Al-Khalid 2

[Officer of Engineers]

So now, I can't judge military matters and call a spade a spade? The good Captain was right. Enjoy your forum. It's damned obvious that this is not a place for military.

 

[Chukkar]

Easier for you to say that...

KSA has never faced the odds that PA had to face in EP in 71.

Odds or not, the PA was outfought in 71, and its leadership behaved disgracefully.

What are the standards that you are referring to? An evenly matched IA was handed its *** by the Chinese in 62 and here you expect that 45000 troops should have worked out some sort of a miracle by holding back a three-pronged attack by 3 times their number in IA and another 100K MBs who had the support of the locals all the while without air support or replenishment of troops or material from West Pakistan?

"Victory has many fathers, defeat is an orphan", rather many excuses!

Read the Hamoodur Rehman report to get an idea of how the PA in 71 folded up.

 

[sigatoka]

1. And at least half those planes are being flown by instructors, ada mercs.

2. The Saudis are bad. The Australians would have no problem killing their entire army. Hell, a Canadian mech brigade group could wipe out the entire Saudi army.

1. So? U.S. military employs mercernaries in Iraq in the form of security groups. In fact all soldiers are mercs in that they fight for monetary payments and i dont see whats wrong in it.

2. Maybe the Canadian troops should destroy the rag-tag Taliban who dont have F-15's, Tanks, Artillery, SAM's and who number in the thousands rather than tens of thousands.

 

[blain2]

Odds or not, the PA was outfought in 71, and its leadership behaved disgracefully.




"Victory has many fathers, defeat is an orphan", rather many excuses!

Read the Hamoodur Rehman report to get an idea of how the PA in 71 folded up.

I think I have a better understanding of HR report than you do having seen it in its entirety. PA was ordered to surrender by the western command and they did so. They were not routed in any part of EP by the mighty IA. That we lost the Eastern wing of our country is not lost on us. However when you use overly simplistic ways of describing the performance of the PA then I have issues with it. Also in the context of the discussion about KSA and its army's performance, there is absolutely no comparison between what PA faced in EP and what the Saudis have had to face in the recent or distant past.

 

[MOO]

And at least half those planes are being flown by instructors, ada mercs.

If that is so than why did UK offered Saudi Arabia their very own Typhoon plant for self-production? I don't think you've been up to date with the Aviation industries nowaday's because the last time I've heard the UK had barely any man power left to supply a sufficient numbers of planes for themselves, let alone offer pilots to foreign countries. The UK cannot afford to cut supplies of their Tranche 2 in order to make room for the Saudi orders, so, half of the planes will be built in EU and the other half in Saudi Arabia to ease to supply.


Saudi says to assemble some of its 72 Eurofighters

Mon Aug 21, 2006 12:37pm ET137

RIYADH, Aug 21 (Reuters) - Saudi Arabia said on Monday an unspecified number of the 72 Eurofighter Typhoon warplanes it bought in a deal with the multinational Eurofighter consortium will be assembled in the kingdom.

The cabinet said in a statement after its weekly meeting the aircraft "were bought at the same price offered to the British air forces and part of them will be assembled and made in the kingdom".

Saudi Arabia said late on Thursday it would take up to 72 of the combat war jets from the multinational Eurofighter consortium which includes British defence contractor BAE Systems Plc (BA.L: Quote, Profile, Research), Airbus parent firm EADS (EAD.PA: Quote, Profile, Research) and Alenia Aeronautica, part of Italy's Finmeccanica (SIFI.MI: Quote, Profile, Research).

The kingdom did not disclose the value of the deal which analysts estimate at about $11.4 billion but said it provided for defence technology transfer.

Britain and Saudi Arabia agreed that the Gulf state would purchase the planes after having signed an initial deal in December.

The cabinet statement, carried by state media, said the Typhoon deal comes under the kingdom's policy to modernise its armed forces equipment, adding it provides for training Saudi nationals. It did not give further details.

BAE is expected to invest in local training for thousands of Saudi nationals.

The jets will replace British-made Tornado and other planes in a deal which marks a defeat for France's Dassault Aviation (AVMD.PA: Quote, Profile, Research), which was hoping for its first export customer for the Rafale combat jet.

Saudi Arabia has a long history of buying arms from Britain dating back to the 1960s, and usually pays in oil.

© Reuters 2006. All Rights Reserved.

