‘Admitting you are a secularist can get you killed in Pakistan’

[Dubious]

I do solemnly affirm..

So he can say that and lie coz he is not afraid of anything!

or should i put it this way, how much truth will he say by saying that?

 

[TheSeeker]

Ok i would debate.Today Islamic countries are in like much more than hell.Killing each other ,terrorism,suicidal blast,low human development index,less development and so on so on.On the oter hand,non islamic countries like US,ney zealand,europe,china,japan,etc are in much more developed and are happy,

 

[Dubious]

Ok i would debate.Today Islamic countries are in like much more than hell.Killing each other ,terrorism,suicidal blast,low human development index,less development and so on so on.On the oter hand,non islamic countries like US,ney zealand,europe,china,japan,etc are in much more developed and are happy,

open a new thread not here!
@chandan

the question was regarding a religion called Islam not what people practice and give it the name Islam...

From what you posted it is obvious you just wanted to let out some heat ....

 

[Azazel]

So he can say that and lie coz he is not afraid of anything!

or should i put it this way, how much truth will he say by saying that?

If he broke the oath he will be committing a perjury and will be kicked out of the office.That's what really matters.Religious people also lie,having faith in God have never stopped politicians from lying.

 

[Dubious]

If he broke the oath he will be committing a perjury and will be kicked out of the office.That's what really matters.Religious people also lie,having faith in God have never stopped politicians from lying.

wrong religious people would not lie people who follow a blind religion would....or people who just follow a label because they were born with it...

I am more interested in conscience

 

[Azazel]

wrong religious people would not lie people who follow a blind religion would....or people who just follow a label because they were born with it...

I am more interested in conscience

Wrong,people with ethics don't lie.You don't really have to believe in any religion for that.Ethics and morality have evolved over the years as a part of our sociological evolution.Conscience is also a part of that.

 

[Patriots]

Yes, you can be secular without atheism, only thing you need tolerance towards other and no interfere in others' religious affairs.

@Gigawatt
I think you don't know meaning of atheism ... Kindly see below:

Atheism is, in a broad sense, the rejection of belief in the existence of deities. In a narrower sense, atheism is specifically the position that there are no deities. Most inclusively, atheism is simply the absence of belief that any deities exist. Atheism is contrasted with theism, which in its most general form is the belief that at least one deity exists.
The term atheism originated from the Greek ἄθεος (atheos), meaning "without god(s)", used as a pejorative term applied to those thought to reject the gods worshipped by the larger society. With the spread of freethought, skeptical inquiry, and subsequent increase in criticism of religion, application of the term narrowed in scope. The first individuals to identify themselves using the word "atheist" lived in the 18th century.

Atheism - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[haviZsultan]

TTP doesnt say that neither Bilour and malala have anything to do with secularism.

TTP terrorists target everyone they have killed thousands of Muslims rather devoted ones in Mosques.

I never say anything without proof. ET article: Oct 9 2012

SWAT: The Tehreek-i-Taliban Pakistan (TTP) which attacked National Award Peace winner Malala Yousafzai on Tuesday have said that they will target her again if she survives because she was a “secular-minded lady”.

You are right that Taliban are attacking anyone and everyone... but u see people dislike secularists-Zarvan has been stating I and others like me are kuffars openly though when it comes to debating with Pro-American guys he is running faster than anyone can just in case he gets in trouble. I fearlessly defend foreign policy. What the Taliban are doing is trying to utilize public sentiment and create an environment like Salman Taseer killing where everyone supports their stupidity. For example people were taking pictures of Malala with Holbrooke and taking part in the scandalous finger-pointing against her claiming she is CIA. She never stated secular sentiment and even criticized liberals and ANP liberals who do not believe in Pakistan.

About Bilour

Taliban had announced in the past that they will target ANP and MQM because of their secular views and their enmity towards the Taliban.

They also stated directly they killed him because he was "secular"... I know its a little hyped up as all things seem to be in the media but we have to at least debate the concept and not start labelling other people Kuffar who promote the concept. On one side @FaujHistorian already declaring me kaffir for opposition to US policy. On another we have this. Secularists have it tough.

