Akbar's fort symbol of subjugation of Hindus,want the imposing structure to be replaced : VHP

[Fattyacids]

Manchu nomads created an apartheid system in China, even forced everyone to wear Manchu clothing, and hair style at the risk of execution, and you're talking about subjugation?

Epic fail. Manchu weren't nomad, they were vassal who revolted. Two, Manchu continued chinese civil system, language and culture, they claimed Chinese mandate of Heaven. The seal and flag are emblem of Chinese dragon. Emperor wear dragon robe. Hair style and clothing is for uniformity.

Timur to Mughal, didn't adopt or claim Hindu mandate. They simply subjugated them. No parallel at all.

 

[lavenge lavenge]

@Prajapati @SarthakGanguly @DRAY @Water Car Engineer @ashok mourya

I never understood this fascination that some Hindus have with Akbar. He did more damage to Hinduism with his relatively tolerant policies than Aurangzeb with his bigoted one.

For one East Bengal was conqured and brought under Islamic Yoke by Akbar, and this conquest was done by Man SIngh. Had Akbar been intolerant, there would not have been a Man Singh on beck and call of Akbar. He would have been fighting Mughals for survival of his kingdom and Mughals would have been fighting Rajputs, which were much tougher nut to crack and have successfully withstood an ultra bigoted Sultanate regime, and tide has started turning against muslims by 1500. Ibrahim lodhi lost every war he fought with Hindus, including four straight victories over Lodhi by Sisodiya Rajputs. At the time when Babur raided India, Sanga was planning to march on Sultanate Capital of Agra thus wiping out Islamic rule for good.

Before 1600, there were very few Persian word in Hindi. It was stability that Akbar provided with lead to influx of Persian words in Hindi.

Compare this to Aurangzeb, He murdered Sikh Gurus, leading to establishment of Khalsa and laying base for perpetual animosity between Sikhs and Muslims. He destroy temples in Mathura igniting Jat rebellion. His bigotry triggered Rajput rebellion in which all clans except Kachwaha Rajputs. His waging war on marathas and losing it made Marathas what they became. The only harm he cause to Hinduism is that he converted some weak blood Pakistanis ,with perpetual history of being treated as doormat by invaders, to Islam.

There is a discussion on this line going on in a history forum.

What if Dara Shikoh became the Mughal emperor instead of Aurangzeb - Historum - History Forums



On Topic: This fort was constructed by Akbar to tame Naga Sadhus during Kumbh. It was supposed to act as police chowki. Not a symbol of subjugation.


If VHP really want to destroy something, they should destroy Razia mosque in Varanasi. Contrary to popular perception, Kashi Vishwanath temple destroyed by Aurangzeb was not the first or original vishweshwara or Vishwanath temple in Kashi. The Vishwanath temple originally was built by Sena King Visvarupa in 1212. This temple was razed to ground and a mosque constructed in it's place by Razia sultan.

Or they could demolish shrine of Ghazi salar Masud (nephew of Mohd Ghori) which was raised by Firoz tuglaq at the place where Islamic army was defeated nad massacred in Battle of bahraich by Raja Bhoj.

This thread is a treasure trove if some one is intrerested in medieval non-sultanate dynasties.

Gahadvala dynasty - Gangetic plains c.12th century - Historum - History Forums

VHP should employ some historians so that they could know which building was constructed for what purpose. Ranting about unrelated issues undermine genuine ones.

 

[Prajapati]

@Prajapati @SarthakGanguly @DRAY @Water Car Engineer @ashok mourya

I never understood this fascination that some Hindus have with Akbar. He did more damage to Hinduism with his relatively tolerant policies than Aurangzeb with his bigoted one.

For one East Bengal was conqured and brought under Islamic Yoke by Akbar, and this conquest was done by Man SIngh. Had Akbar been intolerant, there would not have been a Man Singh on beck and call of Akbar. He would have been fighting Mughals for survival of his kingdom and Mughals would have been fighting Rajputs, which were much tougher nut to crack and have successfully withstood an ultra bigoted Sultanate regime, and tide has started turning against muslims by 1500. Ibrahim lodhi lost every war he fought with Hindus, including four straight victories over Lodhi by Sisodiya Rajputs. At the time when Babur raided India, Sanga was planning to march on Sultanate Capital of Agra thus wiping out Islamic rule for good.

Before 1600, there were very few Persian word in Hindi. It was stability that Akbar provided with lead to influx of Persian words in Hindi.