Yeah, and most of them are rusting in the desert.

Oh really? Why is it that they had just recently signed a contract with the US to upgrading all of their M1A2 to the S models? As if the M1A2 model wasn't enough already, the S varient takes it to a whole new level.

I also like to mention the Saudi's also has more armor than Australia and more are coming..cough* 700 LAVs!


Saudi Arabia - M1A1 and Upgrade of M1A2 to M1A2S Abrams Tanks

(Source: US Defense Security Cooperation Agency; issued June 28, 2006)




Saudi Arabia will spend $2.9 billion to buy additional M-1A1 tanks, like this US Army Abrams shown in Iraq, and rebuild its entire fleet to “like-new” M1A2S standard. (US Army photo by Jacob N Bailey).
WASHINGTON --- The Defense Security Cooperation Agency notified Congress of a possible Foreign Military Sale to Saudi Arabia of M1A1 and upgrade of M1A2 to M1A2S Abrams tanks as well as associated equipment and services.

The total value, if all options are exercised, could be as high as $2.9 billion.

The Government of Saudi Arabia has requested a possible sale and reconfiguration for 58 M1A1 Abrams tanks, which, together with 315 M1A2 Abrams tanks already in Saudi Arabia’s inventory, will be modified and upgraded to the M1A2S (Saudi) Abrams configuration, kits, spare and repair parts, communications and support equipment, publications and technical data, personnel training and training equipment, contractor engineering and technical support services and other related elements of logistics support. The estimated cost is $2.9 billion.

We previously notified transmittal number 90-07 to Congress on 2 December 1989 of the possible sale of 315 M1A2A Abrams tanks, with ancillary weapons and equipment, 30 M88A1 recovery vehicles, 175 M998 utility trucks, other trucks, ammunition, and full logistics support for an estimated value of $725 million.

Transmittal number 90-78 was notified to Congress on 27 October 1990 for the possible sale of 150 M1A2 tanks, 200 Bradley Fighting Vehicle Family Systems (including TOW versions and 1,750 TOW IIA Missiles), 207 M113 Armored Personnel Carrier Family Vehicles, 50 M548 Cargo Carriers, 17 M88A1 and 43 M578 Recovery Vehicles, ammunition, and full logistics support for an estimated value of $3.2 billion.

This proposed sale will contribute to the foreign policy and national security of the United States by helping to improve the security of a friendly country that has been and continues to be an important force for political stability and economic progress in the Middle East.

This proposed sale consists of three phases:

(1) engineering phase for 30 months,
(2) purchase of and upgrade of 58 M1A1s to M1A2S (Saudi) configuration, and
(3) tear down of the 315 M1A2 Abrams in Saudi Arabia’s tank fleet and upgrade to the M1A2S configuration.

The Abrams Integrated Management (AIM) program was designed economically to rebuild and maintain the M1A1 Main Battle Tank (MBT) to a ‘like new’ condition to improve fleet readiness and reduce sustainment costs. The 58 M1A1s will undergo an ‘AIM-like’ process and will be upgraded to the M1A2S configuration in the United States. The 315 Saudi M1A2A MBT’s will undergo an ‘AIM-like’ process and will be re-configured to the M1A2S configuration. Vehicle teardown and final re-assembly will be accomplished in Saudi Arabia.

The proposed sale and upgrade will allow Saudi Arabia to operate and exercise a more lethal and survivable M1A2S tank for the protection of critical infrastructure. This proposed sale/upgrade keeps a substantial number of tanks in the region that have a high degree of commonality with the U.S. tank fleet. The M1A2S design is intended to take advantage of the digital capabilities of the M1A2 while limiting obsolescence challenges. Saudi will have no difficulty absorbing these additional tanks into its armed forces.

The proposed sale of this equipment and support will not affect the basic military balance in the region.

The prime contractor will be General Dynamics Land Systems of Sterling Heights, Michigan. There are no known offset agreements proposed in connection with this potential sale.

Implementation of this proposed sale will require the assignment of U.S. Government and contractor representatives to Saudi Arabia for up to eight years. The exact number of representatives will be established during program definition between representatives of the United States Government and the purchaser.

There will be no adverse impact on U.S. defense readiness as a result of this proposed sale.

This notice of a potential sale is required by law; it does not mean that the sale has been concluded.

