All Clear: India To Sign Deal For 36 Rafales This Month!!!!!!!!

[PARIKRAMA]

An AMCA design incorporating all of the advanced features of the Rafale would produce superior results IMHO. The Rafale is an incredible design and ahead of its time for sure but it is still a 4.5+ gen fighter only and built optimising that mandate. There will be inherant issues in "5th genising" the Rafale, and I think the main issue may be the internal weapons bay- one can see this demonstrated on the comprimised internal weapons carrying performance of the F-15 "Silent Eagle".

Appyling all the lessons learnt from the Rafale with an entirely new, highly optimised, VLO airframe, improved powerplants, Indian/French AESA radar, next generation cockpit, full spectrum sensor fusion etc will produce an absolute beast.

And with France as a partner this won't be pie in the sky dreaming but very very attainable.

Small issue.. European folks like the term "unmanned" more as it sounds futuristic to them...
France may have similar view


But i tell you building AMCA as F35 inspiration is a bad choice.. Rafale as parent platform is far more sensible. The biggest benefit is Rafale already has very potent sensor fusion and in future upgrades F3R2 or otherwise previously called F4, they are making the standard even higher. Potentially the tech is available right now, if we fund the project and develop inhouse jointly the 5th Gen tech, i see a very strong chance for AMCA success at 2030 timeline surely.

15 years are required fro larger rafale with Internal Weapon Door, newer engine development and protos flying and testing. And knowing M88 family, that engine can be far more delightful in terms of overall features and advanced as against GE 414.

 

[Abingdonboy]

I think Saab are desperate and would offer more in ToT than Dassult would in my view

They should be brought in as consultants for the AMCA

What can SAAB offer ToT on? The engine? Nope. The AESA radar? Nope.

SAAB's "expertise" would be useless in the two main areas of expertise that India is having trouble mastering and that are critical to a 5th gen platforms, ToT on servos isn't much help to the AMCA or India as a whole.

 

[PARIKRAMA]

What can SAAB offer ToT on? The engine? Nope. The AESA radar? Nope.

SAAB's "expertise" would be useless in the two main areas of expertise that India is having trouble mastering and that are critical to a 5th gen platforms, ToT on servos isn't much help to the AMCA or India as a whole.

Saab can offer us Sea Gripen whose export potential is Thai navy ACC which is their targeted customer for
10 sea gripen

But Saab can do one thing good too.. It can once again be "lead integrator" of all tech from all over the world and make Gripen 5G


I will tag @Taygibay here who has a "fetish" for Saab related topics..
Tay you can do the demolition !!!

 

[Abingdonboy]

Small issue.. European folks like the term "unmanned" more as it sounds futuristic to them...
France may have similar view

In the timeline we are talking about (2030) unmanned aerial vehicles will not be alternatives to manned fighters-no way in hell! They will be more capable strike platforms than they are today as well as being the go to ISR platforms but that is where their utility will end. I don't see them being able to sucesfully hold their own in dogfights by 2030 (or even 2040).

And I will say something- the French are perhaps one of the most pragmatic and strategically focused nations on earth. They aren't like the US or UK (or the Europeans you are speaking of) who get caught up in the hype of the "new" and "fancy" tech or place their bets on promised performance. The French understand what is the reality and work towards it, you can see where others have lost themselves in the woods (F-35, F-22 to an extent, A400- the French have ordered brand new C-130Js to offset delays and meet their critical requirements whilst other nations hinge entirely on the A400 etc etc).

As such, the French will stick to what is relevent and that will be manned fighters for the forseeable future.

But i tell you building AMCA as F35 inspiration is a bad choice.. Rafale as parent platform is far more sensible. The biggest benefit is Rafale already has very potent sensor fusion and in future upgrades F3R2 or otherwise previously called F4, they are making the standard even higher. Potentially the tech is available right now, if we fund the project and develop inhouse jointly the 5th Gen tech, i see a very strong chance for AMCA success at 2030 timeline surely.