See the thing is I am not a denialist and feel I have a duty to solve Pakistan's problems which makes me suggest this idea. Accepting there is an issue is better than suffering consequences later. If we had accepted in 1980's that Pakistan was going on the wrong trajectory we could have stopped things from deteriorating or going to where they are now.

 

[Patriots]

What do you mean completely secular.There are no scale to measure the secularism.You people are so ignorant you can never understand the most aspects of secularism.

Here is a good argument about Secularism viz-a-viz Religious beliefs."Secularism is not an argument against religion,it is one independent of it. It does not question the pretensions of religion; it advances others. Secularism does not say there is no light or guidance elsewhere, but maintains that there is light and guidance in secular truth."

Their are no laws in Islam which says all state laws must be derived from Quran and Sunnah.This are all modern Islamist ideologies.

@Azazel
Neither you know Islamic ideology nor you have knowledge about secularism ... First see below definition of secularism:

Secularism is the principle of separation of government institutions, and the persons mandated to represent the State, from religious institutions and religious dignitaries. In one sense, secularism may assert the right to be free from religious rule and teachings, and the right to freedom from governmental imposition of religion upon the people within a state that is neutral on matters of belief. In another sense, it refers to the view that human activities and decisions, especially political ones, should be unbiased by religious influence. Some scholars are now arguing that the very idea of secularism will change.

Secularism - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

In pure Islamic state no one would be greater than Quran & Sunnah ... Quran tell us all rules to spend a human life ... And Sunnah explains us in detail about these rules ..

 

[SQ8]

Sir in Islam either you are with Islam or you are with kufr that kufr can be of some religion or new kufr of secularism but that will be kufr and the denial of Islam and orders of ALLAH and his PROPHET SAW and in Islam state can't be neutral and even many secular say you can't be full secular until you are Atheist

And hence we conclude that your understanding of Islam is being misled as your condition is that you are unable to explain any of your arguments beyond an initial tagline.

Yes, you are either with Islam or with Kufr.. but that does not mean that being a Muslim you ignore the dying or starving Kafir. It the literal translation of Bismillah-Ar-Rehman Ar-Rahim..
"Benificiant/Gracious" and "Merciful".
It is the basic lack of understanding of even this that has Muslims still wondering why on earth Allah has rewarded the west will all the progress while they still rot even when having all the bounties on earth.
The Graciousness of God has NOTHING to do with Muslims.. as it is for all Mankind.. and he rewards all those who call to him and work hard..
Only the Mercy which is for the hereafter is reserved for Muslims.. but then that is a different debate.

The same principle applies to the Islamic state when it comes to its Welfare and Justice and services.
The Islamic state cannot be secular because its ideals are inspired by the Quran and Sunnah.
However, a secular attitude towards issues such as employment.. welfare and others can be adopted SINCE.. these issues require an Islamic state to be impartial and irreligious in judgement.
Which means that an Islamic state shall not discriminate against another religion when it comes to their welfare and rights.
Those confused with the concept of Dhimmis and Jizya will always bring objections.. but do not realize that it is nothing more than tax and the equivalent of what is Zakat for Muslims. Infact, it is originally intended to be MORE lenient on non-Muslims within a Muslim state than on Muslims as they are considered to be a minority and under protection.

How Islamic states are implemented and how some states that claim to be Islamic are in reality are two different things.
Many of these western "secular" states actually embody principles of fairness and equality that were part and parcel of the initial implementation of an Islamic state.

 

[KS]

On the other hand, monarchs, as well as democratic governments, have been using religion to strengthen their rule for centuries. However, there have been a few prominent rulers, including the founder of the Mughal dynasty, who had grown worried over the amalgamation of religion with state affairs, said I A Rehman, the secretary general of the Human Rights Commission of Pakistan. “For democracy to survive, it is necessary for the state to stay neutral when it came to religion.”

Anybody explain this ?