-ends-

http://www.defense-aerospace.com/cgi-bin/c...k&modele=jdc_34


BUSH APPROVES $6B ARMS SALE TO SAUDIS




WASHINGTON [MENL] -- The Bush administration has approved the sale of more than $6 billion worth of military platforms and equipment to Saudi Arabia.

The Defense Department has notified Congress that the administration plans to sell helicopters, armored vehicles, communications systems and other equipment to Saudi Arabia. Officials said this would mark the largest Saudi arms purchase from the United States in more than a decade.

The largest element of the proposed deal would be the sale of 724 lightly armored vehicles, or LAV-25s, built by General Dynamics. The sale would also include more than 2,300 long-range AN/VRC-90E, 92E and 119E single-channel ground and airborne radio systems manufactured by Harris Corp.

The Pentagon's Defense Security Cooperation Agency said the proposed contracts with General Dynamics and Harris would reach $5.8 billion. Officials said the armored vehicles and radios would be supplied to the Saudi Arabian National Guard.

http://www.menewsline.com/stories/2006/july/07_24_2.html

 

[Ozzy]

So now, I can't judge military matters and call a spade a spade? The good Captain was right. Enjoy your forum. It's damned obvious that this is not a place for military.

I'd put stock in OoE's words. My father served as a resident officer in Saudi during and post PGW1. Their military psyche back then was every bit as bad as he states. All about expensive toys and little discipline or training. I was a kid back then and I still remember him coming home and pulling his hair out.

I'd trust OOE's words over most others here obstinate in their defense of their Saudi 'brothers'. That word flies out the window once you get to witness the treatment of South Asians in Saud. There is nothing wrong with calling them rascals.

Anyway I have heard however, that the RSAF has some of the best F-15 pilots in the world. This comes from an American aviator at the SimHQ forums.

 

[sigatoka]

1. I'd put stock in OoE's words. My father served as a resident officer in Saudi during and post PGW1. Their military psyche back then was every bit as bad as he states. All about expensive toys and little discipline or training. I was a kid back then and I still remember him coming home and pulling his hair out.

2. I'd trust OOE's words over most others here obstinate in their defense of their Saudi 'brothers'. That word flies out the window once you get to witness the treatment of South Asians in Saud. There is nothing wrong with calling them rascals.

1. That was a while back, when changing the size of the military and structure dramatically there are large short term adjustment costs. After gulf war the Saudi's (all figures from Cordesman report from memory) increased size from around 70,000 to 180,000 within short space of time. As the increase had taken place the price of oil had plummeted, instead of firing a lot of soldiers who had just been hired they let skimped on equipment and let them rust and skimped on training which cost money. Since the invasion of Iraq the Oil price has again recovered, and now they are again investing enough in their equipment acquisition and maintenance.

2. Tell me how many millions of south Asians has Austrialia let in on work Visas? Saudi Arabia has let in over three millions South Asians which has changed the destiny of millions who would be rotting in the sewers otherwise. The ill treatment of South Asians comes about because their incompetent governments have been unable to create enough meaningful jobs, beggars cant be choosers.

 

[Ozzy]

1. That was a while back, when changing the size of the military and structure dramatically there are large short term adjustment costs. After gulf war the Saudi's (all figures from Cordesman report from memory) increased size from around 70,000 to 180,000 within short space of time. As the increase had taken place the price of oil had plummeted, instead of firing a lot of soldiers who had just been hired they let skimped on equipment and let them rust and skimped on training which cost money. Since the invasion of Iraq the Oil price has again recovered, and now they are again investing enough in their equipment acquisition and maintenance.

2. Tell me how many millions of south Asians has Austrialia let in on work Visas? Saudi Arabia has let in over three millions South Asians which has changed the destiny of millions who would be rotting in the sewers otherwise. The ill treatment of South Asians comes about because their incompetent governments have been unable to create enough meaningful jobs, beggars cant be choosers.

1. Sorry to dissapoint but the period I'm referring to started in 1989. Well before PGW1. And ended in 1993. The debacle of the Saudi 'special' (as in ride in a short yellow bus) forces recently is evidence enough. We sat laughing at the tv as a yello Interior ministry helo hovered with 'operatives' gingerly crawled off the ramp. Not to mention the outcome of that operation!

