What's new

After initial balk, India reconsidering buying Iron Dome

Imagine how much money is being wasted on these temporary systems.India needs to spend money on laser based weapons that can be used for offensive and defensive purposes.lasers will be the future anyways,why not get ahead and be a leader.
My two cents.
 
.
Imagine how much money is being wasted on these temporary systems.India needs to spend money on laser based weapons that can be used for offensive and defensive purposes.lasers will be the future anyways,why not get ahead and be a leader.
My two cents.

Lasers are a long way to go. These systems provide immediate security.
Even Boeing and LM having done a lot of work, still years away from successful deployment. India has a long way to go.
 
.
Lasers are a long way to go. These systems provide immediate security.
Even Boeing and LM having done a lot of work, still years away from successful deployment. India has a long way to go.

Not just India,other nations are far from close to successful deployment of such system.But that doesnt mean we shouldnt do it.Can you imagine,once ready,you will have a 99.99% kill rate, an effective BMD.
 
.
Not just India,other nations are far from close to successful deployment of such system.But that doesnt mean we shouldnt do it.Can you imagine,once ready,you will have a 99.99% kill rate, an effective BMD.

There is a KALI project, which is closest to a laser MD Indian project.
 
.
The Iron Dome system might be able to intercept a few rockets fired by guerrila or militia forces.

But intercept tens of thousands of rockets launched by a regular army?

lol lol lol!

India would become a beggar’s country before succeeding in intercepting a low % of the rockets。:omghaha:
 
.
No I didn't , I said that the other side has such systems as well , doesn't it ? The point that I was trying to make was that the Iron Dome will have extreme difficulty to recognize , differentiate and then target the artillery barrages in the fog of war , its response time just isn't upto par and the cost is astronomical . Do you have the luxury to spend $ 90K per interceptor for a dozen shells heading for ' protected zones ' ? India will be equally aggressive , but does that mean that the artillery duels will not happen somehow ? The intensity will be far more than what we used to see on the Line of Control before the ceasefire . You can draw your conclusions by analyzing those duels and then decide whether the Iron Dome can make the difference , neutralize the BM's threat and more importantly , justify the sky rocketing cost .


So?
Iron Dome will attack everything coz as I said the attacking volley will not be as much concentrated as you are putting it out to be.
You are bringing the same foot forward every time coz as I said situations will be different on our side as we will probably be more aggressive.
As for "protected zones", again this is not Israel vs Hammad we are not protecting cities and we will see u coming.
I am not saying that the "artillery duels" won't happen at all, all I am saying is that it won't happen to that a degree.
I am not saying that the Iron Dome is invincible in fact we will take a number of hits, but it will provide a certain level of protection that would give Indian army enough time to counter attack which is more than what I can say for Pakistan army which doesn't have any such defensive weaponry against artillery.
If you start bringing in BM and sky rocketing then there is a whole lot of things you need to consider from our side too.So lets not get into that coz we are concentrating on what level of firepower would Iron Dome be handling.
Coz as far as I can gather you are continuously in the presumption that an Iron Dome system will face heavy fire which as I said it won't. Why?
If I am not wrong then there is large geographical gap between the Indian and the Pakistan army and we will see each other coming there'll be no surprise, unlike in Hamas & PIJ vs IDF where they are fighting for a small strip of land and are separated with a landmass of less than 20km and they are protecting their cities, we won't have that problem. Because, are you telling me that the pak army will lead its "victorious march" into Indian cities without facing conflict or wiping IA off the face of the earth?
So why do you keep emphasizing that we will go in a hand-to-hand like artillery combat. The rules just don't apply here just like Israel.
Just like you said "Tel Aviv faces nothing" however that runs both ways. Whereas we will have to face your missile and whatnot alongside the artillery we will also see it coming and you will have to face the same.
So in the end its not a battle of how well IA can defend itself , as it will boil down to who stands ground the longest.


I do not even think that somehow you can field X systems of Iron Dome for X number of artillery/MBRLs , more realistic , eh ? The thing about the system facing a barrage of artillery isn't that hard to digest since that is the first thing , that will start during a theater level warfare . I pointed out ' systems in isolation ' because there's no way to take into consideration every weapon system in service with both armies and then try to paint a plausible and comprehensible scenario . The system is useless due to that very thing that it isn't ' Israel vs Hamas ' since Tel Aviv faces nothing , what both countries will in case of hostilities .

