Ahmadis: The lightning rod that attracts the most hatred

[Thor]

actually, it's misguided religious zeal and intolerance which could destroy Pakistan and ruin the social/moral fabric....the liberal fascist types are just the opposite side of the same coin

You point of view, not theirs and THAT is what maters, what is their point of view as they will re-act the way they see it not YOU. However ewho will destroy Pakistan doesn't make a difference as each side will blame one another for it.

and they hope to achieve ''Shariah'' by doing this:

Oh please............. there are black sheep in EVERY community, and Islam has many.......... I am sure I can bring along photos of women and children blown up by Pakistani F-16s and US drones, so lets not dig that hole shall we........ Wonder if you will reply the same if bombs went off in your household killing members of your family, then I wish to see your response......

those questioning his vision can not be called patriotic Pakistanis......that is treason

TREASON........... that is the kind of attitude which is today having the effect it is......... Not one person today can say exactly what his vision ever was.......as counter points have always shown he also wanted an Islamic State, and gues what, just to burst your bubble, and Islamic State has Islamic Laws and an Islamic way of living........not hard now is it.....

And anyways, Jinnah does not own Pakistan, we are not his followers but followers of Rasoolallah (AW) and we follow his ways.....

in fairness to the ''liberals'' --at least they dont use bombs with ball-bearings and shrapnel to spread their message

As above again they just use Missiles, rockets, mortars, snipers and grenades to kill the women and children..........

 

[Solomon2]

Mohammed Ali Jinnah was not a one man show and even now his vision is in dispute -

Is this the context you are referring to, Thor?

In 1944, at a press conference in Srinagar, Kashmir, Mr. Jinnah gave his view on the issue of whether Ahmadis ought to be expelled from certain Muslim organisations. An Ahmadi journalist who was present, Mr. Abdul Aziz Shura, editor Roshni, has made a sworn statement, dated 15 January 1988, about the proceedings of this conference. We quote from this below:

"I, Abdul Aziz Shura, known as Aziz Kashmiri, editor of the daily Roshni, Srinagar, Kashmir, make the following declaration under oath.

"A delegation of the Kashmir Press Conference, Srinagar, which included several leading newspaper men, met Quaid-i-Azam Muhammad Ali Jinnah, President of the Muslim League, at his appointed time, on 23 May 1944 at 11 a.m., at `Koshik', Nishat, Srinagar, and asked various questions.

"I asked Quaid-i-Azam, Who can join the All-India Muslim League? At this, Mr. M. A. Sabir, editor of al-Barq, told the Quaid-i-Azam that the background to the question was probably that in Kashmir Ahmadis were not allowed to join the Muslim conference. Quaid-i-Azam smiled and recorded his reply as follows:

"I have been asked a disturbing question, as to who among the Muslims can be a member of the Muslim Conference. It has been asked with particular reference to the Qadianis. My reply is that, as far as the constitution of the All-India Muslim League is concerned, it stipulates that any Muslim, without distinction of creed or sect, can become a member, provided he accepts the views, policy and programme of the Muslim League, signs the form of membership and pays the subscription. I appeal to the Muslims of Jammu and Kashmir not to raise sectarian questions, but instead to unite on one platform under one banner. In this lies the welfare of the Muslims. In this way, not only can Muslims make political and social progress effectively, but so can other communities, and so also can the state of Kashmir as a whole."

"Mr. M. A. Sabir tried as hard as he could to persuade the Quaid-i-Azam to declare Qadianis as being out of the fold of Islam. But the Quaid-i-Azam stuck resolutely to his principle and kept on replying: `What right have I to declare a person non-Muslim, when he claims to be a Muslim'.

"The proceedings of this press conference were published, under my signature, in the Riyasati of that time and the Lahore newspapers, especially Inqilab, Shahbaz, Zamindar, Siyasat etc."​

​

link

 

[Thor]

Solomon2 - We do not need tof ollow anyone except our beloved Prophet (PBUH) and according to his teaching, Ahmadis are non-Muslim and have been declered as such and we stand by that.............

However the point being argued above is the creation of Pakistan and its purpose and identity..........

 

[Abu Zolfiqar]

You point of view, not theirs and THAT is what maters, what is their point of view as they will re-act the way they see it not YOU. However ewho will destroy Pakistan doesn't make a difference as each side will blame one another for it.

that's true....but deep down inside (i hate to sound arrogant here) I have much more to offer my country and my people than those backwards, uneducated, useless, good-for-nothing losers who think they can bomb people into submission....all they can do is shout slogans and threaten to kill people simply due to their beliefs

as for the finger-pointing --well yes that will go on. As long as people are civilized and agree to disagree, then it's fine. But resorting to violence for political or fanatical purposes is unacceptable in any country. The year is now 2011.