Compare this to Aurangzeb, He murdered Sikh Gurus, leading to establishment of Khalsa and laying base for perpetual animosity between Sikhs and Muslims. He destroy temples in Mathura igniting Jat rebellion. His bigotry triggered Rajput rebellion in which all clans except Kachwaha Rajputs. His waging war on marathas and losing it made Marathas what they became. The only harm he cause to Hinduism is that he converted some weak blood Pakistanis ,with perpetual history of being treated as doormat by invaders, to Islam.

There is a discussion on this line going on in a history forum.

What if Dara Shikoh became the Mughal emperor instead of Aurangzeb - Historum - History Forums



On Topic: This fort was constructed by Akbar to tame Naga Sadhus during Kumbh. It was supposed to act as police chowki. Not a symbol of subjugation.


If VHP really want to destroy something, they should destroy Razia mosque in Varanasi. Contrary to popular perception, Kashi Vishwanath temple destroyed by Aurangzeb was not the first or original vishweshwara or Vishwanath temple in Kashi. The Vishwanath temple originally was built by Sena King Visvarupa in 1212. This temple was razed to ground and a mosque constructed in it's place by Razia sultan.

Or they could demolish shrine of Ghazi salar Masud (nephew of Mohd Ghori) which was raised by Firoz tuglaq at the place where Islamic army was defeated nad massacred in Battle of bahraich by Raja Bhoj.

This thread is a treasure trove if some one is intrerested in medieval non-sultanate dynasties.

Gahadvala dynasty - Gangetic plains c.12th century - Historum - History Forums

VHP should employ some historians so that they could know which building was constructed for what purpose. Ranting about unrelated issues undermine genuine ones.

Its Foolish to destroy any Fort, VHP or not.

Thank you for the link. I will look into it.

 

[Water Car Engineer]

Epic Fail. Manchu weren't nomad, they were vassal who revolted. Two, Manchu adopted chinese civil system, language and culture. They claimed Chinese mandate of heaven to continue the Chinese empire legacy. The seal and flag are emblem of Chinese dragon. Emperor wear dragon robe. Hair style and clothing is for uniformity.

Timur to Mughal impose their culture and language on you. No parallel.

No one cares if they adoptable what ever. Timur adopted Islam and Persian culture, but still massacred and subjugated Muslims and Middle Easterners. All of the former Mongols adopted from others afterwards.

These nomadic originated peoples, who are few in number always adopt from a group of people with a older and stronger civilization.

Doesnt change the fact they did set up an apartheid, racist system with Han majority at the lowerest bracket. So dont preach to any Indian about subjugation.

Mughals promoted Persian culture, true. But never the less they were Indians, whether Indians like it or not. To the point they dont even look Central Asian by the time the British took over.

 

[ashok mourya]

Why akbar is not great?
Akbar is considered as the great Mughal emperor who put the Mughal empire on a firm and stable footing, with a reliable revenue system and with expansion of its borders deeper into Indian heartland. There is a belief prevalent in the present day India that Akbar's rule was secular and tolerant of the native Hindu faith. This belief is fostered by the Indian history texts, Hindi movies like Mughal-e-Azam, a TV serial on Doordarshan and the fictional tales of Akbar and his Hindu court jester Birbal. Although Akbar did abolish two obnoxious taxes on Hindus namely the pilgrimage tax in 1563 CE and Jizya (A tax stipulated in the Koran to be paid by Zimmis or unbelievers) in 1564 CE, his rule was better compared ONLY to the other Mughal and Turko-Afgani rules. This article illustrates this with two specific historical events. First, Akbar like all Mughal rulers had the holy Muslim title of GHAZI (SLAYER OF KAFFIR - infidel). Like Timur Lane and Nader Shah, AKBAR HAD A VICTORY TOWER ERECTED WITH THE HEADS OF THE CAPTURED/ SURRENDERED ARMY OF HEMU after the second battle of Panipat. Later, AKBAR AGAIN SLAUGHTERED MORE THAN 30,000 UNARMED CAPTIVE HINDU PEASANTS AFTER THE FALL OF CHITOD ON FEBRUARY 24, 1568.
Akbar killed an unconscious Hemu (a Hindu) to become a 'Ghazi' at the second battle of Panipat, he later ordered slaughter of all the captives from Hemu's army and had a victory tower built with their heads. Similarly, Akbar later on ordered a massacre of 30,000 plus unarmed captive Hindu peasants after the fall of Chitod on February 24, 1568. Are these the characteristics of a truly 'secular' and 'tolerant' emperor ? These events reveal Akbar's true nature during early part of his reign. Should Akbar be called 'Great' and 'Secular' only because he was a lesser despot than the rest of the Mughal emperors ? In the entire Indian history of thousands of years NOT A SINGLE HINDU KING EVER SLAUGHTERED THOUSANDS OF PRISONERS OF WAR. In fact the Hindu virtue of generosity to the surrendered (SharaNaagat Vatsal Bhav), came to haunt them later. Prithvi Raj Chauhan defeated Mohammed Ghori several times and generously let the loser free each time. This generosity of Pritviraj was paid back by Mohammed Ghori who after having finally defeated Prithvi Raj in 1193 CE, blinded him and carried him to Afganistan in chains where Prithvi Raj died an ignominious death. The Mughals were the descendents of brutal Mongol Chengiz Khan and the Turk Timur Lane. The above incidences clearly show that MUGHAL EMPERORS WERE FOREIGN AND NOT INDIAN, AND AKBAR BY HIS ACTIONS WAS NO EXCEPTION. Thus to call Akbar as 'The Great' is nothing but an insult to all civilized societies.

