‘Admitting you are a secularist can get you killed in Pakistan’

[Agnostic_Indian]

We know what is Islam Sir and what we have to follow you go and sort out your problems the shuuders the Maoists and the poverty rapes and several other problems


Secularism is human law first secondly we have our own system and we don't need the secularism thing Sir we have our own system that is Islam and we will implement it for us anything other than law of Islam is kufr and kufr is evil

as expected you didn't answer directly nor did you defend your arguments logically. so naturally it's the end of discussion

 

[Bratva]

We know what is Islam Sir and what we have to follow you go and sort out your problems the shuuders the Maoists and the poverty rapes and several other problems


Secularism is human law first secondly we have our own system and we don't need the secularism thing Sir we have our own system that is Islam and we will implement it for us anything other than law of Islam is kufr and kufr is evil

This is the condition of Islam in Pakistan. First make Pakistan a society where people can follow one Islam than talk about implementing Islam. It's useless you talk about implementing islam without correcting the society first.Instead of Parroting like a moron, first create a unity among Muslims than Islam can be implemented. Without Unity Islamic system is totally useless and will create further bloodshed.

 

[K-Xeroid]

fist of all please avoid making " Islam is complete system " sentence on every post you make so that we can debate on points.

ok. let's try again..

you says there can't be a 100% secular system(so naturally 100% secular must be good since your concern is it might get influenced my majority beliefs and make it less than 100%) because it get influenced by majorities beliefs.. right ?

in other words secularism = perfection.
majoritie's belief makes an influence = less perfect secular system. so majority influence is a bad thing to have a in a perfectly neutral system( in theoretically)..right ?


or if you are arguing influence of majoritie's religious belief in state matters/ law is a good thing then what is the problem if secularism is influenced by majoritie's beliefs ? how does it make secularism bad if a influence is good ? so as much as a majority can influence a secular system that much better it is ? is that you believe ?


you have to decided first..which is good ?

majority religion influencing state laws as much as it can( and thus effectively bringing a minority under the rule of majority religions rule and beliefs.


or where state laws don't force other religion's law/ belief system on a citizen who doesn't follow or believe in that particular religion ?

hope this time you understand and answer directly to my questions..I will take nothing other than direct answers and explanations as your incapability to support your arguments logically.

Let me put it into two phases, first creation of laws and then implementation. A law cannot be judged until its not implemented with a best resources of state. We have seen many secular countries where laws are not well implemented that is why rates of
rapes, violence, deception, murder or robbery etc is much greater then the state with religious laws and that is a fact. Just exclude war-torn countries as they are the totally different case, and international politics have a lot effect on their internal politics , At that rate how you prove any religious law wrong? And majority is not the case, here is the case is with effectiveness , that how much a law have helped the society . Islam don’t force anyone , It do have a law for state where it treats each and every of its citizens equally. So I don’t see your points have scored much here.

 

[notsuperstitious]

You are funny

proposal: law is perfect
experiment: PERSON FAILs
BLAME: LAW because person is dead so cant resurrect him and blame him

Persons fail for thousand + years means experiment fail, proposal rejected. Since proposal is not reasonably proved, can not be used in debate. So when I give historical facts you can not offer that proposal as defence.

But as I said u MUST believe and do not have any other choice. The tragedy of religion.

 

[Agnostic_Indian]

Let me put it into two phases, first creation of laws and then implementation. A law cannot be judged until its not implemented with a best resources of state. We have seen many secular countries where laws are not well implemented that is why rates of
rapes, violence, deception, murder or robbery etc is much greater then the state with religious laws and that is a fact. Just exclude war-torn countries as they are the totally different case, and international politics have a lot effect on their internal politics , At that rate how you prove any religious law wrong? And majority is not the case, here is the case is with effectiveness , that how much a law have helped the society . Islam don’t force anyone , It do have a law for state where it treats each and every of its citizens equally. So I don’t see your points have scored much here.

the argument that Islam treats everybody equal collapses on the face of it by " making Islam a state law and that itself violates that argument of your's in the first place.

 

[K-Xeroid]

This is the condition of Islam in Pakistan. First make Pakistan a society where people can follow one Islam than talk about implementing Islam. It's useless you talk about implementing islam without correcting the society first.Instead of Parroting like a moron, first create a unity among Muslims than Islam can be implemented. Without Unity Islamic system is totally useless and will create further bloodshed.

First bold part is dangerous where public try to impose his thought on others , Unite faith in diverse south asian sub-continent wouldn’t be applicable , This matter having roots in back in past of our history when lack of proper communication had created differences, plus so many hypocrite (tahir qadris) had born in that era who spread their mental based faith in the name of islam had caused much damaged to our national unity. Here today Sunnis talk about Sharia laws while shias want Nifaz-e- Jafferia law which creates conflict. At that rate even treating one party with bullet and other party with charm will absolutely led us to bloodshed.

