Air Martial Tahir Rafique Butt New ACM

[Edevelop]

I concur Pakistan mein bohat seh maslaeen hain and we need to get our own house in order before we can help the Kashmiris but I wonder whether with all the water issues increasing each successive year we can afford to put the Kashmir issue on the back burner.

The issue was so simple to solve!!!!!!
Before partition we should have taken over Indian Punjab. If we took 3/4th then what was so hard about 1/4th
Your water issue is solved and so is Kashmir!

 

[A1Kaid]

these days Kashmir is more peaceful and secure working well under india then our pakistan sir kindly open your eyes .pakistan is brink of end first bring back on track our own country then think abut kashmir .

Of course Pakistan has to strengthen itself before it can handle the Kashmir issue more forcefully and Kashmiris encourage that. Pakistan has to be stronger but under no circumstance should Pakistan downgrade or abandon Kashmir.

 

[Imran Khan]

I concur Pakistan mein bohat seh maslaeen hain and we need to get our own house in order before we can help the Kashmiris but I wonder whether with all the water issues increasing each successive year we can afford to put the Kashmir issue on the back burner.

we have time in hands dear we are facing floods again and again its mean no shortage of water .in fact we are on mission of damage pakistan more and more very day rather then mission to save pakistan . if we bring back pakistan on track then we have better position to talk on water issue otherwise we will lose more . we have no short of water we have shortage of planing

 

[Armstrong]

IK said "we should leave Kashmir for the next generation to decide...." By the time we delay, Kashmiris will forget everything and India will do some much development that they will forget.

While i earlier mentioned Musharraf, Zia, Ayub, Yahya as the ones who missed the golden opportunity, i must also add that Bhuttos were too in the same boat.

My ancestors first started the Kashmiri movement, JKLF. They hijacked an Indian plane and landed in Lahore. Bhutto thought they were RAW agents and he hanged 2 of them in Pakistan and 1 was sent to India, who was similarly hanged.
Just last week, a person by the name Ashraf Qureshi (a person who was also in the movement and one of our close friends) died. He won a case in the court against getting hanged and he spent rest of his life teaching in Punjab University. No one in Pakistan ever wanted to know how much he sacrificed.

The JKLF is a Liberation movement that wants to rid Kashmir of both Pakistan and India how can your ancestors and by extension you live and breath in Pakistan, walks the streets of Pakistan freely with your freedom and dignity intact as a Kashmiri and still support a movement like that.
Pakistan has sacrificed so much for Kashmir. Pakistan has lost the opportunity to have peace with India and all the benefits that come with it, she has voiced solidarity with the Kashmiris on every International forum at her own expense, she has lost opportunity over opportunity because of unwavering support to the Kashmir cause and some people from Kashmir would want Independence instead of Secession to Pakistan. Well then let those ungrateful wretches struggle for it themselves because Pakistan is better off focusing on her own people instead.

 

[Edevelop]

The JKLF is a Liberation movement that wants to rid Kashmir of both Pakistan and India how can your ancestors and by extension you live and breath in Pakistan, walks the streets of Pakistan freely with your freedom and dignity intact as a Kashmiri and still support a movement like that.
Pakistan has sacrificed so much for Kashmir. Pakistan has lost the opportunity to have peace with India and all the benefits that come with it, she has voiced solidarity with the Kashmiris on every International forum at her own expense, she has lost opportunity over opportunity because of unwavering support to the Kashmir cause and some people from Kashmir would want Independence instead of Secession to Pakistan. Well then let those ungrateful wretches struggle for it themselves because Pakistan is better off focusing on her own people instead.

Well they tried their best to have it Pakistan's way. Thanks to Bhutto no more of that.
JKLF has no option but force people to become independent now. It is better off than living in India.
Pakistanis are begharat and they can't even control themselves. Realistically there was and is still no leader out there that supports them.

Perhaps you didn't read my post. Some of my ancestors were hanged. That is not walking freely in Pakistan... Like you as an individual are not realizing the contribution of hijacking and sacrificing lives, then i can't trust other Pakistans. They are the same as you.

The best thing to do right now is support them, at least not in India's way!
We are selling our part to China just to bring you new news!

 

[Rana4pak]

self delete

 

[Edevelop]

A lot of you assume that peace with India can be made by resolving Kashmir.
The fact is, if you have experienced hindu/Indian race in your life then you know their games.
India's problem with us is not Kashmir. Its Pakistan's existence!!!!!
So forget about peace and just move on.

