AH 1Z Cobra Awaiting delivery to Pakistan Army

[Signalian]

American (military-purpose) hardware has no equal on average; designs are typically well-researched and thoroughly tested and quality of components is expected to be top-notch - anybody who tells you otherwise is speaking without experience. Our military establishment is not trying to induct Zulu to appease US [in political terms] but on the basis of its performance (and availability). Prior experience and familiarity with Cobra choppers also a factor.

T-129 and Z-10 are not substitutes of Zulu but secondary options. Turkey can provide us NATO-grade hardware and insight but it is not self-sufficient in this respect. Chinese options are good in their own right but hardly battle-tested and not always up to our expectations. We cannot depend upon a single country for our defense-related needs because our adversary is diversifying its investments - getting hardware from several states such as US, France and Russia.

I know you have a liking for US equipment and as a matter of fact, Russian gunships dont get that much coverage and documentaries on Discovery and other channels but they have been thoroughly researched, having good quality systems and are pretty much battle tested in Syria. Dont consider Russian equipment inferior to American. We will always see exclusive footages of US weapons in Gulf wars, Afghan war etc on every news channel but hardly Russian weaponry used in Ukrainian or Georgian or Syrian conflict

Russia has consistently used three types of gunships in Syria.

Mi-28 with Russian Regular ground forces
Ka-52 used with Russian SF.
Mi-24/35 being used extensively also as seen in video below.

footage of missiles launched from Mi-28

 

[The Accountant]

I know you have a liking for US equipment and as a matter of fact, Russian gunships dont get that much coverage and documentaries on Discovery and other channels but they have been thoroughly researched, having good quality systems and are pretty much battle tested in Syria. Dont consider Russian equipment inferior to American. We will always see exclusive footages of US weapons in Gulf wars, Afghan war etc on every news channel but hardly Russian weaponry used in Ukrainian or Georgian or Syrian conflict

Russia has consistently used three types of gunships in Syria.

Mi-28 with Russian Regular ground forces
Ka-52 used with Russian SF.
Mi-24/35 being used extensively also as seen in video below.

footage of missiles launched from Mi-28

Russian equipment is good but the electronics of western system is superrior ... this is because of design philosphy ... russians believe in power hence we bigger aircrafts like su30 with huge fire power but americans are moving towards f35 single engine electronics dependant fighter ... experience shows that electronics are expensive to develop but are effective in battle whereas heavy power is cheap to manufacture but comparatively less effective ...

 

[CHI RULES]

The prime role of Ah1z is to get a heavy gunship helicopter both against insurgency and in war time. If Pak don not get them from USA we may negotiate with Russians for Mi28 or KA52. The main asset Pak going to get with AH1z is Hell fire missiles able to engage multiple targets from long ranges. Question is if the Russia shall be willing to sell hi tech gunships to Pak and what ammo they shall use if any deal realizes in future.

 

[Signalian]

Russian equipment is good but the electronics of western system is superrior ... this is because of design philosphy ... russians believe in power hence we bigger aircrafts like su30 with huge fire power but americans are moving towards f35 single engine electronics dependant fighter ... experience shows that electronics are expensive to develop but are effective in battle whereas heavy power is cheap to manufacture but comparatively less effective ...

Can you go in more detail and compare modern American and Russian helicopter with respect to electronics?

There were vast distances to be covered in USSR as well as requirement for longer loiter times that's why SU series came up. Heavy isn't an obsession, a requirement perhaps. Still heavy wouldn't mean compromising on electronics for aircrafts as huge RCS is already a big disadvantage.

Maybe you meant, quantity over quality?

 

[The Accountant]

The biggest example are smart weapons ... US continously moving towards using smart weapons whereas Russia is no where near it ... another example is drone which is totally electronic based sophisticated system and russia is no where close to it ...

F35 is another example where plane itself is aerodynamically not a very good dog fighter but its electronics is state of rt ... concept of data fusion is still at beginer level in russia but US is leading that ... in short there was a time when both USSR and US were working for new tech but now most of the time russians are chasing in bringing new war concepts which are mostly based on electronics and data fusion ...

Can you go in more detail and compare modern American and Russian helicopter with respect to electronics?

There were vast distances to be covered in USSR as well as requirement for longer loiter times that's why SU series came up. Heavy isn't an obsession, a requirement perhaps. Still heavy wouldn't mean compromising on electronics for aircrafts as huge RCS is already a big disadvantage.

