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‘Admitting you are a secularist can get you killed in Pakistan’

Sir first the person has to be Muslim if a person is denying Hadees and denying sayings of HAZRAT MUHAMMAD SAW than what should I say to him Sir if all of a sudden a Muslims start spreading false concepts we have to stop him Sir

He is spreading false concept? The concept that the Quran is the truth is false? What false concept?

ALL HE SAID - PLEASE TRY TO UNDERSTAND

that the Quran is more superior and IF HADITH all were lost we can still practice ISLAM USING QURAN, do you think this is false?

If Hadith are destroyed because ALLAH did not say about protecting them HE said HE will protect the Quran until day of judgement...We can not say this is extended to the Hadith BECAUSE YOU AND I KNOW we have SOOOOOOOO many "new" hadith which have been newly introduced BY PEOPLE to get what they want and call it ISLAMIC!

Now the Quran is protected and will NOT CHANGE but the same is not for the hadith THAT is all @LoveIcon said NOW if you have difficulty in understanding ENGLISH we can write it in Urdu because ENGLISH is NOT your 1st language and it is understandable!! If you feel offended then I am SORRY but that is what your answers imply!
 
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He is spreading false concept? The concept that the Quran is the truth is false? What false concept?

ALL HE SAID - PLEASE TRY TO UNDERSTAND

that the Quran is more superior and IF HADITH all were lost we can still practice ISLAM USING QURAN, do you think this is false?

If Hadith are destroyed because ALLAH did not say about protecting them HE said HE will protect the Quran until day of judgement...We can not say this is extended to the Hadith BECAUSE YOU AND I KNOW we have SOOOOOOOO many "new" hadith which have been newly introduced BY PEOPLE to get what they want and call it ISLAMIC!

Now the Quran is protected and will NOT CHANGE but the same is not for the hadith THAT is all @LoveIcon said NOW if you have difficulty in understanding ENGLISH we can write it in Urdu because ENGLISH is NOT your 1st language and it is understandable!! If you feel offended then I am SORRY but that is what your answers imply!
Sir he is rejecting Hadees Sir both Quran and Hadees are part of Islam not just Quran yes Quran comes first but Hadees is explantion of orders of Quran and some more orders from HAZRAT MUHAMMAD SAW but this man is completely rejecting Hadees Sir and those who reject Hadees will eventually reject Quran Sir Sir Hadees books didn't got changed so called Hadees you are talking about are Marfu Hadees and they are already now in separate books and Ulemas have told them and they have been told those Hadees and without Hadees you can't follow most orders of Quran Sir not Salah not Roza not Zakat or Hajj and many other orders I understand English I understand what that person is saying Sir and his vies are in contradiction with Islam and are similar to the views of Kharjis who are famous enemies of HAZRAT MUHAMMAD SAW
What are Hadeeth and Sunnah? @Talon read articles on this link they will help you a lot
 
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@Zarvan the importance you are giving hadith is incredible! I hope you give MORE importance to QURAN because surah maidah verse 3 says
.....This day I have perfected for you your religion and completed My favor upon you and have approved for you Islam as religion. But whoever is forced by severe hunger with no inclination to sin - then indeed, Allah is Forgiving and Merciful.

surah 54:17 And We have certainly made the Qur'an easy for remembrance, so is there any who will remember?

surah 54:22 And We have certainly made the Qur'an easy for remembrance, so is there any who will remember?

surah 54:32 And We have certainly made the Qur'an easy for remembrance, so is there any who will remember?

Was ALLAH joking repeating this over and over?
 