You are right we cannot.
The thing that is more realistic is that Pakistan won't have such a system whereas Iron Dome (if) will provide a certain degree of protection while IA takes damage, whereas PA will only be taking damage.
If you are adamant on ' systems in isolation ' then Iron Dome won't face that kind of barrage of artillery, coz I don't believe that IA will take a step back when tanks and artillery guns from your side are approaching our poor and lonely Iron Dome.
Unlike ' Israel vs Hamas ' our goal wouldn't be to protecting cities our goal will be to last longer than you all, so NO it wouldn't be useless.


Sure , you can add the Al Khalid , KRL-21's and Nasar in such case . That is easy , very easy . The sites of the major battles are well known , I think .

I am very much aware that the systems do not really work in isolation , but ask yourself that are SAM's , missiles , WLR's something exclusive to Indian Army somehow or are they possessed by other party too ? What sort of deficiency in ranges of tactical missiles of Pakistan are you looking at ? Have a detailed look at the original Hatf series and the continuous up-gradation . The range of Iron Dome at maximum is just 70 km and keep in mind that it isn't the effective range , where exactly are you going to place it to be safe ? Port Blair ? What are you trying to protect in such case if you want to take it far away from the battlefield to lessen the threats ?

No such defensive systems ? I never knew that my country doesn't have SAM's .

When did I say that?

Oh I don't know...................Prahaar also a tactical ballistic missile has a range of 150km against ur Nasr also a tactical ballistic missile, our Prithvi series like ur Hatf series also goes into steadfast upgradation, and BrahMos of course.
There'll be other SAMs for them and God knows we have many, but we are talking about artillery and short ranged missiles since that is what the Iron Dome works against. you can't put it up against MRBMs.
Iron Dome will do a specific job its not a jack of all trades it can only be put against some situation not every single one. You are just being unrealistic

Port Blair? Why did that come into your mind? Or is it that Pakistan now possesses floating tanks.
As I said it'll be used in a different context and why do you think we will take it away from the battlefield, again for the millionth time it is not the Gaza strip and India is the 7th largest country in the world unless of course PA's artillery can reach portblair from Islamabad then we are in a lot of trouble.

Please don't take my argument out of context, that's just petty, I meant artillery. And again I'll say "No such defensive systems", coz I don't see a defense system against artillery that Pakistan has, SAMs just don't count.
And lets be real coz the sword cuts both ways; just like the Iron Dome which won't be able to face great odds, u all too will lose the degree of surprise Hammas has and will have to face numbers.

Which will boil down to which army can endure the most.
 
.
So?
Iron Dome will attack everything coz as I said the attacking volley will not be as much concentrated as you are putting it out to be.
You are bringing the same foot forward every time coz as I said situations will be different on our side as we will probably be more aggressive.
As for "protected zones", again this is not Israel vs Hammad we are not protecting cities and we will see u coming.
I am not saying that the "artillery duels" won't happen at all, all I am saying is that it won't happen to that a degree.
I am not saying that the Iron Dome is invincible in fact we will take a number of hits, but it will provide a certain level of protection that would give Indian army enough time to counter attack which is more than what I can say for Pakistan army which doesn't have any such defensive weaponry against artillery.
If you start bringing in BM and sky rocketing then there is a whole lot of things you need to consider from our side too.So lets not get into that coz we are concentrating on what level of firepower would Iron Dome be handling.
Coz as far as I can gather you are continuously in the presumption that an Iron Dome system will face heavy fire which as I said it won't. Why?
If I am not wrong then there is large geographical gap between the Indian and the Pakistan army and we will see each other coming there'll be no surprise, unlike in Hamas & PIJ vs IDF where they are fighting for a small strip of land and are separated with a landmass of less than 20km and they are protecting their cities, we won't have that problem. Because, are you telling me that the pak army will lead its "victorious march" into Indian cities without facing conflict or wiping IA off the face of the earth?
So why do you keep emphasizing that we will go in a hand-to-hand like artillery combat. The rules just don't apply here just like Israel.
Just like you said "Tel Aviv faces nothing" however that runs both ways. Whereas we will have to face your missile and whatnot alongside the artillery we will also see it coming and you will have to face the same.
So in the end its not a battle of how well IA can defend itself , as it will boil down to who stands ground the longest.