 

[Fattyacids]

No one cares if they adoptable what ever. Timur adopted Islam and Persian culture, but still massacred and subjugated Muslims and Middle Easterners. All of the former Mongols adopted from others afterwards.

These nomadic originated peoples, who are few in number always adopt from a group of people with a older and stronger civilization.

Doesnt change the fact they did set up an apartheid, racist system with Han majority at the lowers bracket. So dont preach to any Indian about subjugation.

Poor reasoning. Manchu continued the Chinese empire legacy, they seized the throne by allying with another Chinese faction during a revolt. Whereas Timur or Mughal simply subjugated Hindu, they never claimed Hindu mandate or adopted Hindu system.

You don't even know what you talk about. Manchu weren't nomad, like Mongol.

Aparthied???? The imperial court is made of Chinese officials, confucian scholars. The language is Chinese. All the provincial governor are Chinese.

 

[lavenge lavenge]

Mughals promoted Persian culture, true. But never the less they were Indians, whether Indians like it or not. To the point they dont even look Central Asian by the time the British took over.

What is your definition of "Indian"?

Did they promoted Indian languages and literature? NO.

They promoted Persian at the expense of local languages to the extent that more Persian literature was composed in India rather than Persia. It was an effective drain of wealth from India where Indian revenue was diverted to support Persians.


Did they promoted Indian architecture?NO.

They promoted Persian architecture. The only reason that Indian Nagara, Dravidian, Kalingan,Gadag,CHalukya architecture survived was because Muslims were never able to lay theit infernal hands on all of India.It was again an effective drain of Indian wealth to Persia.

Did they promoted Indian science and mathematics? NO.

They did not promoted mathematics at all. Muslims after 900AD (due to fatwah of Al-ghizali) considered mathematics heretical. All Indian Mathematicians were Hindus, either from ancieny time or from Kerala school of mathematics, far away from reach of maraduing muslims.

Did they promoted education for Indian masses? NO.

Muslim sacked every university that lay in their path.Burned libraries older than 2500 years and which stood there for 1500 years before Islamic invasion.Muslims during sultanate time acted like a locust plauge that destroy every source of knowledge that lays in it's path.



So again I am asking you, What do you mean by Indian? Is taking birth in territory of republic of India a good enough qualification to be an Indian even if you for all practical purpose, a foreigner?

 

[Water Car Engineer]

Poor reasoning. The point is, Manchu continued the Chinese empire legacy. Timur or Mughal, they subjugated Hindu, they never claim Hindu mandate or adopted Hindu system.

You can't even get your fact right. Manchu were never nomad.

Aparthied? The imperial court is made of Han Chinese officials. All the provincial governor are Chinese.

Every Emperor after Akbar was half Indian. To the point they dont even look Central Asian any more. I dont care what they adopt or not. Were any of the Manchu emperors even intermarried to Han Chinese?

So again I am asking you, What do you mean by Indian? Is taking birth in territory of republic of India a good enough qualification to be an Indian even if you for all practical purpose, a foreigner?

Um, I dont know, every emperor after Akbar being half Indian in origin is being Indian.

Are modern Indians using an ancient Indian form of government? No. Is modern Indians promoting ancient Indian, or Indian architecture? No. Are you teaching mostly western standardized education or ancient Indian ones? So what?

 

[lavenge lavenge]

Poor reasoning. The point is, Manchu continued the Chinese empire legacy. Manchu seized the throne by allying with another Chinese faction during a revolt. Whereas Timur or Mughal simply subjugated Hindu, for they never claimed Hindu mandate or adopted Hindu system.

You don't even know history well. Manchu weren't nomad, like Mongol.

Aparthied???? The imperial court is made of Chinese officials, confucian scholars. The language is Chinese. All the provincial governor are Chinese.

Stop acting like a retard.

Manchu were not Chinese. Nor was Yuan dynasty.

No one except Han dynasty was a proper Chinese dynasty. Argument like they adopted our bureaucracy is not enough.

