Air Force Question Thread

[Luftwaffe]

 

[fatman17]

Turning the Old Into New

Vendors should be helping cash-strapped air forces upgrade aircraft, writes former Pakistani Air Commodore Azfar A Khan.

Date: 30 Nov 2009

In recent times a number of nations such as Israel, South Africa and Pakistan have carried out large-scale programmes to upgrade aircraft, and by doing so have avoided the high expense - on average a new fighter plane costs about $50m - that comes with replacement.

There are several ways an upgrade can be made cheaper for air forces around the world – something for all technology vendors to keep in mind.

If the upgrade is done locally, for example, the cost for the end user can be brought down. Manpower is another issue – keeping installation and the manufacture of items in-house will make an upgrade proposition more valuable not only in terms of cost but also because exposing defence teams to new technology reduces training and upkeep costs.

From Australia to Pakistan

In the 1990s, the Pakistan Air Force purchased 42 Mirage-IIIs from Australia and discarded the avionics systems, replacing them with a new state-of-the-art system that boosted performance and efficiency. These aircraft were upgraded at the Pakistan Aeronautical Complex (PAC) at Kamra by local factory Kamra Avionics and Radar Factory (KARF).

"By upgrading an existing fleet it is, to a great extent, possible to attain the performance and efficiency of new aircraft."The upgrade was carried out in collaboration with French company Sagem, which provided expertise and most of the equipment. The avionics package included an inertial navigation system, head-up display, an airborne video tape recording system, communication systems, computers, data bus, IFF, user interface and self-protection systems such as Radar Warning Receiver (RWR), and a chaff and flares dispenser.

These systems have been growing in complexity, and their importance has been heightened as the technology has advanced. Modern airborne radar, Grifo-M, was also retrofitted.

Extensive planning was required for the project, called Retrofit of Strike Element (ROSE), to work. A project team was formed to oversee it, and regular review meetings were held alternatively in Pakistan and France, where problems were brought up and solved.

The factory engineers and technicians were actively involved in the upgrade, and some parts were manufactured and quality-checked at the PAC factories. Only the avionics systems were upgraded, not the entire aircraft, which brought further cost savings.

Once the upgrade for the first aircraft was complete, Pakistan Air Force test pilots flight-tested all the new equipment and validated its performance. The new technology installed proved a resounding success. By going through this process, the local engineers and technicians of the Pakistan Air Force acquired experience and gained confidence to undertake any similar project with confidence in future, while the Mirage received new capabilities that improving its performance in battle dramatically. This exercise also saved Pakistan's cash-strapped air force a huge amount of foreign exchange.

As good as new

By upgrading an air force's existing fleet it is, to a great extent, possible to attain the performance and efficiency of new aircraft. Another benefit is that the pilots and the ground crew need only be trained on those systems that are being upgraded as the remaining systems remain the same. It also means that upgrades are carried out as they become affordable. As such, upgrading is an option vendors should also be careful to consider when proposing technologies to forces around the world.

Air Force Technology

 

[sur]

Is there any videos and photos of PAF practicing landing/takeoffs on M-2 Motorway???

 

[F86 Saber]

Can someone please post a picture of an air craft properly labled for the understanding of a novice like me (For example, as i have learned here that the two fin like things under the canopy of the Euro fighter are called canards) ?? If such a pic has already been posted please guide me to it.....

Also is there a specific thread or post having the full version of the most commonly used abbreviations like AESA (Active Electronically Scanned Array) or AMRAAM(Advanced Medium-Range Air-to-Air Missile)?

 

[hassan1]

http://img705.imageshack.us/i/mirrageonmotorwayl.jpg/

 

[Wingman]

FT7, landing on motorway......

 

[Wingman]

Can someone please post a picture of an air craft properly labled for the understanding of a novice like me (For example, as i have learned here that the two fin like things under the canopy of the Euro fighter are called canards) ?? If such a pic has already been posted please guide me to it.....

Also is there a specific thread or post having the full version of the most commonly used abbreviations like AESA (Active Electronically Scanned Array) or AMRAAM(Advanced Medium-Range Air-to-Air Missile)?

This will help you out

http://www.eu-digest.com/uploaded_images/eurofighter-launching-long-range-missile-769701.jpg

 

[DANGER-ZONE]

http://img705.imageshack.us/i/mirrageonmotorwayl.jpg/

DAMN

 

[DANGER-ZONE]

although PAF using the most advance version of MIRAGE-3 family.
if the designer of first ever mirage some how could see PAF mirage's cockpit,he might die by hart attack.even it looks more beautiful then mirage-2000h.
but my question is
"PAF mirage-5 is installed with FLIR device under cockpit for night vision.but can these mirage-3/5 load LGBs with FLIR-pod under belly and four bombs on jettisonable fuel tank"
thanks in advance for accurate reply.
regards

 

[TaimiKhan]

although PAF using the most advance version of MIRAGE-3 family.
if the designer of first ever mirage some how could see PAF mirage's cockpit,he might die by hart attack.even it looks more beautiful then mirage-2000h.
but my question is
"PAF mirage-5 is installed with FLIR device under cockpit for night vision.but can these mirage-3/5 load LGBs with FLIR-pod under belly and four bombs on jettisonable fuel tank"
thanks in advance for accurate reply.
regards

Yes it can take LGBs with the FLIR Pod and do attack. PAF Mirages have been doing PGM strikes in the current operation in tribal areas.