 

[Patriots]

Ok i would debate.Today Islamic countries are in like much more than hell.Killing each other ,terrorism,suicidal blast,low human development index,less development and so on so on.On the oter hand,non islamic countries like US,ney zealand,europe,china,japan,etc are in much more developed and are happy,

Kindly name such Islamic countries which you quoted ..

 

[aakash_2410]

Erm.. What is secularism though?

Western concept of secularism is 'Separation of Church and state.'

But for me secularism is 'Sarva Dharma Sam Bhav' meaning mutual respect for all the religions? And I don't see how this can against God's laws?

 

[haviZsultan]

Accepting an issue is the precursor to resolving it. Secular-minded people are indeed seen as a fruity target and are specifically targeted because of their loyalty to secular concepts. Also secularism does not come with army and ISI bashing. Some people have made it a habit and destroy the name of each secular person. It is a very noble concept and is an attempt to look at the failures of Pakistani society critically. These are some points to ponder:

Benefits of Secularism for Pakistan (In point Format)

In recent days I was having a very constructive debate with a very knowledgeable person about the benefits of Secularism for a society such as Pakistan, where people are judged by how much or how little people follow their religion. Here imposing ones brand of Islam on the other is common and I argued for Secularism while this person argued for the intricacies of Islamic law.


I have already written an article on secularism and will not go into detail but here I will present the argument for secularism in points compared to the disadvantages of a poorly functioning "Islamic Republic" which may turn out to be very useful.



Problems with a dysfunctional "Islamic Republic"

Misuse of laws meant to safeguard Islam for the personal interests of people-ie the Blasphemy law to frame innocent Muslims, Christians and Hindus on false charges of blasphemy in order to settle disputes.

{Qoute} An example of how this law is misused was the case of Mohammad Imran who was arrested in Faisalabad for blasphemy on the 28th of October 2007. He was falsely blamed because of a personal argument. After being arrested he was first tortured by the police, then the inmates and later he was placed in solitary confinement without anyone looking after his injuries. He was only released in April 2009 after being declared innocent. {Qoute}

No laws for the rich and powerful. All laws apply for the weak. For example a rich man can drink or do whatever he wants despite not being allowed to do so in his religion, without any fear... even rape women without ever being punished but a poor man is always punished. Is this justice?

{QUOTE}Those before you went astray, for, when one of the committed a crime and he was a great man, they would not punish him, and when he was a poor man they would execute the punishment (Bu: 86:12){QUOTE}

Differences in the belief of Islam-which Islam do we want. What do we do if some factions do not agree with the Islam we are currently following? Should it be Wahabism, Sufism, Deobandi or Hanafi Islam? How will we deal with differing interpretations which will cause more and more confusion?


When religion gets infused into society, fanaticism and terrorism are only by-products. This is why religion should be a personal matter kept to a person's house and his place of worship. It should never be infused into governance and the state.



Muslims killing Muslims. The divide caused by the differences in our beliefs has caused a vast chasm among the Muslims. This chasm is so great that it is now leading to us killing each other. Not a day passes in Pakistan when a Muslim is not killed by another Muslim. The Taliban, Jundullah, Sipah E Sahaba, Lashker E Janghvi, Sipah E Mohammad... what else? In distant Norway there's Anders Behring Breivik. Infusing religion into politics has only led to death and destruction.



People begin using the excuse of religion to increase their power and authority. For example there are over 30 Taliban commanders in the tribal belts each vying for power and influence. In the end the struggle for Islam becomes a cruel struggle for power and influence.



When a country decides to judge its people by how much or how little they follow their religion it fails to focus on other important things such as science, education, economy and growth. Ignoring these sectors has often led to decline in Islamic societies. It is causing Pakistan to decline today with the GDP growth rate that is incapable of creating new jobs for a rising population.



Islamist thought can only cause gradual factionalism and division as people get divided into sects and various groups while each religious group crowds to his or her own religious group for protection decreasing people to people contact between sects and religions. For example the blasphemy laws in Pakistan. A man was shot for questioning a man-made law that has led to the murder of innocent muslims, christians and hindus alike on false charges of blasphemy. The law simply cannot be erased but it can only get worse because of Islamist influence who refuse to allow any changes to the law. What is next? Declaring all Hindus Kaffir and declaring them wajib ul qatil?


