Contrarian
ELITE MEMBER
- Joined
- Oct 23, 2006
- Messages
- 11,571
- Reaction score
- 4
I doubt we'd need more than 20 Refuellers. Especially if we have something the likes of an A330 MRTT.
Airbus A330 wins IAF Tanker Tender
- Thread starter IND151
- Start date
Skull and Bones
ELITE MEMBER
- Joined
- Jan 29, 2011
- Messages
- 18,601
- Reaction score
- -4
- Country
- Location
By capacity, both A330 and Il-76 are touted at the same level. Doesn't make any difference in the numbers.
sancho
ELITE MEMBER
- Joined
- Feb 5, 2009
- Messages
- 13,011
- Reaction score
- 27
- Country
- Location
A330 MRTT - 111,000 kg
IL 78MKI - 105,700 kg
A400 MRTT - 55,500 kg
KC130J - 27,800 kg
Contrarian
ELITE MEMBER
- Joined
- Oct 23, 2006
- Messages
- 11,571
- Reaction score
- 4
There is a significant difference. In addition to Refueling, A-330MRTT can carry equipment as a transport as well on the same sortie.
Plus it will have a much higher uptime compared to the Il's.
Skull and Bones
ELITE MEMBER
- Joined
- Jan 29, 2011
- Messages
- 18,601
- Reaction score
- -4
- Country
- Location
See, not much difference. Given that how significantly cheaper Il-76 is from A330.
P.S: Now, please don't bring the running and maintenance cost.
sancho
ELITE MEMBER
- Joined
- Feb 5, 2009
- Messages
- 13,011
- Reaction score
- 27
- Country
- Location
See, not much difference. Given that how significantly cheaper Il-76 is from A330.
P.S: Now, please don't bring the running and maintenance cost.
True, not much difference for the tanker role (except of the missing boom refuelling capability), but that's the point! The IL 78 MKI is a pure tanker and can't be used for anything else. The MP version that PAF has, can partially be used for transport as well, but only when the last fuel tank is removed.
The A330 is a Multi Role Transport Tanker, it can carry the full fuel load + up to 45t of cargo (that equals 1 x IL 78 + 1 IL 76) or 380 passengers and can be used in MEDIVAC roles as well.
So it is more capable as a tanker, can be used in several other roles AND is more cost-effective!
Abingdonboy
ELITE MEMBER
- Joined
- Jun 4, 2010
- Messages
- 29,597
- Reaction score
- 46
- Country
- Location
Exactly- procuring the A330 MRTT will not only add aerial refuelling capacity to the IAF but also airlift capacity which the MIDAS simply wouldn't do. As such when deploying for , say, Red Flag- the IAF only need take 1 A330 with them (and maybe another Il-76/C-17) instead of 2 IL-76s and an IL-78 like they did last time in '08. The pros of the A330 way, WAY outway any cons- which may just be initial unit costs (even though life cycle costs are cheaper). If the MoF can look beyond their own noses this time around and the IAF makes a compelling case then HOORAY for the A330 and the IAF. And the great thing is any follow on orders will not be subject to this intense scrutiny and will sail through.True, not much difference for the tanker role (except of the missing boom refuelling capability), but that's the point! The IL 78 MKI is a pure tanker and can't be used for anything else. The MP version that PAF has, can partially be used for transport as well, but only when the last fuel tank is removed.
The A330 is a Multi Role Transport Tanker, it can carry the full fuel load + up to 45t of cargo (that equals 1 x IL 78 + 1 IL 76) or 380 passengers and can be used in MEDIVAC roles as well.
So it is more capable as a tanker, can be used in several other roles AND is more cost-effective!
And like I said, at at a time when the IAF is already dramatically increasing its total airlift capacity the A330 will just do so even more!
Abingdonboy
ELITE MEMBER
- Joined
- Jun 4, 2010
- Messages
- 29,597
- Reaction score
- 46
- Country
- Location
Additionally, like Sancho said- the A330 can be configured with boom refuelling (to service the C-17s and P-8s) on the centreline with drouge refuelling systems on the wings- I believe the French and Singaporean AFs have this configuration for their AARs. Meaning the A330 can refuel the entire fleet of the IAF and IN. And an A330 order for the IAF should ease the way for a simlar order by the IN down the road as has been stipulated by them.