15 years are required fro larger rafale with Internal Weapon Door, newer engine development and protos flying and testing. And knowing M88 family, that engine can be far more delightful in terms of overall features and advanced as against GE 414.

Bro, what I am proposing is entirely contrary to the F-35 approach as it is not starting from scratch with a clean peice of paper but building on exsisting expertise. The airframe will be the limiting factor and here even India can produce the advanced VLO shell itself, couple that with design cues and expertise taken from the Rafale, the advanced sensor fusion, uprated engines that will be based on exsisting designs/cores and radar tech already in service/under production and you have yourself a winner imho!

15 years are required fro larger rafale with Internal Weapon Door, .

IF that is possible, I'm not sure I am comfortable making that assumption- who knows what the limitations of the current design is and if the placement of the internals of the Rafale as is allow for an adequate internal weapons bay. I am simply thinking that if the comparably larger F-15 had serious trouble with its internal weapons bay demensions as well as internal fuel capcity in the "Silent Eagle" variant then the Rafale is likely to face the same insurmountable challenges.

The law of diminishing returns states that there will be a point where marginal benefits fail to exceed marginal costs or at least the gap between the two contracts considerably. There will be a limit to how far you can develop the 1980s designed Rafale.

 

[KIND]

The all-clear is here, and there's no way to tell it but straight. Livefist can confirm that India and France are all set to sign a government-to-government deal this month for the supply of 36 Dassault Rafale fighter jets to the Indian Air Force. A crucial final meeting on Monday, Jan 18 of the Defence Acquisition Council (DAC) will provide final approval, paving the way for contract signature. France's Defence Minister Jean-Yves Le Drian, a man plenty familiar with India as a result of the meandering Rafale process, arrives in Delhi when the DAC meets, spurring reports that an agreement has already been reached -- with formalities pending.

All 36 jets will be supplied in flyaway form from Dassault's facility near the Bordeaux–Mérignac Airport. The deal will be signed on January 25 in the presence of Prime Minister Narendra Modi & French President François Hollande who will be in Delhi later this month as chief guest at India's Republic Day Parade.
Courtesy: Livefist
LIVEFIST: All Clear: India To Sign Deal For 36 Rafales This Month

And Shiv Aroor is a no nonsense, close to PMO , and an authentic defense Jurno unlike india tv and TOIlet....

S Jha and S Aroor both good... i prefer s jha

 

[Abingdonboy]

S Jha and S Aroor both good... i prefer s jha

Shiv Aroor is a clown but sadly he is still one of the better defence journalists in India- how sad is that?

S Jha is in an entirely different league- his logic, understanding and technical analysis are simply unmatched in the Indian defence realm.

 

[Water Car Engineer]

Shiv Aroor is a clown but sadly he is still one of the better defence journalists in India- how sad is that?

S Jha is in an entirely different league- his logic, understanding and technical analysis are simply unmatched in the Indian defence realm.

Out of all the journalist, bloggers out there, he's by far giving the most exclusives. First images of MCIWS, Official pic of Arihant, Rustom with Helina, among several others.

 

[KIND]

Shiv Aroor is a clown but sadly he is still one of the better defence journalists in India- how sad is that?

S Jha is in an entirely different league- his logic, understanding and technical analysis are simply unmatched in the Indian defence realm.

yup sjha kolkata boy and product of the great presidency college calcutta

 

[sathya]

Indeed, I keep forgetting those deals have been signed! And for prospective deals the S-70B and A330 MRTT will add to this shift in culture going foreward.

I think it is in India's best interest to stick to France where possible for defence deals- they are a friendly nation, willing to work with India but they will also insist on working how they know is best so that no corners are cut. If the Rafale deal goes well for sure French technical assistance will be coming to the LCA (and by extension AMCA) and many other future projects (IMRH? AURA?).