Despite trying to impose Islam for over 60 years Pakistan has miserably failed. Today the rich can get away with any crime. Bribes are taken and given with impunity and justice can be sold. Pakistan has failed to impose Islam in every single aspect. Pakistanis have free access to any website, the younger generation can have intercourse when it likes with streets such as Napier in Karachi and Heera Mandi in Lahore. Drinks are easily available. No law in reality has been imposed. Pakistan is a broke, failed Islamic Republic in every sense of the word. Isn't it better to stop trying to impose religion on everyone now and just give up?



More than a Billion Muslims live in abject poverty. Has having an "Islamic Republic" helped them in any way? Is it more important to give the poor man food and shelter rather than telling him how to behave in his daily life?

Benefits of Secularism.

By allowing freedom and giving each man his dignity we give everyone their rights. A person has the right to believe what he or she wishes and can stand for whatever he believes in. Islam itself allows us this freedom:

{QUOTE}"Let there be no compulsion in religion: Truth stands out clear from Error: whoever rejects Taghut (evil) and believes in Allah hath grasped the most trust worthy hand-hold, that never breaks. And Allah heareth and knoweth all things. " (Qur'an 2:256)] {QUOTE}



Secularism will not degrade Islam but will instead allow it to flourish as secularism means the equal treatment of each and every religion. By equally treating Muslims we do away with biases a non religious or non-muslim resident would suffer yet we do not discriminate against the Muslims.



Secularism will do away with the problems in an Islamist system relating to which 'Islam' to impose when Muslims are divided into so many various sects and groups each believing something different. Here everyone will be equal.



Secularism if widely accepted by the Nation, will prevent commanders from using religion for their own gains and power. When the people will make religion a personal matter religious violence is sure to decline, allowing us to create a tolerant Nation. Something we currently lack.



Secularism will actually cause the growth of Islam and its evolution. In the past our rulers won the respect of minorities and their people and as a result Islam spread far and wide. Today we have forgotten the very actions of these leaders.

{Qoute}Taxation in the Caliphate is on excess wealth and not income, and there are no regressive taxes like VAT. The only taxes on companies are the agricultural land taxes (ushur and kharaj) that are a percentage of the agricultural produce or the land value. Non-agricultural companies do not pay this. Muslim owned companies will also pay the alms tax (zakat), but non-Muslim companies are exempt from this.

Non-Muslim men must pay a nominal tax called Jizya that gives them full citizenship rights, exempting them from National Service and taxes specific to Muslims such as zakat . Jizya is means tested and there are different bands for different levels of wealth. Caliph Omar imposed three bands for the Jizya tax - 4 dinars (£108) for the rich, 2 dinars (£54) for the middle class and 1 dinar (£27) for the poor. The Jizya tax rate is much lower than that of zakat, therefore the tax burden of non-Muslims is lower than that of Muslims in the Caliphate. {QUOTE}



Secularism will allow us to concentrate on bigger and better things. Like science, technology, culture and education which are much needed in Muslim states. Secularism has its obvious benefits because when religion is out of the equation we are not stuck on questions like the height of the shalwar.



Today Muslims are trying to kill each other and are at each others throats. Isn't anything better than Muslims blowing Muslims up? Shouldn't we try another system, something that actually works now? According to stats around 1 Million or more Muslims were killed (Most were killed by Muslims themselves) in the past 10 years. Isn't it time to reflect and judge whether the Islamist's system is actually working for us?



Secularism does not eliminate Islam or destroy it in anyway. People believing Islam cannot thrive under a secular system must ask the same question of 14 Million Muslims living in Europe. Secularism offers equality to everyone. This is the basic ideal of Secularism.

For easier reading go to my website page: Havi Sultan's webspace

In any case the purpose of the thread is not to promote the concept of secularism but to get the point across that when the majority is not safe... the minority always suffers whether that minority is ideological ore religious.