 

[Armstrong]

Well they tried their best to have it Pakistan's way. Thanks to Bhutto no more of that.
JKLF has no option but force people to become independent now. It is better off than living in India.
Pakistanis are begharat and they can't even control themselves. Realistically there was and is still no leader out there that supports them.

Perhaps you didn't read my post. Some of my ancestors were hanged. That is not walking freely in Pakistan... Like you as an individual are not realizing the contribution of hijacking and sacrificing lives, then i can't trust other Pakistans. They are the same as you.

The best thing to do right now is support them, at least not in India's way!
We are selling our part to China just to bring you new news!

The Pakistanis have suffered themselves we don't say for nothing that our first and only leader died in '48. But by God Jinnah's Pakistan is worth every drop of blood that we can sacrifice and Iqbal - my Kashmir Punjabi ancestor - taught me the value of not creating a nation on the basis of something as finite as language or ethnicity but rather to go for unity in a collective consciousness or Islam as we call it. Yes Pakistan has regressed...yes Pakistan hasn't achieved an iota of what it was supposed to be but if Pakistanis and in my and your case - Pakistani Kashmiris - are going to give up on the Motherland and go on creating ethnicity or language based states our problems which have remained unsolved would only be compounded further.

I could swallow that the people from Kashmir may also hold a different opinion on the Kashmir outcome but for a Kashmiri in Pakistan talking about something like this - I can't. Mein or tum Pakistan ki waja seh kuch hain, mujh paar jo ihsanat hain Pakistan aur Jinnah sahib keh mein unhain kabhi nahin jhoka sakta - how can you then talk about independence as a Kashmiri living in Pakistan.

 

[Edevelop]

The Pakistanis have suffered themselves we don't say for nothing that our first and only leader died in '48. But by God Jinnah's Pakistan is worth every drop of blood that we can sacrifice and Iqbal - my Kashmir Punjabi ancestor - taught me the value of not creating a nation on the basis of something as finite as language or ethnicity but rather to go for unity in a collective consciousness or Islam as we call it. Yes Pakistan has regressed...yes Pakistan hasn't achieved an iota of what it was supposed to be but if Pakistanis and in my and your case - Pakistani Kashmiris - are going to give up on the Motherland and go on creating ethnicity or language based states our problems which have remained unsolved would only be compounded further.

I could swallow that the people from Kashmir may also hold a different opinion on the Kashmir outcome but for a Kashmiri in Pakistan talking about something like this - I can't. Mein or tum Pakistan ki waja seh kuch hain, mujh paar jo ihsanat hain Pakistan aur Jinnah sahib keh mein unhain kabhi nahin jhoka sakta - how can you then talk about independence as a Kashmiri living in Pakistan.

Hey you might be related to me. We are Butt and we are related to Iqbal!

Btw, i'm not living in Pakistan. I can say whatever i want. I do consider myself Pakistani but i don't like our people. Almost more than half of my ancestors live outside. Some of them even served as good honest citizens but when you have begharat choir lotaray around you then you have the right to speak for yourself.

I disagree with your language theory. When every state has its own language, then you are NOT destroying your culture. If i impose something, then i would keep the different languages spoken in each state and plus add farsi (the language taught to us before partition) on national official level.
Urdu language is artificial. Most of us have nothing to do with India and nor we were taught to be like them. We are only pleasing the real urdu speakers who we look upon to control us. Ever thought why everything is based in Karachi? Sorry to say, but we are dependent on one group of people who have not lived in Pakistan for more than 40-60 years.

When each state has its own language, then it should keep everyone happy. This is called true unity.
You should read how Bangladesh splitted. Bangalis wanted their language. Urdu was being taught in Bangali schools.
I mentioned once in a thread, that Punjabis hold the majority of the population. It is their duty to take the leadership...
Unfortunatly, they are lazy and have an inferiority complex.

 

[blain2]

Isn't it a pre-req to have a F-16 hours as well, and I heard that he is a qualified F-16 pilot. He flew with COAS just last week also proves that.

The CAS did not fly the CoAS. They both flew in separate aircraft with pilots from the No. 5 sqn in the front seats.

---------- Post added at 06:49 PM ---------- Previous post was at 06:47 PM ----------

A lot of you assume that peace with India can be made by resolving Kashmir.
The fact is, if you have experienced hindu/Indian race in your life then you know their games.
India's problem with us is not Kashmir. Its Pakistan's existence!!!!!
So forget about peace and just move on.