KS
ELITE MEMBER
- Joined
- Apr 1, 2010
- Messages
- 12,528
- Reaction score
- 0
- Country
- Location
"Admiral Gorskov"
The experience is resulted in to the Relations..............................
Wrong analogy.
The reason due to the Gorshkov fiasco was that after the breakup of the Soviet Union, many critical naval engineering plants were in Ukraine which was not in good terms with Moscow. Also our officials did NOT look much into the Gorshkov offer before saying ok. They probably went by the dictum of not looking for the teeth of the gift horse. That boomeranged on us.
AFA I ve heard there has been absolutely no problem with the after sales/spare part support for either the Il76 or Il 78.
Abingdonboy
ELITE MEMBER
- Joined
- Jun 4, 2010
- Messages
- 29,597
- Reaction score
- 46
- Country
- Location
This simply isn't true- you should read some of CAG reports- they are scathing of Russian after sales support and the ridiculously high AOG time for Russian origin a/c. Now this has been rectified to a significant degree with the MKI,Mil-17s,MIG-29UPG and A-50 but the IL-76/8 still has a pretty poor main tends record and a sloppy spares support program. This is a fact.
KS
ELITE MEMBER
- Joined
- Apr 1, 2010
- Messages
- 12,528
- Reaction score
- 0
- Country
- Location
Maybee I missed that part. Some links would hellp.
Abingdonboy
ELITE MEMBER
- Joined
- Jun 4, 2010
- Messages
- 29,597
- Reaction score
- 46
- Country
- Location
I'm on my phone right now so I can't give you many links but this one is worth reading as it pretty much sums up the KAF's frustrations and may give an insight into the mindset within the IAF brass to Russian origin equipment:
Delays in Russian spares force India to go shopping worldwide | StratPost
But it should be noted that in for the Mig-29UPG/Ks and A-50s the Russians have taken significant steps to improve spares support and there are spare facilities being set up all over India. Additionally for all new deals like the FGFA, MTA and MKIs the Spares won't be an issue as India will produce all spare parts and will build the a/c in India. Russia has had to massively up its game now that they don't have a monopoly on India's defence market and they know spares have been a particular sour note for the IAF for a long time.
arp2041
BANNED
- Joined
- Apr 4, 2012
- Messages
- 10,406
- Reaction score
- -9
- Country
- Location
Losing further ground: Airbus pips Il-78MKI in Indian tanker tender
Russian companies continue to get outbid by American and European competitors in tenders for aircraft supplies to India.
The Russian Il-78MKI lost the tender for the supply of six aerial tankers worth $1 billion to India, which selected the European Airbus A330 as the preferred vendor, citing its lower operational costs. This is not the first Indian tender to be lost by Russian manufacturers in recent months.
The base price of the Russian Il-78 tanker was quoted as lower than that of the A330, but when factoring in maintenance and fuel costs, the A330 seemed to have better value, an Indian Ministry of Defence official said.
After America’s Boeing withdrew from the competition in 2010, it was a face-off between the Il-78 and the A330. EADS, Lockheed Martin and Ukrainian aircraft builder Antonov could have competed for the tender, but Antonov did not qualify and Lockheed Martin chose not to participate.
Tests of the Il-78MKI and A330MRTT were completed by India in early 2012. The country’s military has repeatedly complained about inconsistent deliveries of spare parts for the Il-78MKI.
The Indian Air Force is using six Il-78 mid-air refuelling systems and plans to buy 12 additional tankers, which includes the six from Airbus. Sources at the Indian Ministry of Defence said it has not yet been decided whether a fresh tender will be opened for the remaining six tankers or whether a repeat order will be given to Airbus.
The current tender is itself a rebid of a 2009 tender, in which the Il-78 competed against the A330. The European tanker was preferred then as well, but the country’s Finance Ministry blocked the deal, saying the A330 was too expensive.
The new A330 tankers will be deployed in Panagarh. In addition to lower fuel costs, the Airbus tanker is optimised for high-altitude flight and is equipped with advanced digital avionics.