Oh please............. there are black sheep in EVERY community, and Islam has many.......... I am sure I can bring along photos of women and children blown up by Pakistani F-16s and US drones

well the drones debate is a seperate issue (you can view my posts in this forum to know my stance on that)

as for collateral damage during mil-ops in the insurgency affected areas --- it is unintentional consequence and the families are always re-compensated. Do you think those deaths are intentional? The intention is to protect the people there, and to eradicate the enemies of Pakistan and their supporters. The intention is NOT to maim and/or kill women or children

whereas -- the bombs of these sectarian and militant groups aim to inflict as much harm as possible on anything that moves. Total disregard for human life and total disregard for Islam, which condemns such violence.

the biggest blasphemy committed is by these people -- who see themselves as so superior and God-like that they can decide who is ''right'', who is ''wrong'' --killing anybody who ''gets in the way''

doesnt sound right to me

Wonder if you will reply the same if bombs went off in your household killing members of your family, then I wish to see your response......

if my family members went against the interests of my country, i would kill them with my own hand

TREASON........... that is the kind of attitude which is today having the effect it is......... Not one person today can say exactly what his vision ever was.......as counter points have always shown he also wanted an Islamic State

a Muslim majority country where ALL citizens (regardless of religious affiliation) are free to practice their religion

a country that is safe-haven for Muslims escaping persecution

a country where there is an ''Islamic-friendly'' Constitution; a country where you can choose to opt for shariah court or shariah banking.........

Pakistan was never to be a theocratic state. I hope it never will be either.

And anyways, Jinnah does not own Pakistan, we are not his followers but followers of Rasoolallah (AW) and we follow his ways.....

Jinnah is among the Founding Fathers of the Pakistani Nation ---and every man woman and child in Pakistan must pay full respect to him. Did you see me say we should be his ''followers'' anywhere? Was that what you saw me write?

As above again they just use Missiles, rockets, mortars, snipers and grenades to kill the women and children..........

you have no condemnation for people claiming to be Muslims but who bomb Mosques, attack civilians, kidnap, steal, extort, smuggle drugs, smuggle weapons and do other things to damage Pakistan and it's prestige.


where is your condemnation for that? You saw what they TRIED doing in Swat, didn't you? You want to live in a country where these backwards people tell you what to think, what to feel, what to do, what to eat....etc.

not gonna happen......there are many people who will resist that.

 

[thegreensprite]

Solomon2 - We do not need tof ollow anyone except our beloved Prophet (PBUH) and according to his teaching, Ahmadis are non-Muslim and have been declered as such and we stand by that.............

However the point being argued above is the creation of Pakistan and its purpose and identity..........

LOL.. what hypocrisy,,,, so we only need to follow the Holy Prophet(pbuh) and than in the same sentence you mention that you also follow what the uneducated cleric has declared.. which is that Ahmadi Muslims are non-Muslim. The Holy Prophet(pbuh) didn't declare us non-Muslim, so you and your illiterate mullahs opinion are just that... irrelevant opinions.

 

[Abu Zolfiqar]

Solomon2 - We do not need tof ollow anyone except our beloved Prophet (PBUH) and according to his teaching, Ahmadis are non-Muslim.

dude

during the time of the Prophet PBUH there was no such thing as a Sunni/Shiia/Sufi/Ahmedi/Wahhaby etc. etc.


second of all, Mohammed al Rasool Allah PBUH is the Messenger of Allah SWT. His job was not to do the teachings --though yes, he did have ardent followers and supporters by his side; there were principles of His which we want to emulate today (such as the importance of compassion, humanity and tolerance even for those who oppose you)

he was not the one who devised Islamic teachings......

 

[baqai]

hang on why deprive them of human rights and education? why can't we treat them just like other minorities?

 

[apophenia]

Figures? Are you that ignorant to ask for evidence on the treatment of Ahmadis in Pakistan? Just asking for evidence casts doubts on your intelligence levels and makes you pretty irrelevant in this discussion. Go and read some history about Pakistan.

I feel for every victim who is Pakistani and strive for making a change not to particular segment of our society but to masses. My issue with you is your deceitful half truths. Anyways, you look like a dummy who was told fairy-tale when he was just a child. Awwww...

 

[Baby Leone]

well its sad tht ppls dont accept other's faith...
but i feel more sad when this things comes from a country like USA where discrimination against Muslims are common practice

 

[Developereo]

It appears to be a case of obsession and possession.