France doesn't have an active 5th generation fighter project, the AMCA still on the drawing board (meaning open to external influence) and the IAF and FrAF both commiting to the Rafale and its future roadmap I think there is something very intriguing laying down the road for both nations....

Yes India would be the less experienced partner in many arenas but India has proven it is able to step up to the task and has the capacity to devlop new capabilites rapidly.

How good does a Indo-French (with some Israeli help thrown in) AMCA/fith gen project sound? It sounds pretty good to me @PARIKRAMA @Taygibay @Vauban @anant_s

We looked France Snecma for LCA engines, nothing happened.
Don't know what actually went down .
May be tech is hard core, our expectations were over expectations .

 

[PARIKRAMA]

In the timeline we are talking about (2030) unmanned aerial vehicles will not be alternatives to manned fighters-no way in hell! They will be more capable strike platforms than they are today as well as being the go to ISR platforms but that is where their utility will end. I don't see them being able to sucesfully hold their own in dogfights by 2030 (or even 2040).

And I will say something- the French are perhaps one of the most pragmatic and strategically focused nations on earth. They aren't like the US or UK (or the Europeans you are speaking of) who get caught up in the hype of the "new" and "fancy" tech or place their bets on promised performance. The French understand what is the reality and work towards it, you can see where others have lost themselves in the woods (F-35, F-22 to an extent, A400- the French have ordered brand new C-130Js to offset delays and meet their critical requirements whilst other nations hinge entirely on the A400 etc etc).

As such, the French will stick to what is relevent and that will be manned fighters for the forseeable future.



Bro, what I am proposing is entirely contrary to the F-35 approach as it is not starting from scratch with a clean peice of paper but building on exsisting expertise. The airframe will be the limiting factor and here even India can produce the advanced VLO shell itself, couple that with design cues and expertise taken from the Rafale, the advanced sensor fusion, uprated engines that will be based on exsisting designs/cores and radar tech already in service/under production and you have yourself a winner imho!


IF that is possible, I'm not sure I am comfortable making that assumption- who knows what the limitations of the current design is and if the placement of the internals of the Rafale as is allow for an adequate internal weapons bay. I am simply thinking that if the comparably larger F-15 had serious trouble with its internal weapons bay demensions as well as internal fuel capcity in the "Silent Eagle" variant then the Rafale is likely to face the same insurmountable challenges.

The law of diminishing returns states that there will be a point where marginal benefits fail to exceed marginal costs or at least the gap between the two contracts considerably. There will be a limit to how far you can develop the 1980s designed Rafale.

Bro i quoted the present genesis and resemblance of AMCA as F35 inspiration..

I for one is very convinced that Rafale platform evolution into AMCA 5th Gen can work best.. Yes, issues would crop up surely but then that can be solved. The IWB (internal Weapon Bays), the larger size etc will pose a challenge but then again Dassault does have one of the best brains in designing.. Couple that with India's coding... This combination can make a far more formidable jet...

The main contention would be whether France feels the need for such a JV or 5th Gen fighter all together? Who knows they are developing Neuron tech and later use some Neuron tech in Rafale and in house only develop Rafale to almost 5th Gen standard.

 

[Pandemonium]

Hey

Source Based Info:

1. The deal is for 36+18
2. India has assured a minimum of 80+ flyaway in increments bought from Merignac plan
3. The 50% plan offset under DPP 2016 is the route for MII
4. The IN has requested MOD for IAC 1 modified type 2 more carriers and IAC2 type 2 carriers. IAC1 modified version will carry 2 squadrons of Rafale M. Coupled with land based training and needs is normally totalled 1.5 - 2 x the ACC birds so around 50 birds per IAC1 mod type is planned for purchase. This need implies 100 Rafale M straight forward and perhaps another 1-2 squads for shore based totalling 120-140 odd Rafale M for conventional carriers upto 2030.
5. MOD has not approved this plan as of now and has indicated a detailed meeting soon.
6. IAC 2 N propulsion plans may add either another 100-150 odd rafales at 3 squadrons per carrier with land based reserves all together totaling approx 8 squardrons. USA has offerred F35 for such numbers with customisations
7. IAC2 aircraft decision not yet taken and discussion for a suitable package underway negotiated with both Dassault and LM
8. IAF has defined SFC need 80+ Rafales and 6 squadrons for activities totaling close to 190