This is not the first time that Russia has been outbid by its competitors in tenders for aircraft supplies to India. The MiG-35 fighter jet lost out in the tender to supply 126 combat aircraft, the Mi-28N failed to win the attack helicopter tender and the Mi-26T2 lost to the Boeing’s Chinook CH-47F in the tender for the delivery of 15 heavy lift helicopters. The Russian-made helicopters proved to be more expensive than those made in the US.
“India is making efforts to diversify its imports, placing large orders with various suppliers in order not to depend on a single country. And the previous contracts were good for Russia. India has been actively buying the upgraded Su-37, for example. Further, India plans to create a fifth-generation fighter together with Russia. We have also signed a number of contracts with India for the supply of Mi-17 helicopters,” says Igor Korotchenko, head of the Centre for Analysis of World Arms Trade.
The Il-78 is used in many countries, and there have been no complaints so far. “We are currently observing a growing demand for this airplane. Russia will be able to supply this machine to customers who bought our Sukhoi airplanes. Also, Russia may start supplying upgrades of its Il-476 refuelling system,” he said.
Its technical characteristics were not the main reason why the Indian military gave up on the Il-78, says Vadim Kozyulin, director of the Conventional Arms Programme at the Centre for Policy Studies in Russia. “Military and technical cooperation between Russia and India is going through a difficult phase,” he explains. “India’s political elite currently favours closer ties with the United States and the EU.”
“My estimate is that the Il-78 must be about 30 percent cheaper than the A330. The maintenance costs are roughly the same. When it comes to fuel costs, Russian planes are indeed less economical, but this has never been a problem for foreign Air Forces,” Kozyulin told Vzglyad.
Losing further ground: Airbus pips <br>Il-78MKI in Indian tanker tender | Russia & India Report
Russian companies continue to get outbid by American and European competitors in tenders for aircraft supplies to India.
The Russian Il-78MKI lost the tender for the supply of six aerial tankers worth $1 billion to India, which selected the European Airbus A330 as the preferred vendor, citing its lower operational costs. This is not the first Indian tender to be lost by Russian manufacturers in recent months.
The base price of the Russian Il-78 tanker was quoted as lower than that of the A330, but when factoring in maintenance and fuel costs, the A330 seemed to have better value, an Indian Ministry of Defence official said.
After America’s Boeing withdrew from the competition in 2010, it was a face-off between the Il-78 and the A330. EADS, Lockheed Martin and Ukrainian aircraft builder Antonov could have competed for the tender, but Antonov did not qualify and Lockheed Martin chose not to participate.
Tests of the Il-78MKI and A330MRTT were completed by India in early 2012. The country’s military has repeatedly complained about inconsistent deliveries of spare parts for the Il-78MKI.
The Indian Air Force is using six Il-78 mid-air refuelling systems and plans to buy 12 additional tankers, which includes the six from Airbus. Sources at the Indian Ministry of Defence said it has not yet been decided whether a fresh tender will be opened for the remaining six tankers or whether a repeat order will be given to Airbus.
The current tender is itself a rebid of a 2009 tender, in which the Il-78 competed against the A330. The European tanker was preferred then as well, but the country’s Finance Ministry blocked the deal, saying the A330 was too expensive.
The new A330 tankers will be deployed in Panagarh. In addition to lower fuel costs, the Airbus tanker is optimised for high-altitude flight and is equipped with advanced digital avionics.
This is not the first time that Russia has been outbid by its competitors in tenders for aircraft supplies to India. The MiG-35 fighter jet lost out in the tender to supply 126 combat aircraft, the Mi-28N failed to win the attack helicopter tender and the Mi-26T2 lost to the Boeing’s Chinook CH-47F in the tender for the delivery of 15 heavy lift helicopters. The Russian-made helicopters proved to be more expensive than those made in the US.
“India is making efforts to diversify its imports, placing large orders with various suppliers in order not to depend on a single country. And the previous contracts were good for Russia. India has been actively buying the upgraded Su-37, for example. Further, India plans to create a fifth-generation fighter together with Russia. We have also signed a number of contracts with India for the supply of Mi-17 helicopters,” says Igor Korotchenko, head of the Centre for Analysis of World Arms Trade.