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@Zarvan the importance you are giving hadith is incredible! I hope you give MORE importance to QURAN because surah maidah verse 3 says








Was ALLAH joking repeating this over and over?
Sir first understand that ayat before telling Me
Evidence 1:
According to verse 144 of Surah al-Baqarah (Chapter 2 of the Qur’an), Allah Almighty commanded the Prophet (sas), to face the Ka’bah (inMecca) in his daily prayers instead ofJerusalem.
“We see the turning of thy face to the heavens: now shall We turn thee to a Qiblah that shall please thee. Turn then thy face in the direction of the Sacred Mosque; wherever ye are, turn your faces in that direction.”
But why was the Prophet (sas) facingJerusalembefore that? Verse 143 (of Surah al-Baqarah) shows that Allah Himself had appointedJerusalemas the initial Qiblah (i.e. direction faced when praying) for the Prophet (sas).
“And We appointed the Qiblah to which thou was used, only to test those who followed the Messenger from those who would turn on their heels (from the Faith).”
The appointment of the previous Qiblah is referred to as being in the past. But there is no verse in the Qur’an which commands the Prophet (sas), to faceJerusalemat the beginning of his mission! And also it is clear that the Prophet (sas) did not decide by himself to take Jeruselum as previous Qiblah as otherwise he would not have turned his face to the heavens with a hope that Allah will appoint Kaaba as the new Qiblah. Therefore, the Prophet (sas), must have received this guidance from Allah in a form other than the Qur’an. This alternative revelation is preserved in the Sunnah and Hadeeth. Ayah 143 also shows that Allah tested the faith of those who followed Messenger in complete sense (Qur’an + Hadith).

Evidence 2:
In verse 3 of Surah al-Tahreem (Chapter 66 of the Qur’an), a certain incident is cited.
“When the Prophet disclosed a matter in confidence to one of his wives, and she then divulged it, and Allah made it known to him, he confirmed a part of it and repudiated a part. Then when he told her of it, she said, ‘Who told you this?’ He said, ‘He told me Who knows and is well-acquainted (with all things)’.”
We must consider carefully the phrases “Allah made it known to him” and “He told me Who knows and is well-acquainted”, The question is, how did Allah make it known to him and tell him? Certainly not via the Qur’an, since there is no mention of it anywhere else in the Book of Allah. Therefore, the Prophet (sas), must have been told via some communication from Allah which is not part of the Qur’an.


Evidence 3:
It is mentioned in Surah 2 ayah 187;
“It is made lawful for you, in the nights of fasts, to have sex with your women. They are a cover for you, and you are a cover for them. Allâh knew that you were betraying yourselves; so, He relented towards you and pardoned you. So, now you can have sexual intimacy with them, and seek what Allâh has destined for you, and eat and drink until the white thread of the dawn becomes distinct from the black thread; then complete the fasts up to the night.”


(We sent them) with Clear Signs and Books of dark prophecies; and We have sent down unto thee (also) the Message; that thou mayest explain clearly to men what is sent for them, and that they may give thought.
(Translation of Qur’an Surah 16:44)
And We have not sent down to thee the Book except that thou mayest explain to them that concerning which they have created differences and as a guidance, and a mercy for a people who believe.
(Translation of Qur’an Surah 16:64)


Role as Law establisher and commander under guidance of Allah:-
“Those who follow the apostle, the unlettered Prophet, whom they find mentioned in their own (scriptures),- in the law and the Gospel;- for he commands them what is just and forbids them what is evil; he allows them as lawful what is good (and pure) and prohibits them from what is bad (and impure); He releases them from their heavy burdens and from the yokes that are upon them. So it is those who believe in him, honour him, help him, and follow the light which is sent down with him,- it is they who will prosper.” day: “O men! I am sent unto you all, as the Apostle of Allah, to Whom belongeth the dominion of the heavens and the earth: there is no Allah but He: it is He That giveth both life and death. So believe in Allah and His Apostle, the Unlettered Prophet, who believeth in Allah and His words: follow him that (so) ye may be guided.”
(Translation of Qur’an 7:157-158)
 
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Sir he is rejecting Hadees Sir both Quran and Hadees are part of Islam not just Quran yes Quran comes first but Hadees is explantion of orders of Quran and some more orders from HAZRAT MUHAMMAD SAW but this man is completely rejecting Hadees Sir and those who reject Hadees will eventually reject Quran Sir Sir Hadees books didn't got changed so called Hadees you are talking about are Marfu Hadees and they have been now in separate books and they have been told those Hadees and without Hadees you can't follow most orders of Quran Sir not Salah not Roza not Zakat or Hajj and many other orders I understand English I understand what that person is saying Sir and his vies are in contradiction with Islam and are similar to the views of Kharjis who are famous enemies of HAZRAT MUHAMMAD SAW

those who reject Hadees will eventually reject Quran
AGAIN accusations? ALL HE SAID was ALL HADITH ARE NOT PURE...When you want to take an example from a HADITH which 1 do you go to? EACH sect says their hadith is AUTHENTIC...So when someone converts to Islam if every sect gives him THEIR hadith book, THE NEW MUSLIM will be confused and convert to any other religion....

