All Clear: India To Sign Deal For 36 Rafales This Month!!!!!!!!

[Dungeness]

Huh? I thought the 36 Rafales was a done deal a long time ago?

Multi birth to the same baby, so people can have multiply parties.

 

[LittleFish]

120-140 Rafales for Indian Navy, that's a huge number. I thought they will buy Rafale M for Vishal and a squadron for land base.

190 for IAF + 120 for IN. This is one hell of a order.
How good is the intel? What are delivery times for airforce and the navy?

U made me very happy man today. Thx

What the hell......you mean 300+ rafaels? The Russians must be unhappy to see the deal

 

[Indiran Chandiran]

1. The IN has requested MOD for IAC 1 modified type 2 more carriers and IAC2 type 2 carriers. IAC1 modified version will carry 2 squadrons of Rafale M. Coupled with land based training and needs is normally totalled 1.5 - 2 x the ACC birds so around 50 birds per IAC1 mod type is planned for purchase. This need implies 100 Rafale M straight forward and perhaps another 1-2 squads for shore based totalling 120-140 odd Rafale M for conventional carriers upto 2030

In anticipation for order , Dassault has started working for Indian order from June 2015. The original order was suppose to happen in August 2015 end. This is as per Ex Dassault people in forums[/QUOTE]

Just 1 query.not related to the procurement of Rafale.What's the diff between IAC 1 & IAC 1 modified? Going by your post it seems IN has 4 more AC's planned.Is it true & if yes , what are the projected timelines ?

Thanx in advance.

 

[PARIKRAMA]

1. The IN has requested MOD for IAC 1 modified type 2 more carriers and IAC2 type 2 carriers. IAC1 modified version will carry 2 squadrons of Rafale M. Coupled with land based training and needs is normally totalled 1.5 - 2 x the ACC birds so around 50 birds per IAC1 mod type is planned for purchase. This need implies 100 Rafale M straight forward and perhaps another 1-2 squads for shore based totalling 120-140 odd Rafale M for conventional carriers upto 2030

In anticipation for order , Dassault has started working for Indian order from June 2015. The original order was suppose to happen in August 2015 end. This is as per Ex Dassault people in forums

Just 1 query.not related to the procurement of Rafale.What's the diff between IAC 1 & IAC 1 modified? Going by your post it seems IN has 4 more AC's planned.Is it true & if yes , what are the projected timelines ?

Thanx in advance.

IAC1 is the original Vikrant Class we are building. Its optimized for about 30 Mig29K and about 10 rotor helos. The modified version will optimise either the design or increase tonnage by 5%-15% to accommodate about 2 squadrons of Rafale M approx 36 jets and 10 helos..

The though process so far has been that an optimized design with the same displacement of 40K tonnes can also accommodate additional 6 birds due to 10% approx shorter length and wingspan of Rafale M over Mig 29K

Mig29K dimensions is

• Length: 17.3 m (57.76 ft)
• Wingspan: 11.99 m (39.34 ft)
• Height: 4.40 m (14.44 ft)

Rafale M dimensions

• Length: 15.27 m (50.1 ft)
• Wingspan: 10.80 m (35.4 ft)
• Height: 5.34 m (17.5 ft)

The other idea has been to increase the tonnage by approx 10% and also additionally increase ship dimensions in the range of 5-10% to accommodate higher numbers.

Owing to the ability of Rafale M for shorter take off, the first idea is more economical over increased tonnage idea. The final decision is not yet taken about this.

About 4 ACCs, IN plan as per Blue water Navy ambition is 5 CBGs with of INS Vikramaditya, 2 IAC1 Vikrant Class and 2 INS Vishal Class. Over long run the INS vikramaditya would be replaced by IAC1 Vikrant type ACC only.

The idea has been that 5 CBGs would be deployed in

1. Arabian Sea/ West Coast
2. Bay of Bengal/ East Coast
3. Andaman and Nicobar
4. Mauritius Seychelles Chabahar
5. Stand by

With this IN would also require a fleet of escort ships of either Kolkata class or newer P18 envisioned and 1 or 2 SSN per CBG in the long run.

Thats why the role of naval aircraft is going to increase multifold.