Accepting an issue is the precursor to resolving it. Secular-minded people are indeed seen as a fruity target and are specifically targeted because of their loyalty to secular concepts. Also secularism does not come with army and ISI bashing. Some people have made it a habit and destroy the name of each secular person. It is a very noble concept and is an attempt to look at the failures of Pakistani society critically. These are some points to ponder:

Benefits of Secularism for Pakistan (In point Format)

In recent days I was having a very constructive debate with a very knowledgeable person about the benefits of Secularism for a society such as Pakistan, where people are judged by how much or how little people follow their religion. Here imposing ones brand of Islam on the other is common and I argued for Secularism while this person argued for the intricacies of Islamic law.


I have already written an article on secularism and will not go into detail but here I will present the argument for secularism in points compared to the disadvantages of a poorly functioning "Islamic Republic" which may turn out to be very useful.



Problems with a dysfunctional "Islamic Republic"

Misuse of laws meant to safeguard Islam for the personal interests of people-ie the Blasphemy law to frame innocent Muslims, Christians and Hindus on false charges of blasphemy in order to settle disputes.

{Qoute} An example of how this law is misused was the case of Mohammad Imran who was arrested in Faisalabad for blasphemy on the 28th of October 2007. He was falsely blamed because of a personal argument. After being arrested he was first tortured by the police, then the inmates and later he was placed in solitary confinement without anyone looking after his injuries. He was only released in April 2009 after being declared innocent. {Qoute}

No laws for the rich and powerful. All laws apply for the weak. For example a rich man can drink or do whatever he wants despite not being allowed to do so in his religion, without any fear... even rape women without ever being punished but a poor man is always punished. Is this justice?

{QUOTE}Those before you went astray, for, when one of the committed a crime and he was a great man, they would not punish him, and when he was a poor man they would execute the punishment (Bu: 86:12){QUOTE}

Differences in the belief of Islam-which Islam do we want. What do we do if some factions do not agree with the Islam we are currently following? Should it be Wahabism, Sufism, Deobandi or Hanafi Islam? How will we deal with differing interpretations which will cause more and more confusion?


When religion gets infused into society, fanaticism and terrorism are only by-products. This is why religion should be a personal matter kept to a person's house and his place of worship. It should never be infused into governance and the state.



Muslims killing Muslims. The divide caused by the differences in our beliefs has caused a vast chasm among the Muslims. This chasm is so great that it is now leading to us killing each other. Not a day passes in Pakistan when a Muslim is not killed by another Muslim. The Taliban, Jundullah, Sipah E Sahaba, Lashker E Janghvi, Sipah E Mohammad... what else? In distant Norway there's Anders Behring Breivik. Infusing religion into politics has only led to death and destruction.



People begin using the excuse of religion to increase their power and authority. For example there are over 30 Taliban commanders in the tribal belts each vying for power and influence. In the end the struggle for Islam becomes a cruel struggle for power and influence.



When a country decides to judge its people by how much or how little they follow their religion it fails to focus on other important things such as science, education, economy and growth. Ignoring these sectors has often led to decline in Islamic societies. It is causing Pakistan to decline today with the GDP growth rate that is incapable of creating new jobs for a rising population.



Islamist thought can only cause gradual factionalism and division as people get divided into sects and various groups while each religious group crowds to his or her own religious group for protection decreasing people to people contact between sects and religions. For example the blasphemy laws in Pakistan. A man was shot for questioning a man-made law that has led to the murder of innocent muslims, christians and hindus alike on false charges of blasphemy. The law simply cannot be erased but it can only get worse because of Islamist influence who refuse to allow any changes to the law. What is next? Declaring all Hindus Kaffir and declaring them wajib ul qatil?


Despite trying to impose Islam for over 60 years Pakistan has miserably failed. Today the rich can get away with any crime. Bribes are taken and given with impunity and justice can be sold. Pakistan has failed to impose Islam in every single aspect. Pakistanis have free access to any website, the younger generation can have intercourse when it likes with streets such as Napier in Karachi and Heera Mandi in Lahore. Drinks are easily available. No law in reality has been imposed. Pakistan is a broke, failed Islamic Republic in every sense of the word. Isn't it better to stop trying to impose religion on everyone now and just give up?