He will say I read in the Quran
"And We have indeed made the Quran easy to understand and remember; then is there anyone that will receive admonition?" [Noble Quran 54:17]
BUT now hanafi says this, Shafii says this, Maliki says this Hanbali says that, sufi say this, deobandi say this, ahle-hadith says that, Wahabi says this, salafi says that....WHICH ONE SHOULD I FOLLOW?

Quran said
"Or do they say he forged it? Say: Bring then a chapter like unto it, and call (to your aid) anyone you can, beside God, if it be you speak the truth." [Noble Quran 10:38]

"We have, without doubt, sent down the Message, and We will assuredly guard it from corruption." [Noble Quran 15:9]

This was the promise for the QURAN!

contradiction with Islam
How does it contradict Islam?
 
AGAIN accusations? ALL HE SAID was ALL HADITH ARE NOT PURE...When you want to take an example from a HADITH which 1 do you go to? EACH sect says their hadith is AUTHENTIC...So when someone converts to Islam if every sect gives him THEIR hadith book, THE NEW MUSLIM will be confused and convert to any other religion....

He will say I read in the Quran BUT now hanafi says this, Shafii says this, Maliki says this Hanbali says that, sufi say this, deobandi say this, ahle-hadith says that, Wahabi says this, salafi says that....WHICH ONE SHOULD I FOLLOW?

Quran said



This was the promise for the QURAN!

How does it contradict Islam?
Sir they all believe in books of Hadees Sir and you can't follow most orders of Quran without following HAdees
[Allah did confer a great favor on the believers when He sent among them a messenger from among themselves, rehearsing unto them the signs of Allah, purifying them, and teaching them the Book and the wisdom while, before that, they had been in manifest error.] (Aal `Imran 3:164)

[And We have sent down unto thee the Remembrance that thou mayest explain clearly to mankind what is sent for them.] (An-Nahl 16:44)

[He commands them what is just and forbids them what is evil; he allows them as lawful what is good and pure and prohibits them from what is bad and impure. He releases them from their heavy burdens and from the yokes that are upon them.] (Al-A`raf 7:157)

[O you who believe! Obey Allah and obey the Messenger, and those charged with authority among you. If ye differ in anything amongst yourselves refer it to Allah and the Messenger, if you believe in Allah and the Last Day.] (An-Nisaa’ 4:59)

[It is not fitting for a believer, man or woman, when a matter has been decided by Allah and His Messenger to have any option about their decision. If any one disobeys Allah and His Messenger, he is indeed on a clearly wrong path.] (Al-Ahzab 33:36)


O you who believe! Obey Allaah and obey the Messenger and those charged with authority among you; and if you differ in anything among yourselves, then refer it to Allaah and the Messenger if you do believe in Allaah and the Last Day. That is best and most suitable for final determination." (Surah Al-Nisa' 4:59)

"The answer of the believers, when summoned to Allaah and His Messenger in order that he may judge between them, is no other than this: they say, 'We hear and we obey'. It is such as these who will attain success." (Surah Al-Nur 24:51)


"But no, by your Lord! (O Muhammad) They cannot be believers until they make you judge in all disputes between them, and find in their souls no resistance against your decisions, but accept them with the fullest submission." (Surah Al-Nisa' 4:65)
 
@Zarvan there you go again

NO ONE IS SAYING WE DO NOT WANT TO FOLLOW HADITH we are saying FOLLOW THE QURAN....

Hadith is only used as a guideline NOT LIKE A THE PERFECT ANSWER!

READ @LoveIcon again you did not UNDERSTAND 1 WORD HE SAID!