 

[Sugarcane]

No Sir Quran and Hadees are both books of guidance and law Sir and we have to implement those Laws Sir

Quran - Hadith - Ijtihad === Muslim trinity.

Addition of 2 led us to the state where currently we are.

 

[Bang Galore]

@Agnostic_Indian, @fateh71,

I see a big boulder and I see your heads...... a good outcome is certainly not likely. It doesn't matter how good the signal is if there is no antenna to receive it.

 

[K-Xeroid]

the argument that Islam treats everybody equal collapses on the face of it by " making Islam a state law and that itself violates that argument of your's in the first place.

I've never said to impose it, I said it have a proper way so that can create stability in your society , Its majority decision that wat law they want in their country . Their is no point of imposing it with bullets but I do save a right to argue and I'm not arguing unnecessarily their are examples of many secular countries in today's world where millions have killed in the name of power politics.

@Agnostic_Indian, @fateh71,

I see a big boulder and I see your heads...... a good outcome is certainly not likely. It doesn't matter how good the signal is if there is no antenna to receive it.

I respect your experience , but just look at india itself, we even cannot send our women cricket team to play in maharshtra, it proves that your laws are not well implemented or not as effective in few states of india.

 

[Agnostic_Indian]

I've never said to impose it, I said it have a proper way so that can create stability in your society , Its majority decision that wat law they want in their country . Their is no point of imposing it with bullets but I do save a right to argue and I'm not arguing unnecessarily their are examples of many secular countries in today's world where millions have killed in the name of power politics.

I think you didn't get what I was arguing about.
secularism has nothing to do with law and order, social welfare etc.secularism means separation of church and state..that's it.

you can implement stricter laws, law enforcement, welfare,education or anything good for the country..nobody is stopping you..it's totally a different subject.

 

[INDIC]

@Agnostic_Indian, @fateh71,

I see a big boulder and I see your heads...... a good outcome is certainly not likely. It doesn't matter how good the signal is if there is no antenna to receive it.

I asked Zarvan if all human being are equal since birth irrespective of religion and race but he always skipped my question.

 

[Sugarcane]

Nothing to do with zoroastrianism. At first there were 50 nimaz ( prayer 50 times a day ) fixed by Allah for followers of Last prophet Muhammad (PBUH) during Meraj but then when Prophet Muhammad came to Prophet Issa (AS) [Jesus] , on one of the 7 skies, he (Jesus) asked from our Prophet about the number of prayers fixed for Muslims upon knowing these are 50 the Jesus asked our Prophet to request Allah for lessening these as Ummat e rasool wont be as strong as earlier humanbeings during times of rest of the Prophets. This repeated few times till the number of Prayers reduced to 5 times a by Allah.


Thats how 5 times a day prayers since Islam is a religion of nature and does not ask something which is a burden on human.

all religious practices of Islam were already established before the Quran's revelation, Prophet (PBUH) reinstated those and purged the corruption.

 

[K-Xeroid]

I think you didn't get what I was arguing about.
secularism has nothing to do with law and order, social welfare etc.secularism means separation of church and state..that's it.

you can implement stricter laws, law enforcement, welfare,education or anything good for the country..nobody is stopping you..it's totally a different subject.

And My point is A law should be judged by its effectivenesss not ideologies or faith. It don't mean that we are gon'na create assemblies in mosque. their is always a proper and seperate way for everything .

 

[Sugarcane]

This is the condition of Islam in Pakistan. First make Pakistan a society where people can follow one Islam than talk about implementing Islam. It's useless you talk about implementing islam without correcting the society first.Instead of Parroting like a moron, first create a unity among Muslims than Islam can be implemented. Without Unity Islamic system is totally useless and will create further bloodshed.

Majority of Muslims are not Muslims, unless Muslim revert back to original message Quran only, forget about Islam implementation. Once you start following Quran yourself, Islam will be implemented automatically.

 

[Bang Galore]

I respect your experience , but just look at india itself, we even cannot send our women cricket team to play in maharshtra, it proves that your laws are not well implemented or not as effective in few states of india.

I think you are confusing matters. Secularism has nothing to do with allowing/welcoming Pakistanis to India. It is purely reflected in the treatment of Indian citizens by the Indian state & whether or not it allows everyone an equal opportunity in as much as they are not by law barred from reaching/achieving positions that others can(non secular positions connected to religions excepted).

There is a law against murder. Murders still happen, don't they? Do you think that the criminal law is wrong? Or do you just hold that it is an individual failure inspite of the system? Regardless of how poor the enforcement of the law is, the system is open to correction & individuals affected can seek redressal. There are no state mandated laws which promote discrimination. Just like there is some racism in the U.S./Europe even when the state has laws prohibiting it.