Maybe you meant, quantity over quality?

 

[Windjammer]

 

[AZADPAKISTAN2009]

If we can get money back it would be better option

Would help us buy 50-60 Chinese Z-10 Gunships

 

[Signalian]

Is the LONGBOW radar included in the deal ?

 

[Signalian]

The biggest example are smart weapons ... US continously moving towards using smart weapons whereas Russia is no where near it ... another example is drone which is totally electronic based sophisticated system and russia is no where close to it ...

F35 is another example where plane itself is aerodynamically not a very good dog fighter but its electronics is state of rt ... concept of data fusion is still at beginer level in russia but US is leading that ... in short there was a time when both USSR and US were working for new tech but now most of the time russians are chasing in bringing new war concepts which are mostly based on electronics and data fusion ...

I had asked you for comparison of electronics on helicopters, russian and american.

The most important electronic feature would be the Millimeter wave radar. Longbow for AH64. N-025 for Mi28, FH-01 Phazotron for KA-52.

Long Bow Radar:
Range: 8km to 12km.
Band: Ka.
Modes: Surveillance, targeting, RFI cued, terrain profiling, and air overwatch


N-025
Range: 8km (Ground targets) to 20 km (aerial targets)
Band: Ka and J
Modes: Detection (Ground/air), targeting, low altitude flight, navigation and terrain mapping.

Both have FLIR, NV, IR Jammers against incoming missiles, RWR etc. AH-64 takes an edge as it has radar jammer capability using AN/ALQ-136. However, Russia has tested the Richag-AV Radar Jammer on Mi-8 variants, but its not clear if this is installed on Mi-28 as yet.

 

[Mentee]

Is the LONGBOW radar included in the deal ?

no, never !

 

[Signalian]

The prime role of Ah1z is to get a heavy gunship helicopter both against insurgency and in war time. If Pak don not get them from USA we may negotiate with Russians for Mi28 or KA52. The main asset Pak going to get with AH1z is Hell fire missiles able to engage multiple targets from long ranges. Question is if the Russia shall be willing to sell hi tech gunships to Pak and what ammo they shall use if any deal realizes in future.

Regarding the Hellfire missile, its laser guided and can be used in conjunction with LongBow Radar but not necessarily. Range of 8 km is achieved.
The Russian Ataka Missile has range between 6-8 km (or even 10km 9M120D) depending upon variant, its radio guided and carried by Mi-28 and Mi-35 whereas Vikhr Missile has longer range around 8-10 km, its laser guided and carried by Ka-50/52.
A radio guided missile (Ataka) is prone to jamming whereas a laser guided (Hellfire,Vikhr) and a wire guided (TOW) are not. A wire guided has disadvantage of being limited in length of wire. The Ataka-V version is said to be resistant to IR and radio jamming, which ATGM is being used by PAA Mi-35's?

The questions arise, since Pakistan will be getting 1000 Hellfire missiles, will only 15 Cobras be able to use these missiles or will other Cobras be upgraded to such W or Z standards. Also should an additional platform be acquired to use these missiles like T-129.

no, never !

so is it better to go for MMW radar equipped helicopter or a go for a better ATGM.

 

[Mentee]

so is it better to go for MMW radar equipped helicopter or a go for a better ATGM.

The questions arise, since Pakistan will be getting 1000 Hellfire missiles, will only 15 Cobras be able to use these missiles or will other Cobras be upgraded to such W or Z standards. Also should an additional platform be acquired to use these missiles like T-129.

I hope those hell fires wont be used for takin out talibunny mud compounds , waste of Pakistani taxpayers money !

 

[Signalian]

shaklein mat banayo, Kuch bol bhi lo

I hope those hell fires wont be used for takin out talibunny mud compounds , waste of Pakistani taxpayers money !

Hydra 70mm is more useful against them.

Pakistan also has made a laser guided missile, Barq, used on UCAV Burraq. would that be a good option to integrate on gunships?

 

[nana41]

Are those AB 129s in the picture. ?

With anti Islam,KKK wizard Trump at the helm in Washington, I doubt if ever he will abide by the contract of delivering the the H1-z Attack Helicopters.Let's hope and see,although the delivery is already overdue.

 

[Hassan Guy]

Nice we're buying helicopters from the US.

We should buy pilots from the US as well.