With such absolutist positions we are not going anywhere. The Hindus or for that matter anyone can say the very same about us. Point is that there has to be a give and take and a realization that everyone is insaan ka baccha and as such certain things are common across people. Build on that, otherwise we will stay where we have been for ever.

Just my humble thoughts. In any case I am off topic too, so lets get back to discussing the new CAS.

 

[Rana4pak]

Hey you might be related to me. We are Butt and we are related to Iqbal!

Btw, i'm not living in Pakistan. I can say whatever i want. I do consider myself Pakistani but i don't like our people. Almost more than half of my ancestors live outside. Some of them even served as good honest citizens but when you have begharat choir lotaray around you then you have the right to speak for yourself.

I disagree with your language theory. When every state has its own language, then you are NOT destroying your culture. If i impose something, then i would keep the different languages spoken in each state and plus add farsi (the language taught to us before partition) on national official level.
Urdu language is artificial. Most of us have nothing to do with India and nor we were taught to be like them. We are only pleasing the real urdu speakers who we look upon to control us. Ever thought why everything is based in Karachi? Sorry to say, but we are dependent on one group of people who have not lived in Pakistan for more than 40-60 years.

When each state has its own language, then it should keep everyone happy.
You should read how Bangladesh splitted. Bangalis wanted their language. Urdu was being taught in Bangali schools.
I mentioned once in a thread, that Punjabis hold the majority of the population. It is their duty to take the leadership...
Unfortunatly, they are lazy and have an inferiority complex.

dude may b u r rite we r in majority but we r ready to scrifice our strength in favour of pakistan ..and abt inferiority complex our ancestor never told us to show ur courage on our own ppl but we show our inferiority complex in wars. the real punjabis r rajputs .jutts and gujjar and these ppl now how to kick any body @ss in any where in the world

 

[Edevelop]

dude may b u r rite we r in majority but we r ready to scrifice our strength in favour of pakistan ..and abt inferiority complex our ancestor never told us to show ur courage on our own ppl but we show oue inferiority complex in wars. the real punjabis r rajputs .jutts and gujjar and these ppl now how u kick any body @ss in any where in the world

Off course when it comes to war, we unite.
A lot of Pakistanis like us argue that we won the 65 war and our Air Force is better then India. In fact, someone from our side here said that 20 or 30 PAF warplanes downed 100+ IAF jets.

But after all the chest thumping, i still can't forget what an Indian said in reply.
He said "WHAT DID YOU ACHIEVE AFTER ALL YOUR STRENGHTS AGAINST INDIA. My heart beat stopped at once......
What he said in one line was reality!

 

[Armstrong]

Hey you might be related to me. We are Butt and we are related to Iqbal!

Btw, i'm not living in Pakistan. I can say whatever i want. I do consider myself Pakistani but i don't like our people. Almost more than half of my ancestors live outside. Some of them even served as good honest citizens but when you have begharat choir lotaray around you then you have the right to speak for yourself.

I disagree with your language theory. When every state has its own language, then you are NOT destroying your culture. If i impose something, then i would keep the different languages spoken in each state and plus add farsi (the language taught to us before partition) on national official level.
Urdu language is artificial. Most of us have nothing to do with India and nor we were taught to be like them. We are only pleasing the real urdu speakers who we look upon to control us. Ever thought why everything is based in Karachi? Sorry to say, but we are dependent on one group of people who have not lived in Pakistan for more than 40-60 years.

When each state has its own language, then it should keep everyone happy. This is called true unity.
You should read how Bangladesh splitted. Bangalis wanted their language. Urdu was being taught in Bangali schools.
I mentioned once in a thread, that Punjabis hold the majority of the population. It is their duty to take the leadership...
Unfortunatly, they are lazy and have an inferiority complex.

No I'm not related to Iqbal, I mentioned that in more of an encompassing way to impress upon you where I stand on Kashmiriyat, Punjabiyat and Language, seeing that Iqbal was a Kashmiri who lived in Punjab and loved the Urdu language. But if you are truly related to Iqbal I'm not sure that he'd look to favorably upon the JKLF who doesn't advocate a state where unity is based upon the collective consciousness of the masses (Islam in other words) but rather on ethnicity or language; to quote him from his 'Nationalism - as a political concept' :

Guftaar-e-siyasaat mein watan aur hee kuch hai - Irshad-e-naboowat mein watan aur hee kuch hai.

"Nationalism or Nationhood in political parlance is very different from the Islamic notion of nationhood"

The rest of your post reeks of bigotry when you talk about being dependent on that one group who have not lived in Pakistan for more than 40-60 years. They are our brothers...one of us. Period.