True that the Saudis have some excellent fighter pilots, but their army is crap. It suffers from the classic problems of Arabic armies; such as lack of a well trianed NCO cadre, lack of discipline, a huge gape between officers and men, a lack of technical profficiency (they actually hire ex-Pak military people for that). If you think you can show Saudi levels of professionalism from the numerous equipment acquisitions they've undertaken you're slightly mistaken. OOE isnt the first western officer to shake his head at the Saudis, I've seen similar experiences related at sites such as tanknet, 1jma, simhq and more.

2. I had to read this twice. I'm absolutely dumbfounded by your remarks. Have you even lived in that rotten police state that likes to call itself the paragon of Islam? You're actually content to blame the mistreatement of South Asians (versus royal treatment for westerners) on their backgrounds rather than address the fact that many Saudis are racists!! Open your eyes. Better yet, spend a year in Saud. I think I understand why OOE got put off.

 

[Adnan88]

isnt type 98 still a prototype??? from what i remember, type 99 is different from 98... please correct me if im wrong

 

[sigatoka]

1. We sat laughing at the tv as a yello Interior ministry helo hovered with 'operatives' gingerly crawled off the ramp.

2. It suffers from the classic problems of Arabic armies; such as lack of a well trianed NCO cadre, lack of discipline, a huge gape between officers and men, a lack of technical profficiency (they actually hire ex-Pak military people for that).

3. Have you even lived in that rotten police state that likes to call itself the paragon of Islam?

You're actually content to blame the mistreatement of South Asians (versus royal treatment for westerners) on their backgrounds rather than address the fact that many Saudis are racists!!

Better yet, spend a year in Saud.

1. There are many special force operations that have gone wrong.

2. Are you describing Arab armies or the Israeli army in Lebanon?

3. If it is a rotten police state why do millions of South Asians go there for work? Your logic is quite flawed. I dont need to because im not grovelling in poverty like many in South Asia are.

Of course I am, because it is the fact. Westerners if they are not treated well can simply pack their bags and go home to a high salary, South Asians do not have that luxury.

Racism is everywhere, Australia is quite content to throw Afghan refugees in a desert prison and then ship them back home where they die in conflict. To single out Saudi's alone as racist jarrs with reality. Saudi Arabia is also noted to give hundreds of millions of dollars to the poor in South Asia especially Bangladesh, compared to what the U.S. gives relative to their economy (excluding military aid) is quite good. How many billions has the U.S. given to Bangladesh versus Israel which has a higher per capital income than even Saudi?

Again as i said i dont need to.

p.s. Afghanistan and Iraq has proven that the U.S. and a few allies are unable to impose their will when facing opposition. The excuse in Vietnam was that U.S.S.R. and China a superpower and regional power were both supporting the opposition. What excuse does the well trained and well equiped armed forces have in Afghanistan and Iraq?

If the concept of training, discipline and technical profficiency are so important and if you are so sure that Western forces have this while Arabs (in Iraq) and Afghanis dont have this, then why after so many years is fighting raging on?

It suggests one of two things, either the gulf in training, discipline and technical profficiency are not as great between the West and "others" or that training, discipline and technical profficiency are not as important as you suggest.

If the possession of equipment is so inconsequential why then doesnt U.S. forces leave all their planes, tanks and Apache gunships at home and assemble on the battlefield with only rifles and their training, discipline and technical profficiency.

 

[Bull]

OOE, watch the language please. Calling a nation's soldiers 'rascals' doesn't really help the discussion.

So now, I can't judge military matters and call a spade a spade? The good Captain was right. Enjoy your forum. It's damned obvious that this is not a place for military.

Wow,OoE also left!!!Another feather in the cap.

 

[Neo]

Bull,

OoE hasn't actually left PFF definately, he'll be there to share his expertise when we need him.

 

[Ozzy]

1. There are many special force operations that have gone wrong.

Right. So it makes it okay for Saudi 'elite' troops to excute an operation like a bunch of nincompoops.

2. Are you describing Arab armies or the Israeli army in Lebanon?

There is no lack of discipline in the IDF, nor is there any distance between NCOs, officers and men. IDF in Leb this time was unprepared, used the wrong kind of troops for the wrong job, used the wrong tactics. Doesnt make them inept like the Saudis who get a nosebleed everytime they have to carry out battalion level orders.

3. If it is a rotten police state why do millions of South Asians go there for work? Your logic is quite flawed.

Its a simple thing called m-o-n-e-y. Its also why westerners work there. And people from both spectrums have been nabbed and held without charges, tortured, etc. However only the Bakstanis get their heads chopped off after farcial trials facing trumped up charges.