On one hand, a lot of members are pretty quick to claim that Prophet Muhammad came to this world for the sake of all the people all over the world, on the other hand, the same members cannot tolerate that Ahmadiyyas take the Islamic Prophet as their own too.

At the same time, Islam also considers Jesus as its prophet (or messenger, howsoever you take it), who also happens to be the last prophet of the Christians.

It seems to me that whatever happened in Islam, with regard to taking some other religion's last prophet and turning him into a junior/'second last' to their own, is exactly the same thing that happened in Ahmadiyya, turning Islam's last Prophet into the 'second last' one, and then bringing out their own prophet (Mirza Ghulam Ahmad) as the final one.

But I do not see Muslims getting persecuted by Christians for that specific reason anywhere in the world.

Ahmadiyyas are already considered non-Muslim by those who believe in the finality of Prophet Muhammad. It should stop at that.

Why persecute them simply because they too feel a right to include Prophet Muhammad in their own religion? He (Prophet Muhammad) is, after all, for everyone, right?

P.S. If there appears any misunderstanding leading to any misinformation in my post, please feel free to point out, with arguments, and with facts.

I believe the issue of contention is not that Ahmadis added a prophet, but that they call themselves Muslims and some Muslims don't accept it.

To relate to your analogy, Muslims don't call themselves Christians, and Christians don't call themselves Jews.

A more apt comparison would be of Mormons v/s Christians. Mormons call themselves Christians, but most (evangelical) Christians do not consider them as such; i.e. they do not accept Mormon baptism as valid. Most Mormons live in the US (50%) and the rest in the Americas and Europe. Occasionally, there is opposition from Catholics when Mormons want to register themselves as an official church (Slovakia).

 

[regular]

Indeed, you are on a Pakistani forum and you have every right to construe hate as enlightenment - much success to you and all such as yourself.

However, you must clarifgy something for me, since you are not a Ahmadi, what difference does it make to you whether he was an Indian and israeli or a martian or a fraud - how is it your responsibility to "enlighten" -- Is Mr. Musharraf hiding? certainly that will be news to all those to whom he delivers lectures and who seek his counsel.

Excuse me sir! for the info of the forum pplz Musharraf never been Qadiani or Mirzai . He is a brave soldier of the country and he sacrificed for the cause of the nation his seat and his power. He is realli a sincere son of the nation and the Army. Some pplz who hate Islam trying to show him as Qadiani. He supported the law which declared Qadianis as non-Muslims. If he was Qadiani The king of Saudia would not have let him to enter Bait-Ullah and go on its roof top.. only a few pplz in this world had access there.....

 

[regular]

well its sad tht ppls dont accept other's faith...
but i feel more sad when this things comes from a country like USA where discrimination against Muslims are common practice

Yes! too much discrimination has been seen there. The white discriminating against blacks and Red Indians. The white captured the lands of the Red Indians and never gave it back. its too sad. plus religious discrimination is high all the times....

 

[TARIQ BN ZIYAAD]

This thread was closed yesterday i think after banning thor bhai and i received some kind of notification and again the bashing of muslims, pakistan have statred now?

Developereo, i disagree with u i lived most of my life outside of pakistan and whoever knows about the ideology of qadianies don't accept them as muslims and many when told about them they aslo don't accept them as muslims, so it is all the muslim don't accept them as muslims and not some

TARIQ

 

[regular]

This thread was closed yesterday i think after banning thor bhai and i received some kind of notification and again the bashing of muslims, pakistan have statred now?

Developereo, i disagree with u i lived most of my life outside of pakistan and whoever knows about the ideology of qadianies don't accept them as muslims and many when told about them they aslo don't accept them as muslims, so it is all the muslim don't accept them as muslims and not some
TARIQ

I mean the problem is with Qadianis is that they changed everything for them. They don't accpet whatever is in Holy Quran. So they don't accept our Islam then ..its so simpple....

 

[SQ8]

I think if the Qadiyani community dropped its demand to be recognized as muslims.. they would be safe from a majority of violent threats(not all). Eventually, they will be able to integrate better into what is already an intolerant society.

Now, coming to what will still remain as an instigator of violence. The declaration of Qadiyani's as Murtids.. those who have left Islam and are essentially to be treated as traitors i.e Killed in cold blood.
However, what those people who propagate violence for this reason must consider is that Most of the original converts are already dead. The Qadiyanis today were born into their society and therefore were never part of Mainstream Islam in the first place.. and therefore should be seen by those that oppose them as Non-Muslims.
Bhutto was a smart man having this done, as it helped stave off a massacre.

However, the events in Lahore and elsewhere are proof that there will always be people to contest violently any efforts by the Qadiyani community to propagate their religion.