Stay in Canada my Kashmiri brother...the rest of us - home or abroad - who feel some ownership towards Pakistan aren't going to miss you.

 

[SBD-3]

he is right . situation here is really messed up . we are deep in problems .our whole country is on risk .how the hell we can dream abut kashmir now a days ? when our whole country is burning ? no economy no jobs no power no law no peace no investment no development no forex reserves no education no health no unity nothing we have today and we still sit on kashmir and make this issue hot? its mean we lose our brains simply sir jee.

Well, tell me of an era when we had all this? did we ever had 80% litracy rate? did we ever had 20% of budget spent upon health and anything? Pakistan's demographic are very diverse and the sense of unity will take considerable time. The problem with us is that we are extremely impatient. Nations takes centuries to develop and realize themselves. Kashmir is the basic issue between Pakistan and India. And where on earth Indian Occupied Kashmir is far more peaceful than Pakistan? History says that Nations develop from worse. Look at Germans, Japanese. These people were far more worse than where we stand today. We started our journey with nothing in hand, no industry, no resources, a multiethic group. All the problems you see today were created by the Zia band. We were pushed in a mess, no doubt, but we embraced it (which we could have avoided). Nations have to go through the test of time to become a part of history. You should be appriciative that at least things dont go under the mat these days. The Choice is ours, all these currupt politicians that we yell at, only make their way to parliment because we either elect them or dont stop them. If Pakistan forgoes the rightful issue of Kashmir, then whats the point in maintain military modernization at all. The problem with us is that we eagerly yell at the mess but at the same time keep the responsibles as our avatars, we are hypocryts....

 

[Edevelop]

@ Armstrong:

Your views on some people as 'brothers' of 'Islam' is ridiculous.
There is no country in the world today that stands out on both ends of the political spectrum as 'extremists' and as 'liberalists'
On a serious note, there are those who claim to be sons of Prophet Muhammed (peace be upon him), and those who claim to be masters of secularity.
This is no humour, but an immature posture.

For those who claim to be on the right hand of the spectrum usually have to bring the Muslim 'Ummah'. Though touchy for some, it is seen to have dismantled Pakistan into pieces. Militants such as Taliban, Al-Qaeda, Pakistan Tehreek e Taliban, Haqqani, BLP, have all seen to be supported by some members of our population and are representatives of the 'Ummah'. We stand clear that the whole world has come upon to hate us. Many of you don't know this, but Arabs have a huge part. We work in their countries and we don't get paid. To change the public scienerio, they would come up to give us material at the wrong time and way. The question here is not which of the two is best, but rather, the question of whether we should convince them to join us in the ummah efforts?

I ask not only you but also the rest of Pakistanis, to leave this drama aside, and use actions than words to improve our country. No one is going to be pleased with our efforts. They will be pleased when we achieve their goals... God knows what they are.

I don't know why you keep target JKLF. Wheather you like it or not, they are the ones trying to keep their movement alive. This is not about what is right or wrong. No one in this world can be one of the two. As a Kashmiri, we both should be glad about the fact that they hate India.

This is very typical in Pakistan, where people come and judge leaders on moral perfection. One must realize there has been no leader perfect to Pakistan. Iqbal was just as symbol of pride for the nation. His poetry and his personal life are absolutely two different things, like comparing apples with oranges.
Iqbal loving Urdu or not, it was his personal view. We have people who have Western complexity and they will prefer English thantheir own. The point is, favorism keeps on effecting our society. You have shown no interest in your own blood, but rather the skin of other race.

Those people i point out that have not lived for more than 40-60 years is a fact. They are the same people that use the word 'tuggay' against Punjabis and the some ones who have killed more than a million in Sindh. Favorism can sometimes come along with 'Begharti' I dearly hope to see good muslim brothers but theoretically, the 'ummah' theology has failed and has become artificial.

This is a good analogy to remember. Antiques (thousands of years ago) will NEVER become boring. They have a value up to infinite years. i.e Punjabi, Sindhi, Pashto, languages. Contemporary (modern change) on the other hand has a limit. Its value is temporary and more designs are needed to full fill better aesthetics for the future. i.e Urdu.
The point here is, history and culture of the past scrutinizes true Pakistan

P= Punjab
A= Afghania (Pashtun)
K= Kashmir
I= nothing
S= Sindh
TAN= BalochisTAN

*This is the only focus to nationalism....