But the load of the missiles would be as per the weapon load carrying capacity of the Mirage. Without fuel tanks, it can easily take any kind of bombs on its hard points, but as said, the overall weight of the bombs should not exceed the total weight capacity.

But with a full weapon load without fuel tanks, the radius of the aircraft gets reduced unless it can refuel in the air, as with full weapon load the aircraft needs a lot of power to take off and a lot of fuel is spent in that process.

But its doable.

 

[TaimiKhan]

 

[DANGER-ZONE]

@taimikhan
plz look at these pictures.

ECM pod under bally,and bombs under fuel tank.

Ground attack armament consists normally of two 30 mm DEFA 552A guns in fuselage, each with 125 rounds of incendiary, high-explosive or armour-piercing ammunition, and two 454 kg (1,000 lb) bombs, or an AS 30 air-to-surface missile under the fuselage and 454 kg (1,000 lb) bombs under the wings. Total external load, on five hardpoints 4,000 kg (8,818 lb). Alternative underwing stores include combined tank/bomb carriers, each with 500 litres (132 US gallons; 110 Imp gallons ) of fuel and 907 kg (2,000 lb) of bombs; JL-100 pods, each with 250 litres (66 US gallons; 55 Imp gallons) of fuel and 18 rockets; jettisonable underwing fuel tanks. For interception duties, one Matra R.530 air-to-air missile can be carried under fuselage, with optional guns and two Matra Magic missiles.

now the orange Mirage shows that belly hard point posses electronic linking or weapon loading,so it can also be attached with FLIR targeting pod.
and special fuel tanks can also be loaded with 4 or 2 GBU-12 weighing 2000 lbs or 1000lb total respectively.

 

[niaz]

Turning the Old Into New

Vendors should be helping cash-strapped air forces upgrade aircraft, writes former Pakistani Air Commodore Azfar A Khan.

Date: 30 Nov 2009

In recent times a number of nations such as Israel, South Africa and Pakistan have carried out large-scale programmes to upgrade aircraft, and by doing so have avoided the high expense - on average a new fighter plane costs about $50m - that comes with replacement.

There are several ways an upgrade can be made cheaper for air forces around the world – something for all technology vendors to keep in mind.

If the upgrade is done locally, for example, the cost for the end user can be brought down. Manpower is another issue – keeping installation and the manufacture of items in-house will make an upgrade proposition more valuable not only in terms of cost but also because exposing defence teams to new technology reduces training and upkeep costs.

From Australia to Pakistan

In the 1990s, the Pakistan Air Force purchased 42 Mirage-IIIs from Australia and discarded the avionics systems, replacing them with a new state-of-the-art system that boosted performance and efficiency. These aircraft were upgraded at the Pakistan Aeronautical Complex (PAC) at Kamra by local factory Kamra Avionics and Radar Factory (KARF).

"By upgrading an existing fleet it is, to a great extent, possible to attain the performance and efficiency of new aircraft."The upgrade was carried out in collaboration with French company Sagem, which provided expertise and most of the equipment. The avionics package included an inertial navigation system, head-up display, an airborne video tape recording system, communication systems, computers, data bus, IFF, user interface and self-protection systems such as Radar Warning Receiver (RWR), and a chaff and flares dispenser.

These systems have been growing in complexity, and their importance has been heightened as the technology has advanced. Modern airborne radar, Grifo-M, was also retrofitted.

Extensive planning was required for the project, called Retrofit of Strike Element (ROSE), to work. A project team was formed to oversee it, and regular review meetings were held alternatively in Pakistan and France, where problems were brought up and solved.

The factory engineers and technicians were actively involved in the upgrade, and some parts were manufactured and quality-checked at the PAC factories. Only the avionics systems were upgraded, not the entire aircraft, which brought further cost savings.

Once the upgrade for the first aircraft was complete, Pakistan Air Force test pilots flight-tested all the new equipment and validated its performance. The new technology installed proved a resounding success. By going through this process, the local engineers and technicians of the Pakistan Air Force acquired experience and gained confidence to undertake any similar project with confidence in future, while the Mirage received new capabilities that improving its performance in battle dramatically. This exercise also saved Pakistan's cash-strapped air force a huge amount of foreign exchange.

As good as new

By upgrading an air force's existing fleet it is, to a great extent, possible to attain the performance and efficiency of new aircraft. Another benefit is that the pilots and the ground crew need only be trained on those systems that are being upgraded as the remaining systems remain the same. It also means that upgrades are carried out as they become affordable. As such, upgrading is an option vendors should also be careful to consider when proposing technologies to forces around the world.

Air Force Technology

Presume that upgrade of the Mirages or any other aircraft also includes complete rebuild/ structural overhaul as well. This would involve replacing all parts /panels reaching end of their structural life. If this is not the case than the article above does not present a true picture.

A brand new aircraft is good for 20 years. It is debatable whether
‘Avoinics’ upgrade without increasing total flight hours would be cost effective. Higher operating cost of an old aircraft over a much shorter life span may not be worth it.

 

[DANGER-ZONE]

Found this F-7 with CFT concept.

 

[Xtremeownage]

How much would needed to be invested if Pakistan decided to make a completely indigenous aircraft?

Also, what aspects of the plane do we have complete indigenous capabilities, and which aspects of the plane (ie. Engine making/designing) do we need advances in?