More than a Billion Muslims live in abject poverty. Has having an "Islamic Republic" helped them in any way? Is it more important to give the poor man food and shelter rather than telling him how to behave in his daily life?

Benefits of Secularism.

By allowing freedom and giving each man his dignity we give everyone their rights. A person has the right to believe what he or she wishes and can stand for whatever he believes in. Islam itself allows us this freedom:

{QUOTE}"Let there be no compulsion in religion: Truth stands out clear from Error: whoever rejects Taghut (evil) and believes in Allah hath grasped the most trust worthy hand-hold, that never breaks. And Allah heareth and knoweth all things. " (Qur'an 2:256)] {QUOTE}



Secularism will not degrade Islam but will instead allow it to flourish as secularism means the equal treatment of each and every religion. By equally treating Muslims we do away with biases a non religious or non-muslim resident would suffer yet we do not discriminate against the Muslims.



Secularism will do away with the problems in an Islamist system relating to which 'Islam' to impose when Muslims are divided into so many various sects and groups each believing something different. Here everyone will be equal.



Secularism if widely accepted by the Nation, will prevent commanders from using religion for their own gains and power. When the people will make religion a personal matter religious violence is sure to decline, allowing us to create a tolerant Nation. Something we currently lack.



Secularism will actually cause the growth of Islam and its evolution. In the past our rulers won the respect of minorities and their people and as a result Islam spread far and wide. Today we have forgotten the very actions of these leaders.

{Qoute}Taxation in the Caliphate is on excess wealth and not income, and there are no regressive taxes like VAT. The only taxes on companies are the agricultural land taxes (ushur and kharaj) that are a percentage of the agricultural produce or the land value. Non-agricultural companies do not pay this. Muslim owned companies will also pay the alms tax (zakat), but non-Muslim companies are exempt from this.

Non-Muslim men must pay a nominal tax called Jizya that gives them full citizenship rights, exempting them from National Service and taxes specific to Muslims such as zakat . Jizya is means tested and there are different bands for different levels of wealth. Caliph Omar imposed three bands for the Jizya tax - 4 dinars (£108) for the rich, 2 dinars (£54) for the middle class and 1 dinar (£27) for the poor. The Jizya tax rate is much lower than that of zakat, therefore the tax burden of non-Muslims is lower than that of Muslims in the Caliphate. {QUOTE}



Secularism will allow us to concentrate on bigger and better things. Like science, technology, culture and education which are much needed in Muslim states. Secularism has its obvious benefits because when religion is out of the equation we are not stuck on questions like the height of the shalwar.



Today Muslims are trying to kill each other and are at each others throats. Isn't anything better than Muslims blowing Muslims up? Shouldn't we try another system, something that actually works now? According to stats around 1 Million or more Muslims were killed (Most were killed by Muslims themselves) in the past 10 years. Isn't it time to reflect and judge whether the Islamist's system is actually working for us?



Secularism does not eliminate Islam or destroy it in anyway. People believing Islam cannot thrive under a secular system must ask the same question of 14 Million Muslims living in Europe. Secularism offers equality to everyone. This is the basic ideal of Secularism.

For easier reading go to my website page: Havi Sultan's webspace

In any case the purpose of the thread is not to promote the concept of secularism but to get the point across that when the majority is not safe... the minority always suffers whether that minority is ideological or religious.

 

[Patriots]

Then why are you using computer and internet hypocrite,they also came outside Islam and they should also be kuffar.So does cars planes everything,they all have no connection to Islam.

Jahil jahil hota hai ..

We debating islamic rules & law not inventions ...

Sorry dear, You don't know Islam. Give me any example where Prophet (PBUH) and 4 Caliphs differentiated between religion while running state affairs?

They didn't differentiated anywhere ... They had run Islamic state according to Allah's law ..