Attack every threat coming in ? Are you serious ? Remind me again of your defense budget if you are trying to intercept every single artillery shell/rocket coming in . The credible threats can be in hundreds even by most modest estimates , for a theater . The attacking volley may be less but not than that number . So basically , you are trying to bring down every single shell/rocket coming in , with a $ 90k interceptor adding the $ 50k battery . How much money do you have in such case ? . Just do yourself a favor and read some reports about the artillery duels that used to happen on Line of Control , their intensity and then we can debate , on what the Iron Dome can face . Remember , that these duels would be far more severe in case of hostilities . Be aggressive , be hyper aggressive , how is it changing the scenario ? Were you not aggressive on LOC before the ceasefire came into effect ?

There are surprises , when there are large geographical gaps , not when you know where the militants are going to fire the rockets from . What sort of parallel are you trying to draw here , if I may know ? . The basis of that argument is wrong . Those surprises are only diminished by the fact that both adversaries possess equipment to detect each other's presence , not by the distance itself . So , what do you understand when I say that it isn't ' Israel vs Hammas ' ? Somehow , that because the IDF is trying to protect cities , it will be easy for Iron Dome to suit Indian needs , really ? What is a ' protected zone ' which I speak of ? Is it an entire city in your view ? The Israelis know exactly what is going to be fired at them and can estimate from what locations . You do not have that luxury . Fighting for small strips of land is easy , very easy but we aren't going to fight for some small strips , are we ? . I made it clear that Tel Aviv faces slow moving home made primitive Fajr and Qassam rockets , at max 10 at a time and with a delay of days . Even then , the intercept probability is estimated at 60% by more realistic experts , with the high response time of the system being a problem , forget the cost , any relevance you see with an India-Pakistan conflict ? Any at all ? If the answer is ' no ' , then the Iron Dome wasn't designed for the threats , you want it to neutralize now .

As for the Ballistic Missiles , read a few initial replies and you will get an idea of what I am talking about . A major reason to purchase the system according to your countrymen is to counter Nasar Battlefield BM . I was just pointing out that a single short range ballistic missile can successfully be launched under barrages of artillery , with greater probability of not being intercepted . There's nothing new , I brought in

I agreed with you that Iron Dome can indeed provide a certain level of protection , I just disagreed that it will be feasible in your case . Do a cost-benefit analysis yourself . Let me assure you that a war longer than a week isn't possible in sub continent scenario , other factors will come into play after it .

The problem isn't with protecting cities , since the primitive Hamas rockets are predictable , unsophisticated , crude and fired with a significant delay , thereby increasing the effectiveness of the system . Will it be the case with you ? Do you face an adversary , you believe to be even remotely resemble the insurgent groups ? Israel faces nothing , it is that simple .

Then , I believe that you got the idea that Pakistani tactical missiles aren't falling short in range , for example Abdali-1 has a range of 180 KM , currently in service . I never said that the Iron Dome would have to intercept Medium Range BM's , just pointed that the Islamabad's arsenal is in the process of continuous upgradation .

You wanted to place the system out of the range of threats , it may face . That is why I sarcastically suggested Port Blair . A defensive system that you are planning to acquire , for theater level protection cant be placed some 100 KM's away from the battlefield . For its maximum range is 70 KM which isn't the effective range of course . We aren't looking at an element of surprise , just the sheer numbers and no , the artillery's not petty . Perhaps , you didn't get the sarcasm ? :D
 
.
Iron Dome is very costly. Every rocket in it costs about 200,000$. And if the Israelis sell us with development costs too, it will end up high with Indian tax payers. Its better to start an indigenous quest.
 
.
Iron Dome is very costly. Every rocket in it costs about 200,000$. And if the Israelis sell us with development costs too, it will end up high with Indian tax payers. Its better to start an indigenous quest.