 

[syedali73]

Did they promoted Indian science and mathematics? NO.

They did not promoted mathematics at all. Muslims after 900AD (due to fatwah of Al-ghizali) considered mathematics heretical. All Indian Mathematicians were Hindus, either from ancieny time or from Kerala school of mathematics, far away from reach of maraduing muslims.

Did they promoted education for Indian masses? NO.

Muslim sacked every university that lay in their path.Burned libraries older than 3500 years and which stood there for 1500 years before Islamic invasion.Muslims during sultanate time acted like a locust plauge that destroy every source of knowledge that lays in it's path.

So all the huge castles, and buildings of Mughal time where made by some alien creatures? As per you, the India of Mughal time was totally illiterate, Universities ransacked, books burnt, maths was declared un-Islamic. As far as my little knowledge is concerned, serious mathematics and geometry is needed for erecting buildings. Hatred is blind I know, but can it bring someone this low, thanks for showing me.

 

[Fattyacids]

Every Emperor after Akbar was half Indian. To the point they dont even look Central Asian any more. I dont care what they adopt or not. Where any of the Manchu emperors even intermarried to Han Chinese?

Um, I dont know, every emperor after Akbar being half Indian in origin is being Indian.

In patriarchal society where men took many wives, that's nothing out of the blue. Hindu rulers allied with Mughals by marrying their daughter. Early Manchu don't, later yes. Bet you don't even know, Manchu are themselves part Chinese.

Don't make absurd argument. Subjugator imposed their system on subjugated people, muslim rulers didn't adopt or continue Hindu legacy. Hence, your attempt to draw a parallel with Manchu Failed.

 

[lavenge lavenge]

So all the huge castles, and buildings of Mughal time where made by some alien creatures? As per you, the India of Mughal time was totally illiterate, Universities ransacked, books burnt, maths was declared un-Islamic. As far as my little knowledge is concerned, serious mathematics and geometry is needed for erecting buildings. Hatred is blind I know, but can it bring someone this low, thanks for showing me.

Mensuration like counting is basic mathematics and a life skill. You do not need to apply much brain in doing it. What Islam banned was abstract mathematics which lead to development of new field of mathematics.

Counting and mensuration is something which was known to even stone age pre-humans.

Here is list of Indian mathematicians for you. Could you point out even a single muslim from this list.

List of Indian mathematicians - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[Fattyacids]

Stop acting like a retard.

Manchu were not Chinese. Nor was Yuan dynasty.

No one except Han dynasty was a proper Chinese dynasty. Argument like they adopted out bureaucracy is not enough.

Learn some history before you speak. Both Yuan and Manchu claimed Chinese mandate of Heaven to rule as Chinese empire. They are not ethnically Han, but the imperial governing system, language and culture remained Han.

All dynasty were led by Han, except the two mentioned above.

 

[Water Car Engineer]

After ruling for 300 yrs in patriarchal society where men took many wives, that's nothing out of the blue. Plus the fact that Hindu rulers allied with Mughals by marrying their daughter. Early Manchu don't, later yes. Bet you don't even know, Manchu are themselves part Chinese.

We are talking the definition of subjugation. Subjugator imposed their system on subjugated people, they do not adopted or continued Hindu legacy. Hence, your attempt to draw a parallel with Manchu failed!

Which emperors were even part Han Chinese? Show me.

Yes, we're talking about subjugation. Where small amounts of Manchurians, who weren't Chinese to begin with took over all of China. It's still a small minority of people controlling a vast amout of people that's not them. I dont care if they took your form of government, etc. I don't care if they claimed mandate of heaven to control the majority Han population.

Ancient Greeks, Central Asians, etc. came into India and converted to Buddhism, Hinduism, etc. and ruled N.W. parts of India. They were considered foreigners, controlling a different people, no different from the Manchurian to Han angle. Only until they lost their rule and mixed in with the population.

 

[syedali73]

Mensuration like counting is basic mathematics and a life skill. You do not need to apply much brain in doing it. What Islam banned was abstract mathematics which lead to development of new field of mathematics.

Counting and mensuration is something which was known to even stone age pre-humans.

Here is list of Indian mathematicians for you. Could you point out even a single muslim from this list.

List of Indian mathematicians - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

I am not an architect but know that architecture is not about Mensuration alone, otherwise every Tom Dick and Harry would be erecting buildings and nobody had to waste 4 long years in architecture/civil engineering degree courses. In the list, I could see several names form Mughal time? Howcome? According to you, all the Universities were ransacked and books burnt? How did the evil illiterate Mughals allowed this Hindu mathematicians to work against the will of God?

Science and Technology in Mughal Empire

Mughal Empire - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia