Air chief witnesses live missile firing of JF-17 Thunder

[araz]

Since Americans are using their drones to hit Pakistani territory, while not trespassing into Pakistani airspace, using the long range hellfire missile, this is in effect a warning to them, that we can shootdown their drones inside Afghan airspace, while flying well within Pakistani airspace.

It may be construed as a warning to them by us. However, they know that as long as they dont incur intoPak territory sufficiently for the wreckage to fallinside Pakistan we cannot fire on them, they will keep doing it. Unfortunately there is no way around it short of dialogue and good diplomacy. We are a small nation and no amount of balls is going to help us in the international arena, if we act unwisely in defiance of international norms. Thgis is why you have all the pictures of IAF fighters in PAF sights but no wreckage on the ground.
A

 

[Taimoor Khan]

It may be construed as a warning to them by us. However, they know that as long as they dont incur intoPak territory sufficiently for the wreckage to fallinside Pakistan we cannot fire on them, they will keep doing it. Unfortunately there is no way around it short of dialogue and good diplomacy. We are a small nation and no amount of balls is going to help us in the international arena, if we act unwisely in defiance of international norms. Thgis is why you have all the pictures of IAF fighters in PAF sights but no wreckage on the ground.
A

By which law it is allowed to America to fire the missiles on Pakistani soil albeit from Afghan airspace? That act in itself negate any norm you are talking about. Its an act of aggression and must be responded.

 

[CriticalThought]

It may be construed as a warning to them by us. However, they know that as long as they dont incur intoPak territory sufficiently for the wreckage to fallinside Pakistan we cannot fire on them, they will keep doing it. Unfortunately there is no way around it short of dialogue and good diplomacy. We are a small nation and no amount of balls is going to help us in the international arena, if we act unwisely in defiance of international norms. Thgis is why you have all the pictures of IAF fighters in PAF sights but no wreckage on the ground.
A

FACT: America has instigated turmoil in many Muslim countries from Africa to middle east.

LOGICAL DEDUCTION: America will continue on its anti-Islam ambition. A big part of this ambition is to destroy nuclear armed Pakistan.

Now, you can keep shouting 'friendship' from the rooftops, the fact of the matter is that they are your enemies. Given that the enemy will definitely attack, you have two options: let the enemy attack at his own prerogative, or take the fight to the enemy.

Taking the fight to the enemy means taking risk, but the reward is correspondingly higher. I have always said this: if the intention is to quietly give up when the battle finally comes home, then declare Pakistan America's 51st state today. Abdicate everything, and let them do whatever they want to us. If not, then are you waiting for the enemy to attack you when he finds it most advantageous? What ARE you waiting for? You need to stand up to the enemy otherwise you will keep being a laughing stock in the world.

 

[araz]

FACT: America has instigated turmoil in many Muslim countries from Africa to middle east.

LOGICAL DEDUCTION: America will continue on its anti-Islam ambition. A big part of this ambition is to destroy nuclear armed Pakistan.

Now, you can keep shouting 'friendship' from the rooftops, the fact of the matter is that they are your enemies. Given that the enemy will definitely attack, you have two options: let the enemy attack at his own prerogative, or take the fight to the enemy.

Taking the fight to the enemy means taking risk, but the reward is correspondingly higher. I have always said this: if the intention is to quietly give up when the battle finally comes home, then declare Pakistan America's 51st state today. Abdicate everything, and let them do whatever they want to us. If not, then are you waiting for the enemy to attack you when he finds it most advantageous? What ARE you waiting for? You need to stand up to the enemy otherwise you will keep being a laughing stock in the world.

Bhai.
Did you not stop to think that those possibilites would have been thought of before putting finger on to the board? I am well aware of the grand designs and have been following the unfolding events since the first Afghan war in 1977.
So let us put this fact vs fiction debate to one side. I do not want to go into too much details here as open fora are not the place for such talk.
One can take on a confrontation and to some extent choose the timing and extent of it. The timing for such a misadventure is not now and will not be there for another 15 to20 years. Play your cards right and you may never need to go down the route of frank confrontation. Do something foolish and hand over all the advantage to the enemy. Fact remains you cannot in your current state tackle the US military might for another 20 years. It seems logical to keep your profile low while you develop. Also ensure you have involved enough local interest in your plight to have some support on the international arena. For this to happen you need to play the game strictly by the book which you have done even with India in the 90s and the 00s.
There are many parameters that you need to develop into most important being financial. Also remember interests can diversify fairly soon and friends of today can become enemies tomorrow. So this game needs a lot of cool thinking and a defensive approach. International law will give you a moral high ground which can not be challanged, even thogh facts can be distorted. To give you an example where do you see China responding to the US aggressive posturing with similar aggressive maneouvres. Yet they are responding. I am sorry I cannot be more explicit here.
A

By which law it is allowed to America to fire the missiles on Pakistani soil albeit from Afghan airspace? That act in itself negate any norm you are talking about. Its an act of aggression and must be responded.

Bhai.
I understand the angst in your arguments. The rules for big boys are different from the rules for little boys. This is why inspite of 2 hours elapsing there was little or no response in the Salala incident. But the moral victory gained allowed a price to be extracted. There are intricacies in international norms which become difficult to be explained in open fora but needless to say we have to date not played that game well. We need to be a bit more street wise. Attacking a US Platform will arouse unnecessary response which is exactly what you want to avoid for now and your enemies would love you to do. Remember there are other ways of cooling angry hearts and Pakistan has cooled its heart when wronged.
A

 

[Taimoor Khan]

Bhai.
I understand the angst in your arguments. The rules for big boys are different from the rules for little boys. This is why inspite of 2 hours elapsing there was little or no response in the Salala incident. But the moral victory gained allowed a price to be extracted. There are intricacies in international norms which become difficult to be explained in open fora but needless to say we have to date not played that game well. We need to be a bit more street wise. Attacking a US Platform will arouse unnecessary response which is exactly what you want to avoid for now and your enemies would love you to do. Remember there are other ways of cooling angry hearts and Pakistan has cooled its heart when wronged.
A

If you except American drones firing their missiles on Pakistani soil from Afghan airspace, next they are going to try their luck with cruise missiles.

Nip the evil in the bud.

 

[GriffinsRule]

By which law it is allowed to America to fire the missiles on Pakistani soil albeit from Afghan airspace? That act in itself negate any norm you are talking about. Its an act of aggression and must be responded.

The law that states might is right?

 

[ziaulislam]

i always believed that govt can easily stop drones attacks if it wants to..you never saw american droning iran, even when tali leader entered from iran to pakistan when he was droned?

current bad relationships is due to aid not flowing to influential people

 

[araz]

If you except American drones firing their missiles on Pakistani soil from Afghan airspace, next they are going to try their luck with cruise missiles.

Nip the evil in the bud.

Let me quote a historical fact. The muslims were not ALLOWED to retaliate against the Kuffar in Mecca till such time that the Quran gave them express instructions to wage war in 2nd year of Hijrah after the state of Madinah was formed. All Iam trying to say is that even though it hurts, one needs to be patient and work towards a situation where you will be in a position to respond. You currently are just not ready for this response, and a silly aggressive move in this regards will upset all the state of Pakistan has quietly but expeditiously put in place. Dont take on a war before you can afford to take one on.
There will always be a ceiling beyongd which one would need to respond, but this ceiling has not been breeched and so one should be patient and find a political and diplomatic solution.
A

i always believed that govt can easily stop drones attacks if it wants to..you never saw american droning iran, even when tali leader entered from iran to pakistan when he was droned?

current bad relationships is due to aid not flowing to influential people

Iran is a totally different story. Believe me when i say there will be no attack on Iran barring the token one here or there, inspite of the belligerent stance of both Israel and USA. It is not because Iran is so strong , but the reasons are different.
A

 

[MastanKhan]

i always believed that govt can easily stop drones attacks if it wants to..you never saw american droning iran, even when tali leader entered from iran to pakistan when he was droned?

current bad relationships is due to aid not flowing to influential people

Hi,

You are missing Iran's geography---. It can sink an oil tanker in the narrow point of the strait and block all the ship traffic coming in or going out---.

 

[Peaceful Civilian]

with KLJ-7A it's detection range goes above 170 km with ability to track stealth jets.

This is very impressive range, Having 100+ BVR fighters it will add good punch.