You think without HADITH THERE IS NO ISLAM....When ISLAM IS FROM QURAN!

In quran it says Islam is easy yet you mankind make it hard!

TAKE A NEW MUSLIM and see how confused he/she gets in seconds because ALL of you sects have produced your own books!

There is a difference from REJECTING HADITH completely AND from not wanting to follow 1 blindly but wanting to check it with the QURAN


When you have learnt this difference then come online to chat! THANK YOU
 
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@Zarvan there you go again

NO ONE IS SAYING WE DO NOT WANT TO FOLLOW HADITH we are saying FOLLOW THE QURAN....

Hadith is only used as a guideline NOT LIKE A THE PERFECT ANSWER!

READ @LoveIcon again you did not UNDERSTAND 1 WORD HE SAID!

You think without HADITH THERE IS NO ISLAM....When ISLAM IS FROM QURAN!

In quran it says Islam is easy yet you mankind make it hard!

TAKE A NEW MUSLIM and see how confused he/she gets in seconds because ALL of you sects have produced your own books!
Sir we follow the Quran and Hadees both Sir we read the Quran and orders which in the Quran we go to Hadees to look for their details Sir Hadees and Quran are both part of Islam Sir and Quran understand they ayat and what it came for other wise tell me method of Salah how many rakats how to perform raku what to read them how to make jamat where Imam has to stand and answer is you will find these answers in Hadees not Quran Sir understand what Ayats of Quran mean before talking
Bismillahi wal hamdulillah wassalatu wassalamu ala Rasoolillah,

Ilmul Hadith is the science of the study of hadith. What defines �Hadith� will be mentioned later, but to begin with I would like to emphasize that the science of Hadith is one of many religious sciences. Just looking at the fundamental sciences there is Usul-Al-Quran (fundamentals of Quran), Usul Al-Hadith (fundamentals of Hadith), Lughah (language, including balaghah, Fasahah) and Usul al-Fiqh (the fundamentals of Fiqh).

The science of Hadith is one that is dependent on the science of Quran but also one that is necessary for the proper understanding of Quran.

A point I would like to make now is that there are people out there who question the necessity of hadith, in fact, the Qura�niyoon claim that hadith is irrelevant and that they will only study Quran. This is a ludicrous claim.

Allah says in Quran: �[2:129] Our Lord! Send amongst them a Messenger of their own, who shall rehearse Thy Signs to them and instruct them in Scripture and Wisdom, and sanctify them: for Thou art the Exalted in Might, the Wise.�

They keyword here being that the messenger is to teach them the book AND impart wisdom upon them. Even the Sahabah had problems understand some of the language of Quran.

In sourat Al-Hashr Allah tells us: �[59:7] So take what the Messenger assigns to you, and deny yourselves that which he withholds from you.�

He also says: �[4:65] But no, by thy Lord, they can have no (real) Faith, until they make thee judge in all disputes between them, and find in their souls no resistance against thy decisions, but accept them with the fullest conviction.�

Finally, Allah says: �[4:59] O ye who believe! obey Allah, and obey the Messenger, and those charged with authority among you. If ye differ in anything among yourselves, refer it to Allah and His Messenger, if ye do believe in Allah and the Last Day: that is best, and most suitable for final determination.�
 
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ok lets take 1 example...

New Muslim comes and joins a Shia and then goes to deobandi,

Tell me how will the NEW MUSLIM tell hadith from which side is right?

THIS HAS BECOME JUST LIKE

Islam came about at a time when people's religious practice was saturated by rituals and idol worship. These wrongful practices were shown to the followers in the Story of the Cow in the Quran beginning in chapter 2:67:


AND LO! Moses said unto his people: "Behold, God bids you to sacrifice a cow." They said: "Dost thou mock at us?" He answered: "I seek refuge with God against being so ignorant!"

Said they: "Pray on our behalf unto thy Sustainer that He make clear to us what she is to be like." [Moses] replied: "Behold, He says it is to be a cow neither old nor immature, but of art age in-between. Do, then, what you have been bidden!"