I dont need to because im not grovelling in poverty like many in South Asia are.

Your living standards are the least of my concerns.

The point is you cannot explain the income disparity between a South Asian engineer and a western engineer working in the same country. People are not treated equally on basis of RACE.

Of course I am, because it is the fact. Westerners if they are not treated well can simply pack their bags and go home to a high salary, South Asians do not have that luxury.

Most South Asians in Saud are trades people or professionals. They arent dying of hunger where they come from. Anyway you're one to talk. You've never been whacked by a mutawa's cane, or been harrassed by locals. Until you actually have some experience to talk about something, please refrain from doing so.

Racism is everywhere, Australia is quite content to throw Afghan refugees in a desert prison and then ship them back home where they die in conflict. To single out Saudi's alone as racist jarrs with reality.

Where the friggin hell did refugees come into this. And if you'll beat this dead horse, how about this: how many refs in Saud? None. Do they even grant citizenship to foriegners born there? No. Do you get equal treatment, have rights to haebus corpus? No.

With a visa in Australia, you are not officially differentiated upon RACIAL BASIS. There, comprehensible?

Saudi Arabia is also noted to give hundreds of millions of dollars to the poor in South Asia especially Bangladesh, compared to what the U.S. gives relative to their economy (excluding military aid) is quite good. How many billions has the U.S. given to Bangladesh versus Israel which has a higher per capital income than even Saudi?

Did it occur to you that you might be differentiating state policy from social norm? Or that politics might be involved in the granting of monetary assistance?

Again as i said i dont need to.

Then dont be such a know-it-all if you dont have any concrete evidence nor first hand experience.

What excuse does the well trained and well equiped armed forces have in Afghanistan and Iraq?

Your logic is astounding. Ever bother to look at western kill/death ratios? How long do you think any conventional force can stand up to the yanks?

If the concept of training, discipline and technical profficiency are so important and if you are so sure that Western forces have this while Arabs (in Iraq) and Afghanis dont have this, then why after so many years is fighting raging on?

Because there is enough will in those people to throw bodies at the Westerners.

It suggests one of two things, either the gulf in training, discipline and technical profficiency are not as great between the West and "others" or that training, discipline and technical profficiency are not as important as you suggest.

Riiiiight. Thats why in PGW1, the Twakalna, Medina Republican Guard divisions were cut to shreds by a force almost equal in size?

If the possession of equipment is so inconsequential why then doesnt U.S. forces leave all their planes, tanks and Apache gunships at home and assemble on the battlefield with only rifles and their training, discipline and technical profficiency.

How about this... they kicked the crap out of insurgents in every envoirnment, MOUT, COIN, CQB while taking minimal casualties.

Dont confuse flawed politics with military profficiency. Which by the way, you've been doing throughout this post.

 

[sigatoka]

1. The point is you cannot explain the income disparity between a South Asian engineer and a western engineer working in the same country. People are not treated equally on basis of RACE.

2. You've never been whacked by a mutawa's cane, or been harrassed by locals.

3. Your logic is astounding. Ever bother to look at western kill/death ratios?

4. How long do you think any conventional force can stand up to the yanks?

5. Because there is enough will in those people to throw bodies at the Westerners.

6. How about this... they kicked the crap out of insurgents in every envoirnment, MOUT, COIN, CQB while taking minimal casualties.

1. Its to do with BATNA, in bargaining when you have a high BATNA you will be offered a better deal than when you have a low BATNA. Its the same reason when you get a good job offer you can bargain with you current employers for a pay rise. Your output hasnt changed, but your BATNA has.

2. And you have?

3. Kill/Death ratios are and have been susceptible to including civilians deaths.

4. In the Anbar province specifically and Iraq generally there are many towns and villages that the Coalition forces do not even control. This resembles conventional conflict more closely than it does an Insurgency. In Southern Afghanistan fighting is escalating to something also resembling conventional fighting with hundreds of soldiers from both sides engaging in combat.

5. And vice versa, the conflict has degenerated into a war of attrition. The U.S. has lost all ideas and is hoping it can outbleed its opponents.

6. Minimal?

 

[Bull]

Bull,

OoE hasn't actually left PFF definately, he'll be there to share his expertise when we need him.

If its so, then good.