 

[Adam WANG SHANGHAI MEGA]

Very glad that China and Pakistan bros work together to export air crafts!

 

[Dazzler]

Well defective is a very strong word that I used as hyperbole, but watered down is a reality that everyone knows. How much watered down is a question that can only be answered by performing real experiments because word of mouth and manuals can be trusted only so much.

The product is properly inspected before induction. If any shortcomings are found, it is sent back to the seller to address the issue. The f-16 has had no such issues and is found to be of excellent quality by PAF as well as other customers.

Else, 24 airforces would'nt be operating it as their premium front line fighter.

The target was meant to simulate a near stealth cruise missile having minimum radar signature. Spotting this using a mechanical scanned radar, let alone locking it, must be quite a feat. We know for a fact that spotting a cruise missile is still difficult for conventional SAM missiles and marketing brochures mention them separately. Thats how difficult they can be to search,track and engage.

S-200 drone has an RCS of just 1.

Interestingly, the klj-7V2 had little if any difficulty spotting and tracking the very low RCS target, neither the sd-10A seeker missed it at any stage, as the video shows.

This suggests that the klj-7V2 and sd-10A combo will work well even against targets having low RCS.

So, the test had verified that LO targets will not escape the jf-17.

 

[CriticalThought]

The product is properly inspected before induction. If any shortcomings are found, it is sent back to the seller to address the issue. The f-16 has had no such issues and is found to be of excellent quality by PAF as well as other customers.

Else, 24 airforces would'nt be operating it as their premium front line fighter.

The target was meant to simulate a near stealth cruise missile having minimum radar signature. Spotting this using a mechanical scanned radar, let alone locking it, must be quite a feat. We know for a fact that spotting a cruise missile is still difficult for conventional SAM missiles and marketing brochures mention them separately. Thats how difficult they can be to search,track and engage.

S-200 drone has an RCS of just 1.

Interestingly, the klj-7V2 had little if any difficulty spotting and tracking the very low RCS target, neither the sd-10A seeker missed it at any stage, as the video shows.

This suggests that the klj-7V2 and sd-10A combo will work well even against targets having low RCS.

View attachment 508156

View attachment 508157
So, the test had verified that LO targets will not escape the jf-17.

We know that PAF pilots are restricted from flying Turkey's NATO F-16. Obviously, there is something they would rather not have us knowing. And if they are smart enough to place such restrictions, they are smart enough to hold back sensitive tech from Turkey as well. It's not about what they give us, it is about what they hold back. Thus, if a PAF F-16 or even a Turkish F-16 is unable to detect something, we cannot conclude that an American/NATO/Israeli F-16 won't be able to detect it either. This is what I was trying to convey in the comment you quoted.

I have no doubt about the Thunder's abilities. It has already bloodied its claws against that Iranian drone. IR kill using PL5 from a kilometre away against a mere drone. That is truly impressive. But remember in an actual war, there will be radar jamming and decoys. And the jammer could very well be out of the range of SD-10. And the performance of PL-5 will depend on how much resistant it is to chaff and flares.

But if China/Pakistan can create this tech, then let's not forget that India is getting technology from Israel. I don't expect it to be a walk in the park for either side in an actual war. PAF will need to remain alert and utilize cunning, deviousness, and cleverness to outsmart the Indians.

By the way, in general, the capabilities of SAMs are necessarily limited as compared to airborne platforms. Airborne radars on fighter jets and AEWACS have the height advantage. That said, I am quite sure SPD must be testing Babur and Raad to see if they can be detected by the various radars we have. I really hope the public pictures we see are completely different from the actual missiles they wield.

Finally, I would like to say that in terms of offensive air-to-air capability, Alhamdulillah PAF is very evenly matched today. The Rafale might tilt the balance again with SPECTRA etc. but we have Block 3 plus another off-the-shelf purchase for that. What is really disconcerting is India's SAM coverage. If they link their SAMs to AEWACS and other aerial platforms and bring the SAMs to the border, things will become pretty difficult for PAF. And if they pair this with saturation strikes against our own air defence infrastructure and FOBs, it will severely cut down our response. We need a meaningful SAM coverage to be able to defend against a saturation strike, and we need high velocity (at least supersonic, ideally hypersonic or rail guns when available) counter strike options to quickly take out Indian targets. The high velocity should make most of India's multi-layer air defence completely ineffective.