Said they: "Pray on our behalf unto thy Sustainer that He make clear to us what her color should be. "[Moses] answered: "Behold; He says it is to be a yellow cow, bright of hue, pleasing to the beholder."


The story continues in the same manner. The original command wasn't good enough for the people and they required more details than necessary to please their God. In the same way, Muslims of today have added and added to the original command of their God to worship Him alone, and the religion is now clouded with rituals, traditions, and scholars' rulings

Here is an example of HOW SECTS are formed! DUE TO EGO!

= "What Color Was The Dog?" =
Once there was a community of Muslims who were small in number yet large in belief and strong in action. So much so that, the non-believers could not defeat them in battle even though they had the Muslims out numbered.

One day a young man from the enemies pretended to enter into Islam and he went to the big teacher [learned man] in one part of the city and listened to his teaching of the Quran. The subject happened to be on the chapter of the Quran called Al Kahaf [The Cave, - #18].

When the teacher completed his talk he offered a chance for the brothers present to ask some questions. When it came the turn of the non-believer, he asked the teacher the question:

“Sir, in the story of the 'sleepers' in the cave, there is mention of a dog. And I was wondering if I might inquire as to what color the dog might have been? I hope you don’t mind my asking, especially if it is something that maybe you don’t know the answer to.”

Immediately the teacher says to the young man, “That’s no problem at all, everyone should know that the dog was YELLOW.”

The young man said, “Are you sure? I mean, could it have been another color?”

“No.” replied the old teacher, “It was definitely YELLOW.” Once again the young man thanked him and when on his way.

The next night the young enemy acting as though we was still seeking knowledge went to the other side of town and sat in another gathering of knowledge and they too were discussing different things about verses in the Quran.

So when it came time for the teacher to give each person attending, the opportunity to ask a question, the imposter posing as a Muslim raised his hand and then asked the question, “In the chapter about the “Cave”, the sleepers are mentioned in different numbers but each time there is a reference to their dog as being counted along with them. Now I was wondering whether or not anyone of knowledge has ever made any reference to what the color the dog might have been?”

The teacher immediately said, “Yes! The dog in this story in the Quran was BLACK.”

The young non-believer man was pleased and continued, “Sir, are you quite certain that the color of the dog mentioned in the story was BLACK?”

“Young man,” he quickly replied, “I'll stake my reputation on that as a fact.”

“Thank you, sir." said the non-believer.

The next night the non-believer still posing as a Muslim went back to the first teacher and then when it came time for the questions and answers he raised his hand and asked, “Teacher, you have so much knowledge and I am only a small beginner, I was just wondering, could you maybe remind me about the answer to the question the other night about the color of the dog in the cave in Surah Al-Kahaf?” (Quran: Chapter 18).

The teacher said, “There is no doubt whatsoever amongst the great scholars of Islam on this question. The dog was YELLOW. And anyone who says other than this has no knowledge.”

With that the young man spoke up again and said, “Sir, what would you say if someone else said that he would stake his reputation of being a scholar in Islam on the fact that the dog is not yellow, but rather that the dog is most certainly BLACK?”

The teacher quickly replied, “Then his reputation is not that of a scholar but one of a fool.”

Now the next time the enemy went to the teacher who believed the dog was BLACK, he told the teacher that the teacher on the other side of town was calling him names and saying that he had no knowledge of Islam and that for sure that the dog was YELLOW.

The teacher became angry and shouted, “You tell him, that I said he is the one without knowledge. I am the one who graduated from the greatest of schools of Islam, while he is but a fool.”

The plan was working. Before long the community was divided into two groups. Each group was claiming that their teacher was the one with the correct answer. Fighting broke out in the streets and the Muslims began attacking each other all over the city. Everyone became involved to the extent that there was not a single person who was excluded from this terrible situation. Screaming, shouting, hitting and fighting were everywhere.

And then it happened. The kafr went back out to his people and told them, “Let us go to fight them now. You will now find them most easy to defeat.”

And that is exactly what they did.

May Allah save us from such fitnah [tribulations]. Ameen.
 
ok lets take 1 example...