Awaiting more concrete information

@Abingdonboy @Vauban @SR-91 @anant_s
India may become a much larger user of Rafale as its evidently clear that 5th Gen program will come much closer to 2027-2030 timeline giving a opportunity of 12-15 years to upgrade every depletion of squadron strength.


In anticipation for order , Dassault has started working for Indian order from June 2015. The original order was suppose to happen in August 2015 end. This is as per Ex Dassault people in forums[/QUO

Hey , one quick question . For the navy to have rafale would mean the iac1 modified class would have to be a CATOBAR carrier right ? Or can the rafale take off from a STOBAR carrier as well ?
If things work out as planned and on time , the indian navy of the future looks orgasmic to say the least . Thanks for the info

 

[surya kiran]

Or can the rafale take off from a STOBAR carrier as well

It can take off without modifications, albeit with a lower loadout.

The reason a Rafale-M makes sense for IN is purely maintenance during operations. Add to this a supply base established in India. This will bring down costs of acquisition.

But, the question is, will the IN bite?
Indian Navy Submitted an RFI to Dassault about the Rafale M Carrier Capable Variant

It will be interesting to get @Capt.Popeye view on this.

 

[PARIKRAMA]

Hey

Hey , one quick question . For the navy to have rafale would mean the iac1 modified class would have to be a CATOBAR carrier right ? Or can the rafale take off from a STOBAR carrier as well ?
If things work out as planned and on time , the indian navy of the future looks orgasmic to say the least . Thanks for the info

Its designed to operate in both configuration... The Weapons carrying capability/load will differ in both configuration.
We all do hope such a plan works out but will need serious introspection further.

If suppose we go for N propulsion in IAC 2 with EMALs there could be a huge pressure on IN for a packaged deal of F35s and E2D hawkeye. IN would like Hawkeye but F35s directly bought off the shelf can be a potential nightmare for IN who are always in forefront for Make In India planning.

The other option Rafales with IAF can actually help IN potentially with lower cost of setup especially training part for Service folks as that MRO/Repairing and Service setup would be available in India already.

The other option being if we say operate our NLCA from IAC 1, the potential range+weapon load would be much lower than say Rafales/Mig29K

I remember that IN can also order more Mig29Ks for IAC1 but the potential industrial benefit if IAF goes and gets a MII line for Rafales in India along with Service/Repair hubs can make the whole setup attractive for IN.

The reason a Rafale-M makes sense for IN is purely maintenance during operations. Add to this a supply base established in India. This will bring down costs of acquisition.

But, the question is, will the IN bite?

A very good question Sir...
My worry as i defined above is the so called scenario where we are forced to have F35s due to EMALS help from USA and get ourselves 100 odd F35s. This will force us to use NLCAs in IAC1 future ACCs for sure due to cost considerations.

I am not sure if F35 can be as good as it claims for Naval missions. But still off the shelf 100 odd numbers for 2 carriers with limited maintenance in India and dependency on USA coupled with NLCA limiting the potential of IAC1 future carriers makes me feel very uncomfortable.. We can only imagine the kind of pressure IN folks would be seeing such a situation

If IN plans 5 CBGS then having 1 ACC with Mig29K and rest 4 with Rafale M makes far more sense to me then to have say 1 ACC with Mig 29K, 2 ACC with N LCA and 2 more with F35s. Imagine the operational nightmare Navy will have what IAF is facing right now with so many variants..