The Il-78 is used in many countries, and there have been no complaints so far. “We are currently observing a growing demand for this airplane. Russia will be able to supply this machine to customers who bought our Sukhoi airplanes. Also, Russia may start supplying upgrades of its Il-476 refuelling system,” he said.
Its technical characteristics were not the main reason why the Indian military gave up on the Il-78, says Vadim Kozyulin, director of the Conventional Arms Programme at the Centre for Policy Studies in Russia. “Military and technical cooperation between Russia and India is going through a difficult phase,” he explains. “India’s political elite currently favours closer ties with the United States and the EU.”
“My estimate is that the Il-78 must be about 30 percent cheaper than the A330. The maintenance costs are roughly the same. When it comes to fuel costs, Russian planes are indeed less economical, but this has never been a problem for foreign Air Forces,” Kozyulin told Vzglyad.
Losing further ground: Airbus pips <br>Il-78MKI in Indian tanker tender | Russia & India Report
kurup
ELITE MEMBER
- Joined
- Jun 10, 2012
- Messages
- 10,563
- Reaction score
- -2
- Country
- Location
India Needs to Fast-Track Purchase of Aerial Refuelers
When India first ordered 6 Il-78MKI From Russia, IAF had very small Sukhoi fleet and around 50 Mirages which were able to carry out Mid-air refuelling, but over last few year’s Sukhoi-30s are nearing 200 in fleet and Upgraded Mig-29SMT along with Rafale’s to be inducted soon with aerial refuelling probes, will only add Aircrafts which will be aerial refuelling capable but where are additional aerial refuelers?.
Il-78 and Airbus 330 MRTT are competing for the $1 billion global tender floated in 2006 by the Indian defence ministry for six refuelers. First time it was put down by finance ministry and again it seems Airbus might have won the deal , But it can be turned down again if finance ministry sticks to its earlier decisions.
Growing fleet of Aircrafts with Aerial refuelling capability and lack of additional Aerial Refuelers means Squadrons with this aircrafts needs to be rationed for Pilot training in art of aerial refuelling. Current Il-78MKI due to hectic training schedule is putting in alot of hours in air, and slow spare supply from Russia is not helping the cause.
India needs to make a decision fast on purchase of aerial refuelers to avoid backlog of pilots with limited exposure on aerial refuelling in their training. Additional Aerial refuelers will also give other aircrafts like AWACS (Phalcons and DRDO developed AWACS), C-130 and C-17 much needed range and mission objectives in war and peace.
India Needs to Fast-Track Purchase of Aerial Refuelers | idrw.org
When India first ordered 6 Il-78MKI From Russia, IAF had very small Sukhoi fleet and around 50 Mirages which were able to carry out Mid-air refuelling, but over last few year’s Sukhoi-30s are nearing 200 in fleet and Upgraded Mig-29SMT along with Rafale’s to be inducted soon with aerial refuelling probes, will only add Aircrafts which will be aerial refuelling capable but where are additional aerial refuelers?.
Il-78 and Airbus 330 MRTT are competing for the $1 billion global tender floated in 2006 by the Indian defence ministry for six refuelers. First time it was put down by finance ministry and again it seems Airbus might have won the deal , But it can be turned down again if finance ministry sticks to its earlier decisions.
Growing fleet of Aircrafts with Aerial refuelling capability and lack of additional Aerial Refuelers means Squadrons with this aircrafts needs to be rationed for Pilot training in art of aerial refuelling. Current Il-78MKI due to hectic training schedule is putting in alot of hours in air, and slow spare supply from Russia is not helping the cause.
India needs to make a decision fast on purchase of aerial refuelers to avoid backlog of pilots with limited exposure on aerial refuelling in their training. Additional Aerial refuelers will also give other aircrafts like AWACS (Phalcons and DRDO developed AWACS), C-130 and C-17 much needed range and mission objectives in war and peace.
India Needs to Fast-Track Purchase of Aerial Refuelers | idrw.org
Similar threads