What's the Cost of Single Akash Missile ,single Pechora Missile
 
.
What's the Cost of Single Akash Missile ,single Pechora Missile

Akash is a Air defence missile targetting aircrafts and drones. But Iron Dome missiles are not exactly anti aircraft missiles.
Iron Dome missiles bring down rockets, and at times they use more than 2-3 missiles to bring down a target. And Akash is indigenous. Iron Dome is not.
 
.
Iron Dome is very costly. Every rocket in it costs about 200,000$. And if the Israelis sell us with development costs too, it will end up high with Indian tax payers. Its better to start an indigenous quest.

We can buy ToT for the radar & software (which is the most important part of ID system), modify
it, and develop a cheaper missile to carry out the actual interception.
 
.
Not just India,other nations are far from close to successful deployment of such system.But that doesnt mean we shouldnt do it.Can you imagine,once ready,you will have a 99.99% kill rate, an effective BMD.

Germany's Rheinmetal has developed such a system, but it's more a C-RAM system for shorter ranges, than one to counter missiles at long ranges. It's defenitely something to consider for the future, but shouldn't be a cheap system too. For base defence a gun based C-RAM system like Rheinmetalls Skyshield, linked with the coming Maitri SAM would be better I guess.
 
.
Attack every threat coming in ? Are you serious ? Remind me again of your defense budget if you are trying to intercept every single artillery shell/rocket coming in . The credible threats can be in hundreds even by most modest estimates , for a theater . The attacking volley may be less but not than that number . So basically , you are trying to bring down every single shell/rocket coming in , with a $ 90k interceptor adding the $ 50k battery . How much money do you have in such case ? . Just do yourself a favor and read some reports about the artillery duels that used to happen on Line of Control , their intensity and then we can debate , on what the Iron Dome can face . Remember , that these duels would be far more severe in case of hostilities . Be aggressive , be hyper aggressive , how is it changing the scenario ? Were you not aggressive on LOC before the ceasefire came into effect ?


There are surprises , when there are large geographical gaps , not when you know where the militants are going to fire the rockets from . What sort of parallel are you trying to draw here , if I may know ? . The basis of that argument is wrong . Those surprises are only diminished by the fact that both adversaries possess equipment to detect each other's presence , not by the distance itself . So , what do you understand when I say that it isn't ' Israel vs Hammas ' ? Somehow , that because the IDF is trying to protect cities , it will be easy for Iron Dome to suit Indian needs , really ? What is a ' protected zone ' which I speak of ? Is it an entire city in your view ? The Israelis know exactly what is going to be fired at them and can estimate from what locations . You do not have that luxury . Fighting for small strips of land is easy , very easy but we aren't going to fight for some small strips , are we ? . I made it clear that Tel Aviv faces slow moving home made primitive Fajr and Qassam rockets , at max 10 at a time and with a delay of days . Even then , the intercept probability is estimated at 60% by more realistic experts , with the high response time of the system being a problem , forget the cost , any relevance you see with an India-Pakistan conflict ? Any at all ? If the answer is ' no ' , then the Iron Dome wasn't designed for the threats , you want it to neutralize now .

As for the Ballistic Missiles , read a few initial replies and you will get an idea of what I am talking about . A major reason to purchase the system according to your countrymen is to counter Nasar Battlefield BM . I was just pointing out that a single short range ballistic missile can successfully be launched under barrages of artillery , with greater probability of not being intercepted . There's nothing new , I brought in

I agreed with you that Iron Dome can indeed provide a certain level of protection , I just disagreed that it will be feasible in your case . Do a cost-benefit analysis yourself . Let me assure you that a war longer than a week isn't possible in sub continent scenario , other factors will come into play after it .

The problem isn't with protecting cities , since the primitive Hamas rockets are predictable , unsophisticated , crude and fired with a significant delay , thereby increasing the effectiveness of the system . Will it be the case with you ? Do you face an adversary , you believe to be even remotely resemble the insurgent groups ? Israel faces nothing , it is that simple .

Then , I believe that you got the idea that Pakistani tactical missiles aren't falling short in range , for example Abdali-1 has a range of 180 KM , currently in service . I never said that the Iron Dome would have to intercept Medium Range BM's , just pointed that the Islamabad's arsenal is in the process of continuous upgradation .