Unless we get a proper Make In India for Rafale, IN procurement is difficult as they prefer MII route only. Thus, Rafale scope of business is humongous for Indian market.

About Timelines, present under construction should come by 2019-20, one more IAC1 is suppose to be there by 2027-29 and third by 2035-37. The INS Vishal story may be longer and first one may come around 2027-30 types and second one may be around 2037-40 types as per my understanding.

IN may target maximum by 2030 types as per their December Navy day outlook but thats a bit ambitious unless parallel construction for both IAC1 and IAC2 in 2 numbers each is being done so that 2030 all 4 ships are sailing and inducted.

 

[Indiran Chandiran]

Just 1 query.not related to the procurement of Rafale.What's the diff between IAC 1 & IAC 1 modified? Going by your post it seems IN has 4 more AC's planned.Is it true & if yes , what are the projected timelines ?

Thanx in advance.

IAC1 is the original Vikrant Class we are building. Its optimized for about 30 Mig29K and about 10 rotor helos. The modified version will optimise either the design or increase tonnage by 5%-15% to accommodate about 2 squadrons of Rafale M approx 36 jets and 10 helos..

The though process so far has been that an optimized design with the same displacement of 40K tonnes can also accommodate additional 6 birds due to 10% approx shorter length and wingspan of Rafale M over Mig 29K

Mig29K dimensions is

• Length: 17.3 m (57.76 ft)
• Wingspan: 11.99 m (39.34 ft)
• Height: 4.40 m (14.44 ft)

Rafale M dimensions

• Length: 15.27 m (50.1 ft)
• Wingspan: 10.80 m (35.4 ft)
• Height: 5.34 m (17.5 ft)

The other idea has been to increase the tonnage by approx 10% and also additionally increase ship dimensions in the range of 5-10% to accommodate higher numbers.

Owing to the ability of Rafale M for shorter take off, the first idea is more economical over increased tonnage idea. The final decision is not yet taken about this.

About 4 ACCs, IN plan as per Blue water Navy ambition is 5 CBGs with of INS Vikramaditya, 2 IAC1 Vikrant Class and 2 INS Vishal Class. Over long run the INS vikramaditya would be replaced by IAC1 Vikrant type ACC only.

The idea has been that 5 CBGs would be deployed in

1. Arabian Sea/ West Coast
2. Bay of Bengal/ East Coast
3. Andaman and Nicobar
4. Mauritius Seychelles Chabahar
5. Stand by

With this IN would also require a fleet of escort ships of either Kolkata class or newer P18 envisioned and 1 or 2 SSN per CBG in the long run.

Thats why the role of naval aircraft is going to increase multifold.

Unless we get a proper Make In India for Rafale, IN procurement is difficult as they prefer MII route only. Thus, Rafale scope of business is humongous for Indian market.

About Timelines, present under construction should come by 2019-20, one more IAC1 is suppose to be there by 2027-29 and third by 2035-37. The INS Vishal story may be longer and first one may come around 2027-30 types and second one may be around 2037-40 types as per my understanding.

IN may target maximum by 2030 types as per their December Navy day outlook but thats a bit ambitious unless parallel construction for both IAC1 and IAC2 in 2 numbers each is being done so that 2030 all 4 ships are sailing and inducted.[/QUOTE]

Thanks very much for the informative post , bro.I never realized the IN had such bold plans but this raises an interesting query.PLAN too has a no of AC's planned (6 if I'm not mistaken incl 4 Super Careers I.e 75k+ tonnage, mostly powered by N propulsion ) for duty in the Indo Pacific .How come with all their foresight , IN isn't planning one for patrol duty in the SCS / ECS & the Pacific?

Request you to shed some light on this aspect too.

 

[PARIKRAMA]

IAC1 is the original Vikrant Class we are building. Its optimized for about 30 Mig29K and about 10 rotor helos. The modified version will optimise either the design or increase tonnage by 5%-15% to accommodate about 2 squadrons of Rafale M approx 36 jets and 10 helos..