New Muslim comes and joins a Shia and then goes to deobandi,

Tell me how will the NEW MUSLIM tell hadith from which side is right?

THIS HAS BECOME JUST LIKE
Sir most new Muslims remained clued to Hadees that is why they are still remain Muslims other wise they wouldn't have known single Hadees and many Hadees are similar between Shias and Sunnis Sir and which ever Muslim converts they convert to either Sunni and Shia and Shia Hadees are mostly saying of their Imams not HAZRAT MUHAMMAD SAW so they have totally different thing Sir and you tell me the method of Salah how many rakats how to stand in Jamat what to read in Quran and with which setting we have to read them brother some things you read in Salah are not even in Quran @Talon
 
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Now I suggest to any moderator to close this thread it has become a TAMASHA for the non muslims to see we can NEVER agree on even 1 point!

1 person says we can live without Hadith and he is called all sorts of things...

Another says Islam is not complete without Hadith...


Its like saying I can live without breakfast but the other is telling that breakfast is the most important meal! :blink:


Sir most new Muslims remained clued to Hadees that is why they are still remain Muslims other wise they wouldn't have known single Hadees and many Hadees are similar between Shias and Sunnis Sir and which ever Muslim converts they convert to either Sunni and Shia and Shia Hadees are mostly saying of their Imams not HAZRAT MUHAMMAD SAW so they have totally different thing Sir and you tell me the method of Salah how many rakats how to stand in Jamat what to read in Quran and with which setting we have to read them brother some things you read in Salah are not even in Quran @Talon
@Zarvan read ANYONE OF MY POST i have clearly answered you!
 
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Now I suggest to any moderator to close this thread it has become a TAMASHA for the non muslims to see we can NEVER agree on even 1 point!

1 person says we can live without Hadith and he is called all sorts of things...

Another says Islam is not complete without Hadith...


Its like saying I can live without breakfast but the other is telling that breakfast is the most important meal! :blink:



@Zarvan read ANYONE OF MY POST i have clearly answered you!
Sir I have you haven't answered my question Sir where are rakats where is what we have to read in Salah where is How to make Jamat where is how to perform Raku and Sajda because both mean bowing down how Quran doesn't tell us now from where should I learn this and by the way even 5 salah are not mentioned in the Quran so why you offer 5 Salah ?
The Muslim Ummah and the scholars are of the unanimous view that the authority of the Qur’an is binding on all Muslims and the Sunnah of the Prophet comes next only to the Qur’an. This authority is expressed clearly through Divine Will. Allah (swt) described the Prophet’s position in the Qur’an:
1) Expounder of the Qur’an. “We have revealed to you the remembrance (the Qur’an) that you may explain to mankind that which has been revealed for them.” Nahl 16.44.
2) Legislator or law-giver. Allah (swt) Almighty says about the legislative power of the Prophet (pbuh) “He will make lawful for them all good things and prohibit for them only what is evil and impure. He relieves them of their burdens and the fetters which they used to wear. 7:157.
3) A model of behavior for Muslim society. The Qur’an refers to the life pattern of the Prophet (pbuh). “And verily you have an Allah’s apostle a good example “a noble model for him who looks to Allah and the last day and remembers Allah much.” 33:21.
4) The Qur’an explicitly ordered total obedience to the Prophet. “And whatever the Messenger gives you take it and whatever he forbids abstain from it.” 59:7 and ‘We sent no messenger save that he should be obeyed by Allah’s leave.” 4:64. “Say, ‘Obey Allah and the messenger. But if they turn their backs; Allah loves not the unbelievers.” 3:32. The strongest verse which makes it an article of faith to obey the Prophet is Surat al-Nisaa 4:65 which says “But, no by thy Lord! They will not believe till they make you the judge regarding disagreement between them; and find in their heart no resistance against the verdict, but accept in full submission.”
 
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Now I suggest to any moderator to close this thread it has become a TAMASHA for the non muslims to see we can NEVER agree on even 1 point!

1 person says we can live without Hadith and he is called all sorts of things...

Another says Islam is not complete without Hadith...


Its like saying I can live without breakfast but the other is telling that breakfast is the most important meal!
 

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