Air Defence of Pakistan

[JK!]

From recent conflicts the prelude to any ground campaign is the air campaign.
Furthermore from the recent conflict in Afghanistan the only edge the West has against the militants is their ability to call in airstrikes.

From what I have gathered Pakistan has an excellent low level capabilty with Anza series of SAM and RBS 70 systems coupled with Giraffe Radar. We also have a large amount of AAA ranging from 14.5mm ZPU to 57mm calibre guns.

However, during the Falklands conflict in 1982 when a UK harrier was shot down by a 35mm GDF system the Royal Navy aircraft countered the threat by flying out of the range of such weapons.

Pakistan appears to have a limited high altitude capability based on the chinese version of the Russsian SA 2 Guidline SAM.

let us consider the threat of the Indian Air force in any campaign, Indian strategic missiles and PERHAPS the seriousness of the alleged US threat to bomb Pakistan back to the stone age.

What active steps is pakistan taking to improve air defence at all levels and what other viable options are available to Pakistan?

 

[Keysersoze]

Ok you have to include the following AN/TPS-77 radar YLC-2 3D and YLC-6 2D.radars There was the rumours regarding the VERA system from Czech. Also the Crotale system that is in use now.which has a number of options to replace it it in the near future including MBDA Spada 2000,MBDA SAMP-T,IRIS-T SL,IRIS-T SLS

In the future it might include the patriot 3 and the SL-AMRAAM also they are looking at the HQ-9/FT-2000 from China.

 

[JK!]

Ok you have to include the following AN/TPS-77 radar YLC-2 3D and YLC-6 2D.radars There was the rumours regarding the VERA system from Czech. Also the Crotale system that is in use now.which has a number of options to replace it it in the near future including MBDA Spada 2000,MBDA SAMP-T,IRIS-T SL,IRIS-T SLS

In the future it might include the patriot 3 and the SL-AMRAAM also they are looking at the HQ-9/FT-2000 from China.

These are mostly missile based systems and Pakistan has large quantities of AAA.

Will these missile systems be a replacement for them as well?

I have also read that in 1990 Iraq was regarded as having one of the best integrated Air defence networks in the world.
Also in the Russian armed forces an entire corps as a seperate insitution is devoted to air defence.

Who handles Pakistani Air defence?

 

[Contrarian]

I have also read that in 1990 Iraq was regarded as having one of the best integrated Air defence networks in the world.

No, it had the densest air defense network in the world, but it wasnt the best.

 

[niaz]

With Arab money and European help ( Mainly French) during the Iran Iraq war, Iraq had installed a vey good air defence network. But the quality is only relative. It was very good against a country such as Iran or even Pakistan. However against any countery with sufficient technical superiority it was a 'do-do'. Israel bombed the Osirac reactor with impunity and US Wild Weasels blinded it totally.

 

[Adux]

With Arab money and European help ( Mainly French) during the Iran Iraq war, Iraq had installed a vey good air defence network. But the quality is only relative. It was very good against a country such as Iran or even Pakistan. However against any countery with sufficient technical superiority it was a 'do-do'. Israel bombed the Osirac reactor with impunity and US Wild Weasels blinded it totally.

Niaz,

Every Iraqi SAM was jammed by the NATO forces, French gave them the codes. It was a very talked about matter.

 

[JK!]

With Arab money and European help ( Mainly French) during the Iran Iraq war, Iraq had installed a vey good air defence network. But the quality is only relative. It was very good against a country such as Iran or even Pakistan. However against any countery with sufficient technical superiority it was a 'do-do'. Israel bombed the Osirac reactor with impunity and US Wild Weasels blinded it totally.

Yeah I just quoted an Official from the Pentagon from my CNN first Gulf war guide.

The systems were all integrated by Thompson CSF of France and included many foreign systems from most of the worlds leading suppliers like Russia and china.

The Guide mentions that one of the first missions by Apaches in that war was taking out Iraqi radars using Hellfire missiles.

 

[JK!]

Ok you have to include the following AN/TPS-77 radar YLC-2 3D and YLC-6 2D.radars There was the rumours regarding the VERA system from Czech. Also the Crotale system that is in use now.which has a number of options to replace it it in the near future including MBDA Spada 2000,MBDA SAMP-T,IRIS-T SL,IRIS-T SLS

In the future it might include the patriot 3 and the SL-AMRAAM also they are looking at the HQ-9/FT-2000 from China.

Given India's obvious air superiority capability can Pakistan achieve a credible deterrent in its Anti Aircraft capability?

I am of the opinion that if they get an aircraft we get the ability to shoot it down.

 

[Keysersoze]

Given India's obvious air superiority capability can Pakistan achieve a credible deterrent in its Anti Aircraft capability?

I am of the opinion that if they get an aircraft we get the ability to shoot it down.