The though process so far has been that an optimized design with the same displacement of 40K tonnes can also accommodate additional 6 birds due to 10% approx shorter length and wingspan of Rafale M over Mig 29K

Mig29K dimensions is

• Length: 17.3 m (57.76 ft)
• Wingspan: 11.99 m (39.34 ft)
• Height: 4.40 m (14.44 ft)

Rafale M dimensions

• Length: 15.27 m (50.1 ft)
• Wingspan: 10.80 m (35.4 ft)
• Height: 5.34 m (17.5 ft)

The other idea has been to increase the tonnage by approx 10% and also additionally increase ship dimensions in the range of 5-10% to accommodate higher numbers.

Owing to the ability of Rafale M for shorter take off, the first idea is more economical over increased tonnage idea. The final decision is not yet taken about this.

About 4 ACCs, IN plan as per Blue water Navy ambition is 5 CBGs with of INS Vikramaditya, 2 IAC1 Vikrant Class and 2 INS Vishal Class. Over long run the INS vikramaditya would be replaced by IAC1 Vikrant type ACC only.

The idea has been that 5 CBGs would be deployed in

1. Arabian Sea/ West Coast
2. Bay of Bengal/ East Coast
3. Andaman and Nicobar
4. Mauritius Seychelles Chabahar
5. Stand by

With this IN would also require a fleet of escort ships of either Kolkata class or newer P18 envisioned and 1 or 2 SSN per CBG in the long run.

Thats why the role of naval aircraft is going to increase multifold.

Unless we get a proper Make In India for Rafale, IN procurement is difficult as they prefer MII route only. Thus, Rafale scope of business is humongous for Indian market.

About Timelines, present under construction should come by 2019-20, one more IAC1 is suppose to be there by 2027-29 and third by 2035-37. The INS Vishal story may be longer and first one may come around 2027-30 types and second one may be around 2037-40 types as per my understanding.

IN may target maximum by 2030 types as per their December Navy day outlook but thats a bit ambitious unless parallel construction for both IAC1 and IAC2 in 2 numbers each is being done so that 2030 all 4 ships are sailing and inducted.

Thanks very much for the informative post , bro.I never realized the IN had such bold plans but this raises an interesting query.PLAN too has a no of AC's planned (6 if I'm not mistaken incl 4 Super Careers I.e 75k+ tonnage, mostly powered by N propulsion ) for duty in the Indo Pacific .How come with all their foresight , IN isn't planning one for patrol duty in the SCS / ECS & the Pacific?

Request you to shed some light on this aspect too.

India does not need to patrol SCS. If you see a CBG in the route of Mauritius - Seychelles- Chabahar and one CBG around Andaman Nicobar effectively encircles our Indian Ocean which is our own backyard Ocean and thus bears our name too. Couple with the 2 CBGs in West and East coast and one in Stand By this setup is adequate to protect our vital economic and military interests in the region.

SCS patrolling can be handled by US Super Carriers and Japanese Heli carriers.... Pacific India does not need a power projection at all. The SCS and Pacific outstretches our vital supply lines for a miltary effective patrolling and i do not see too many economic benefits out of that. The Vietnam Oilfields itself is well protected by Vietnamese ppl and USA doing its bit along with Japan.

India does not need any CBG group for such a region like SCS or pacific. If it does its a waste of our resources and unnecessary power projection beyond what we should try and contain our influence with.

Individual Ships can always go to Vietnam and continue our friendship and port calls.. That should be adequate for next 20-30 years. To place a CBG in SCS /Pacific means India can very well become a NATO partner which i dont think would serve India's interests.

 

[Indiran Chandiran]

India does not need to patrol SCS. If you see a CBG in the route of Mauritius - Seychelles- Chabahar and one CBG around Andaman Nicobar effectively encircles our Indian Ocean which is our own backyard Ocean and thus bears our name too. Couple with the 2 CBGs in West and East coast and one in Stand By this setup is adequate to protect our vital economic and military interests in the region.

SCS patrolling can be handled by US Super Carriers and Japanese Heli carriers.... Pacific India does not need a power projection at all. The SCS and Pacific outstretches our vital supply lines for a miltary effective patrolling and i do not see too many economic benefits out of that. The Vietnam Oilfields itself is well protected by Vietnamese ppl and USA doing its bit along with Japan.