The winner of the next war will be determined by effectiveness and timeliness of the attack and counter-attack. Quick, and accurate strike to cause maximum damage in minimum time should be the philosophy. The Indians are working towards this with Brahmos. We have unfortunately limited ourselves to sub-sonic. One good aspect is that we have sub-sonic totally covered. So with this groundwork, we can move on to supersonic and hypersonic. Sub-sonic isn't irrelevant, but it needs to be paired with super/hyper-sonic options. Let's see if SPD can give us a pleasant surprise.

Also, I have found it intriguing that our top brass has been busy visiting Europe after the announcement of Indian procurement of S-400. General Bajwa visited London and Italy. Then one of our generals is now in the NATA headquarters. It is obvious that any escalation to our already diverse missile program will need to take Europe, and by proxy Israel, into confidence so they understand we don't have any hostile intentions towards them. IF these visits are successful, we should see multiple tests of Ababeel at the very least.

 

[jamal18]

It's convenient to point fingers but.....
Wonder where were those balls when these Predators were taking off from our back yards.

Love that one!

 

[Sinnerman108]

We know that PAF pilots are restricted from flying Turkey's NATO F-16. Obviously, there is something they would rather not have us knowing. And if they are smart enough to place such restrictions, they are smart enough to hold back sensitive tech from Turkey as well. It's not about what they give us, it is about what they hold back. Thus, if a PAF F-16 or even a Turkish F-16 is unable to detect something, we cannot conclude that an American/NATO/Israeli F-16 won't be able to detect it either. This is what I was trying to convey in the comment you quoted.

I have no doubt about the Thunder's abilities. It has already bloodied its claws against that Iranian drone. IR kill using PL5 from a kilometre away against a mere drone. That is truly impressive. But remember in an actual war, there will be radar jamming and decoys. And the jammer could very well be out of the range of SD-10. And the performance of PL-5 will depend on how much resistant it is to chaff and flares.

But if China/Pakistan can create this tech, then let's not forget that India is getting technology from Israel. I don't expect it to be a walk in the park for either side in an actual war. PAF will need to remain alert and utilize cunning, deviousness, and cleverness to outsmart the Indians.

By the way, in general, the capabilities of SAMs are necessarily limited as compared to airborne platforms. Airborne radars on fighter jets and AEWACS have the height advantage. That said, I am quite sure SPD must be testing Babur and Raad to see if they can be detected by the various radars we have. I really hope the public pictures we see are completely different from the actual missiles they wield.

Finally, I would like to say that in terms of offensive air-to-air capability, Alhamdulillah PAF is very evenly matched today. The Rafale might tilt the balance again with SPECTRA etc. but we have Block 3 plus another off-the-shelf purchase for that. What is really disconcerting is India's SAM coverage. If they link their SAMs to AEWACS and other aerial platforms and bring the SAMs to the border, things will become pretty difficult for PAF. And if they pair this with saturation strikes against our own air defence infrastructure and FOBs, it will severely cut down our response. We need a meaningful SAM coverage to be able to defend against a saturation strike, and we need high velocity (at least supersonic, ideally hypersonic or rail guns when available) counter strike options to quickly take out Indian targets. The high velocity should make most of India's multi-layer air defence completely ineffective.

The winner of the next war will be determined by effectiveness and timeliness of the attack and counter-attack. Quick, and accurate strike to cause maximum damage in minimum time should be the philosophy. The Indians are working towards this with Brahmos. We have unfortunately limited ourselves to sub-sonic. One good aspect is that we have sub-sonic totally covered. So with this groundwork, we can move on to supersonic and hypersonic. Sub-sonic isn't irrelevant, but it needs to be paired with super/hyper-sonic options. Let's see if SPD can give us a pleasant surprise.

Also, I have found it intriguing that our top brass has been busy visiting Europe after the announcement of Indian procurement of S-400. General Bajwa visited London and Italy. Then one of our generals is now in the NATA headquarters. It is obvious that any escalation to our already diverse missile program will need to take Europe, and by proxy Israel, into confidence so they understand we don't have any hostile intentions towards them. IF these visits are successful, we should see multiple tests of Ababeel at the very least.

Digital terrain contour mapping !