down...
No nation on earth can do that... it needs tonns of knowlege and endless hours of testings to sort out all design mistakes under all kind of conditions... heat dust rain snow ice... next problem is a engine that runs prober on a engine test stand how does the implantation into a thight engine compartment with limited heat exchange, hard hits from driving effect the engine...such tests consum tonns of time and are no were on this planet done in one year with a service worth 1500hp tank engine at the end

 

[Philip the Arab]

Very saddening that Altay became the new Tejas.

 

[hyperman]

Very saddening that Altay became the new Tejas.

its the nature of geopolitical changes, unexpected things happen and one has to adapt. but to be fair, the Arjun and Tejas situations are worse.. And Turkey seems closer to finishing the Altay project than what it looks like compared to the Arjun or the Tejas, which will be an underperforming and outdated fighter, which failed to meet full targets.

The Altay's subsystems are still fairly new and its performance is comparable to other tanks, and it doesnt seem like Turkey is all too behind in tank development compared to other countries. Engine and Transmission are a problem, but not something that can't be fixed with time, and the tank can continuously be upgraded like the Merkhava. And Turkey has enough of the Leopard stock, where there isnt a dire need that needs to be immediately met.

I feel the TF-X situation is a lot more dire, I can't even find out what engine they are going to use, some people said EJ200 engine, and then a drop in replacement thats locally developed. Then I heard General Electric F110, which is supposed to be replaced by a different drop in replacement. I can't even seem to narrow down, which local company is building the local engine(I heard TRMOTOR, but before that I heard Tusas), let alone discuss the extreme challenges and hazards of developing a competitive engine from scratch, even the russians are having problems with the izdeliye 30, which is horribly delayed, and lets not even discuss the Chinese and their troubles.. Right now it seems the only companies that at able to build good engines are GE, Pratt and Whitney, and RollsRoyce, with Snecma/Safran being close being them.

I think Turkey should try to get back in the f-35 program, and try to come towards a compromise over the s-400, or alternatively join the BAE Tempest program, and hope that it helps them in their development of the TF-X, like sweden is hoping to do. The other options are kind of bleak, as it would be reliant on the russians.