You wanted to place the system out of the range of threats , it may face . That is why I sarcastically suggested Port Blair . A defensive system that you are planning to acquire , for theater level protection cant be placed some 100 KM's away from the battlefield . For its maximum range is 70 KM which isn't the effective range of course . We aren't looking at an element of surprise , just the sheer numbers and no , the artillery's not petty . Perhaps , you didn't get the sarcasm ? :D

"happened" was a long time ago when we didn't have our own rocket salvos or cruise missiles like Brahmos and as I said and will repeat again artillery fire will not be the main focus.
Keep ranting about LOC coz we have the numbers and missiles, times have changed coz, when will your artillery come into play when we have cruise missiles and sensor fused cluster weapons who do exactly the job of destroying tank and artillery units, what will happen to your aggressive numbers of 100s of artillery shells and a few Nasrs then?
All I am saying is that PA won't get the chance of going in large numbers to pick on an Iron Dome.
And as for "aggressive on LOC before the ceasefire came into effect", we weren't offered Iron Domes then.


What kind of surprises.........?
Is the Pak artillery coming from behind us? That kind of surprises if u would be so kind as to illustrate?
Buddy it'll all be firepower.
And just to let you know we are still talking about Iron Dome intercepting rockets and artillery not different scenario as to how PA can blow one Iron Dome battery with a ballistic missile.
We are talking about only deterrence not complete deterrence.
Surprises are diminished by detection only coz of large geographical gaps and we are not talking of surprises btw.
As for "The Israelis know exactly what is going to be fired at them and can estimate from what locations", so will we.
Since we are still talking of tanks and rocket MFUs they'll still be detectable by satellites or radars or UAVs or airborne radars like the EL/M-2032 that India has.
A battery of Iron Dome traveling alongside a tank regiment will easily have a degree of defensive ability.
SO again I'll say the same thing, it boils down to who lasts longer.

As for "any relevance you see with an India-Pakistan conflict ?"
Lets not pretend that you know more than the collective minds of the military thinkers in our army, coz the poor fellows might have one pi$$poor scenario in mind that has the use of the Iron Dome.


Maybe , maybe not, the Iron Dome can intercept a Nasr singly or in between a barrage, as for " a single short range ballistic missile can successfully be launched under barrages of artillery", I doubt so much of a favor will be granted by lady luck.
There won't be a barrage if we do it first with a longer ranged Prahaar.
SO no matter what scenario I can drum up it boils down to the fact that we have something the denies, even though it'll be little we still have a chance of counter attack coz the opposing forces don't have a defensive system better than ours.


As for "a cost-benefit analysis" you are right. A direct cost benefit graph won't look good but if we are talking long term i.e. in case of weeks of war it'll bend in IA's favor coz lets face it we have the numbers to last longer than PA.
Iron Dome will be among many other systems giving a sort of buffer for lasting long.

70km is only the intercept range. The radars can still detect oncoming rockets or artillery its not like if the enemy is launching beyond 70km it just won't go.
A battery can protect an area of 150sqkm and mobile MFUs of Iron Dome is present.
Maybe sheer numbers will overwhelm it but lets not forget that IA too is coming with "sheer numbers", so again it'll boil down to who lasts longer, while having a pinch of deterrence against artillery and rockets, while the other side doesn't. And again the numbers God is in our side.
 
.
Akash is a Air defence missile targetting aircrafts and drones. But Iron Dome missiles are not exactly anti aircraft missiles.
Iron Dome missiles bring down rockets, and at times they use more than 2-3 missiles to bring down a target. And Akash is indigenous. Iron Dome is not.

Iron Dome is very costly. Every rocket in it costs about 200,000$. And if the Israelis sell us with development costs too, it will end up high with Indian tax payers. Its better to start an indigenous quest.

A unit Holds 20 Tamir Interceptor Missiles each costs around $50k

Iron Dome is also effective against aircraft up to an altitude of 32,800 ft (10,000 m) range about upto 70KM ..so a Decent system Against Enemy Aircraft as well as Missiles and Artillery Shells

Don't Know clearly about launching more than one Missile for a Single Rocket

@500 will help us
 
Last edited by a moderator:
.
:omghaha: I thought India had the most advanced missile defense shield in the whole world!
 
.

Pakistan Affairs Latest Posts

Back
Top Bottom