Advanced Medium Combat Aircraft (AMCA) Project

sancho · May 21, 2012

tvsram1992 said:
It would have been much better if we had already done this with LCA .

That's true, but we or some companies wanted to show off and do it alone, that's why we remain to be way behind others.

tvsram1992 said:
Any ways there is no need to codevelop/partner with other countries because simply we can get what ever component we require .

Not really, we can't get the necessary techs for AESA radar or engine, that's why we are searching for co-development partners of LCA AESA and Kaveri.

tvsram1992 said:
We get the tech in the form of TOT at a rapid rate . Mki,Rafale,PAKFA techs

That's a dream, not reality! As mentioned earlier, it is unlcear how much and how fast we can absorb ToT, but DRDO and ADA already wants to go for AMCA, although we get ToT of Rafale, FGFA, Kaveri Snecma engine, AESA co-developments only within the next 8 to 10 years.
Again, we can't learn from these licence productions and co-developments and directly divert it into AMCA developments, it only works step by step. That means we have to run the licence productions propperly first and then, can indigenously benefit from what we have learned. That's why I said, if you want to do AMCA alone, you have to start the development around 2020 or later to replace MKI and not now.

Abingdonboy said:
I'm sorry but I fail to see what the Brazillians could possibly bring to the table. Yes they have made a few commercial planes with military applications but fighter design is completely different and I can't see much the Brazillians could offer.

They are not only ahead of India in design and production of civil and military aircrafts (AMX co-developed, Tucano trainer with CAS capabilty), but also in developing weapons or certain avionics, but most of all they have more experience than we have in the aero field so far.

+ AFAIK the AMCA is meant to serve as a replacement to the Jaguar and Mig-27 not the MKI. The FGFA/PAK-FA is the replacement to the MKI.

It was meant to replace strike fighters in roles initially, but that idea is gone now anyway and FGFA will replace all remaining Mig 27 and Jags in numbers as well:

36 x Mig 27 UPG
~ 60 x Mig 29 UPG
~ 40 x M2K-5s
~ 50 to 80 x older Jags (newer will remain in reserve if at all)

=> FGFA x 250 from 2017-19 onwards

Which leaves no fighter to replace until the early MKIs needs replacements beyond 2030 and that's why I say there is no need for IAF to go for AMCA and add another fighter type. They (especially DRDO and ADA) simply want to switch faster from LCA to AMCA development, although they messed it up.

SQ8 · May 21, 2012

sancho said:
Which leaves no fighter to replace until the early MKIs needs replacements beyond 2030 and that's why I say there is no need for IAF to go for AMCA and add another fighter type. They (especially DRDO and ADA) simply want to switch faster from LCA to AMCA development, although they messed it up.

Super MKI's??.

sancho · May 21, 2012

Oscar said:
Super MKI's??.

That's not a replacement, but an upgrade similar to JF 17 Block 3 if you want. The first MKIs were inducted early 2000s and needs to be replaced at least from 2035 onwards. With the high flight hours that especially the first versions had, I think they might be in service only for 30 years and not 40 as normally planned. Replacing them then with a medium class stealth fighter, with 5th or even 5+ gen capabilities makes way more sense, than inducting 2 stealth fighters with the same capabilities, with just a few years time difference.

Dash · May 21, 2012

tvsram1992 said:
We may not have all the necessary tech now . We get the tech in the form of TOT at a rapid rate . Mki,Rafale,PAKFA techs . I didnt say we have the tech now itself . We will be absorbing it with the time at a rapid rate and by the end of the decade we will have many high end techs . But engine seems to be a problem . If you still go for JV i would say Russia would be the best partner than France and Swedan .

We saw how DCNS absorbed the TOT rapidly. The point is even if you give an honest try you still cant absorb TOT.
This transfer of technology is crap. We did have transfer of technology for many things. Without TOT can u say you can build a Su 30 MKI?...No.....So if we have the TOT for MKI then why are we struggling with LCA.??

These are two different things. The real TOT is what Indian Scientists will get in making the FGFA. In hand experience is like blueprint. Without that no mattter what TOT you have is "useless" unless you are reverse engineering (which is illigal and painstaking).

Russia is a good partner and we are doing it with FGFA. But you have to agree that Russia is not a very reliable partner when it comes to that. That is why we are having challenge in FGFA. but French are reliable but they will talk money. but hey...when you are reliable you have the right...

DrSomnath999 · May 21, 2012

well sad thing is

1st & most important step is to restructure HAL ,as HAL is having a very hard time delivering the SU 30 mki to IAF

then there is hell lot of work in future

1) Rafale's production & delivery

2) LCA mark 1 & of course mark 2

3) PAK fa in future

so the most important thing is can HAL manage all such things & deliver at proper time.On top of it one more headache AMCA,
hmmm ?????

Common give me a break

Dash · May 21, 2012

Great Sachin said:
Basics never get obsolete

But they do get upgraded and sometime the upgrades are overwhelming that it can change a mindset.

E.G - F-16 Vs F-22

DrSomnath999 said:
well sad thing is

1st & most important step is to restructure HAL ,as HAL is having a very hard time delivering the SU 30 mki to IAF

then there is hell lot of work in future

1) Rafale's production & delivery

2) LCA mark 1 & of course mark 2

3) PAK fa in future

so the most important thing is can HAL manage all such things & deliver at proper time.On top of it one more headache AMCA,
hmmm ?????

Common give me a break

Not just that!!!....some one has started a 6th gen Umanned strike aircraft. God knows who will produce that. But I know by 2017-18 HAL will release its Su 30 production line to accomodate Rafale + they are opening a new line also. So they will deliver, may be a little slow in the begining as usually but they will catch up speed.

PAKFA will need a completely different production line which they will also create.

DrSomnath999 · May 21, 2012

Dash said:
Not just that!!!....some one has started a 6th gen Umanned strike aircraft. God knows who will produce that. But I know by 2017-18 HAL will release its Su 30 production line to accomodate Rafale + they are opening a new line also. So they will deliver, may be a little slow in the begining as usually but they will catch up speed.

PAKFA will need a completely different production line which they will also create.

may god bless india

well IAF chief had urged the government let IAF take control of HAL but nothing is known about that .

Dash · May 21, 2012

DrSomnath999 said:
may god bless india

well IAF chief had urged the government let IAF take control of HAL but nothing is known about that .

That will be dengerous!!, at least you have seen some work around projects, but if IAF controls HAL then they can have all reasons on this planet for any delay.

What we need is a co-ordinating and unified body which can act like a production controller and liason with various other parties to ensure timely delivery. Now its all scattered and that risks accountability.

DrSomnath999 · May 21, 2012

Dash said:
That will be dengerous!!, at least you have seen some work around projects, but if IAF controls HAL then they can have all reasons on this planet for any delay.

What we need is a co-ordinating and unified body which can act like a production controller and liason with various other parties to ensure timely delivery. Now its all scattered and that risks accountability.

well i dont know what would be the result if HAL is taken By IAF

But really need a proper working body to make sure HAL delivers in time or else ,same old delay drama in news paper & websites