India does not need any CBG group for such a region like SCS or pacific. If it does its a waste of our resources and unnecessary power projection beyond what we should try and contain our influence with.

Individual Ships can always go to Vietnam and continue our friendship and port calls.. That should be adequate for next 20-30 years. To place a CBG in SCS /Pacific means India can very well become a NATO partner which i dont think would serve India's interests.

Thanks once more for the illuminating info.

 

[Archie]

Let the deal get signed first
Wait for January 25
We will find out whether we will get 36 or 54 or 80 Rafales

 

[PARIKRAMA]

Thanks once more for the illuminating info.

TBH the North Korea Nuke test itself will create heightened tensions in SCS. To contain and protect SKorea who may also wish to seek nuclear weapons to bring in parity with North and feel secured, USA to dissuade will increase troops from present 28K odd to much higher number coupled with advance ballistic SAMs (Patriot and THAAD). We may see far more patrolling and perhaps 2 CBGs in that region.

Coupled with Shino Abe pushing for military expansion which the pacifist Japan has resisted but in view of the threat from North Korea and Raising Nuclear tensions, the military expansion of Japanese forces stands assured for Abe.

This single development will see a far greater engagement vs a vs the issue of North Korea and militarisation of the region..

All that is bad news for China as effectively the military buildup they expected over 2 decades will now be completed in just years bcz of a N threat.

Thats why India should stay away from SCS.. Its too hot to handle now.. Better avoid it for finalising plans for Indian Ocean.

 

[rockstarIN]

Bit ToT stuff..

Its going on Rafe's way...where they denied HAL as prime contractor.

 

[anant_s]

this is a Drooling prospect.
@Abingdonboy
i guess if they can allow a little cushion for FGFA by massive induction of Rafale, while meeting IN requirements as well, it'll be a stroke of genius.

 

[Immanuel]

Well all said and done, let's 1st wait till the 36 are ordered and delivered, from what was confirmed all 36 won't even arrive before 2023, 7 years to deliver all. Complete waste of time. As for further orders, I can at best see another 3 Sqds being ordered at a later stage, 90 Rafales in total with 1 Sqd being deployed at each of the 5 air commands.

As for the Navy, what will the Navy do operating 4.5 Gen aircraft in a 5.5 Gen timeframe. They are still no way near to make deicsions on another Vikrant Class ship while working on the Vishal or the LPD. Having the Rafale on a second Vikrant class ship around 2027 is all but lunacy of thinking. If anything stands a chance of being acquired at that time its probaby the F-35 or Naval version of the AMCA or Naval PAKFA if there is one. This source sounds like he is mix facts with fiction. Nothing in India goes according to timelines and Rafale is an outdated aircraft by 2020.

 

[surya kiran]

Huh? I thought the 36 Rafales was a done deal a long time ago?

Both countries agreed to sign an agreement in the not so distant future. Now, the agreement will be signed. Have you learnt nothing about Indian procurement?

Btw, this chap is normally spot on. Does not spread rubbish.

this is a Drooling prospect.
@Abingdonboy
i guess if they can allow a little cushion for FGFA by massive induction of Rafale, while meeting IN requirements as well, it'll be a stroke of genius.

Dude, both projects are on. Rafale is not going to be 36. It is going to be 100+. As for PakFa, I was really disappointed when they did not proceed to buy excess capacity of the Russians. But, the deal is still on. The AMCA is at-least 10 to 15 years away.

 

[anant_s]

The AMCA is at-least 10 to 15 years away.

I'm not sure if AMCA is going to be a reality. Eventually LCA Mark 2, Rafale and FGFA will fulfill almost all requirements of IAF and then UCAV will start to make their presence felt.
AMCA might start looking redundant thought.
@Abingdonboy @PARIKRAMA

 

[surya kiran]

I'm not sure if AMCA is going to be a reality. Eventually LCA Mark 2, Rafale and FGFA will fulfill almost all requirements of IAF and then UCAV will start to make their presence felt.
AMCA might start looking redundant thought.
@Abingdonboy @PARIKRAMA

There will be AMCA Mk1 to Mk4 which will have a,b,c,d in for each number. Final ASQR will be the TiE fighter which can launched from an Imperial Class Destroyer. And flown by clones.