By obvious I suppose you mean greater numbers? (I think I have covered this in detail on other threads)
Actually there is a relatively high density of ADF in PAK with the only shortfall being the high altititude area.(which is being addressed) There are a large number of Radar guided guns GDF etc (plus reports of more being purchased.) In addition to the missiles plus the AWACS capability.
The best defence against a plane is another plane anyway......

 

[Keysersoze]

Yeah I just quoted an Official from the Pentagon from my CNN first Gulf war guide.

The systems were all integrated by Thompson CSF of France and included many foreign systems from most of the worlds leading suppliers like Russia and china.

The Guide mentions that one of the first missions by Apaches in that war was taking out Iraqi radars using Hellfire missiles.

The Apaches (alongside stealth aircraft ) took out the forward radar facilities. Thus it completely opened up the Iraqi Airspace. After Which The Iraqi's couldn't use any radars because of HARM missile type attacks. The Iraqi defence was no where as good as it was touted.

 

[Adux]

By obvious I suppose you mean greater numbers? (I think I have covered this in detail on other threads)
Actually there is a relatively high density of ADF in PAK with the only shortfall being the high altititude area.(which is being addressed) There are a large number of Radar guided guns GDF etc (plus reports of more being purchased.) In addition to the missiles plus the AWACS capability.
The best defence against a plane is another plane anyway......

Dear Keys,

Greater as well as Technological more advanced. And I agree with JK, Its not a plane for a plane, esp when you have a cheaper option available and more probability of a shootdown, SAMS.

Whatever Pakistan is buying India has them in a better Tech, Compare Phalcon to the Erieye ; so on and So forth.

 

[sigatoka]

These are mostly missile based systems and Pakistan has large quantities of AAA.

Will these missile systems be a replacement for them as well?

I have also read that in 1990 Iraq was regarded as having one of the best integrated Air defence networks in the world.
Also in the Russian armed forces an entire corps as a seperate insitution is devoted to air defence.

Who handles Pakistani Air defence?

The poor performance of the Iraqi army in gulf war was exacerbated by the fact that the airdefence capability was concentrated in Bagdad city which made very little difference to the troops deployed in Kuwait, the major theatre for combat which was a strategic mistake. Secondly most of the "densest" airdefence was in the form of non-computer assisted targetting by crews of men firing twin cannon units most of which were not self propelled and thus open to hammering from the air.

The talk that the only retort to the airpower of the opponent is planes of one's own is not wholly correct. Self propelled SAM's and computer guided guns such as Shilka's with ground troops armed with shoulder launched heat seeking missiles have proven to be very effective time and again in combat whether in Iraq today or Afghanistan or the Kosovo conflict where most of Serbia's airforce played only a marginal role because of degradation of airfields with tomahawk's and stealth bombers.

Pakistan shouldnt just go the route of acquiring more expensive aircraft to counter India's growing air power when other options should be considered such as more shoulder launched missile systems, self propelled SAM's and guns along with greater mechanisation of the ground forces which gives much greater protection from airthreats and also allows ground forces to build enough momentum to smash through enemy defences such that opponents air capability is rendered ineffective. The point I am driving is while India gets more planes what if Pakistan acquires more capable airdefence capability that can move with ground forces with more advanced tanks and greater self propelled artillery capability (made possible by freeing of funds not given to acquiring more jets) that has much greater chance of punching holes in Indian lines in the Punjab sector.

The overall point is that a nation like U.S. has so much resources it can afford to get all the artillery and tanks it needs to destroy opponents and still have enough for an extremely capable airforce which can be used with far fewer casualities, a nation like Pakistan operating on a far tighter budget constraint must explore options that nations like U.S. simply dont need to consider.

 

[JK!]

Let us consider what options are the most suitable to meet Pakistani defensive needs

If we consider China as a source of weapons the the artillary and SAM section of www.sinodefence.com under land systems sections has lots of goodies.

Considering a Western approach then the SAM section of army technology at http://www.army-technology.com/projects/#Air_Defence_Missile_Systems is useful.

 

[Contrarian]

I would suggest some S-400's for Pakistan then. Its the best right now, takes care of incomming missiles along with planes. Then some quick reaction, low to medium level sams to complement it. Since i know of only one, the SPYDER, thats what i would say, i dunno what better is there.

But the S-400 is the way to go.

 

[Adux]

I would suggest some S-400's for Pakistan then. Its the best right now, takes care of incomming missiles along with planes. Then some quick reaction, low to medium level sams to complement it. Since i know of only one, the SPYDER, thats what i would say, i dunno what better is there.

But the S-400 is the way to go.

FT-2000 and various western sources are available for Pakistan, Russian unfortiunatly for them is not available. There is no hope in hell of Pakistani's ever getting their hands on S-400s. PAC-3 is a definite for them.