Ababeel SSM - Pakistan gains MIRV technology.

[Cookie Monster]

Simple question.
Did UN, any other nation, even Pakistan, till date has declared Mukti Bahini as a terror organisation?


LET> From Wiki
On 28 March 2001, in Statutory Instrument 2001 No. 1261, British Home Secretary Jack Straw designated the group a Proscribed Terrorist Organization under the Terrorism Act 2000.

On 5 December 2001, the group was added to the Terrorist Exclusion List. In a notification dated 26 December 2001, United States Secretary of State Colin Powell, designated Lashkar-e-Taiba a Foreign Terrorist Organisation.

Lashkar-e-Taiba was banned in Pakistan on 12 January 2002.

It is banned in India as a designated terrorist group under the Unlawful Activities (Prevention) Act.

It was listed as a terrorist organisation in Australia under the Security Legislation Amendment (Terrorism) Act 2002 on 11 April 2003 and was re-listed on 11 April 2005 and 31 March 2007.

On 2 May 2008 it was placed on the Consolidated List established and maintained by the Committee established by the United Nations Security Council Resolution 1267 as an entity associated with al-Qaeda. The report also proscribed Jamaat-ud-Dawa as a front group of the LeT.[53] Bruce Riedel, an expert on terrorism, believes that LeT with the support of its Pakistani backers is more dangerous than al-Qaeda.

Please do present one shred of evidence that shows Pakistan moved in UN or elsewhere to classify Mukti Jodhas as terrorists....

so if an organization isn't declared a terrorist organization by an arbitrary number of countries or UN, its terrorist actions are completely ok?
I guess the Pakistanis who lost their lives in Mukti Bahini attacks were not worth as much as those Indians who lost their lives in LeT and JeM attacks.

U remind me of this previous White House press secretary Josh Earnest talking about Afghan Taliban. I remember listening to the same semantics from him that u r relying on. Let me find it...

Here we go:

Josh Earnest: “They do carry out tactics that are akin to terrorism. They do pursue terror attacks in an effort to try to advance their agenda [but] they have a different classification.”
Josh Earnest: "[They are] different than an organization like Al-Qaeda that has a much broader global aspiration to carry out acts of violence and acts of terror against Americans and American interests all around the globe.”

Link below if u wanna verify for urself.
http://abcnews.go.com/Politics/taliban-terrorists-white-house/story?id=28588120

^^ that different classification must make it ok. Its all sunshine and unicorns for the ppl dying at the hands of "non terror" organisations.

I can see that this discussion would go nowhere so let's just end it here.

 

[MilSpec]

The only BS opinion that's being presented is coming from you with your alternative view of the issues we are discussing. Modi publicly lent support to Baluch rebels. His government is in the process of granting asylum to Brahamdagh Bugti- a man designated a......ced terrorism in Pakistan- a claim repeatedly made by Pakistanis.

Just out of curiosity, when the Indian PM openly says his country will help the BLA- a terrorist organization that carries despicable acts of terror throughout Pakistan,

Provide reference to the above. if not then the entire premise is based on BS. it's as simple as that.

so if an organization isn't declared a terrorist organization by an arbitrary number of countries or UN, its terrorist actions are completely ok?
I guess the Pakistanis who lost their lives in Mukti Bahini attacks were not worth as much as those Indians who lost their lives in LeT and JeM attacks.

U remind me of this previous White House secretary Josh Earnest talking about Afghan Taliban. I remember listening to the same semantics from him that u r relying on. Let me find it...

Here we go:

Josh Earnest: “They do carry out tactics that are akin to terrorism. They do pursue terror attacks in an effort to try to advance their agenda [but] they have a different classification.”
Josh Earnest: "[They are] different than an organization like Al-Qaeda that has a much broader global aspiration to carry out acts of violence and acts of terror against Americans and American interests all around the globe.”

Link below if u wanna verify for urself.
http://abcnews.go.com/Politics/taliban-terrorists-white-house/story?id=28588120

I can see that this discussion would go nowhere so let's just end it here.

Again same simple question.

Has Pakistan, your own country, your own government, successive military and civilian variety EVER declared Mukti Bahini as a terror outfit?

 

[Cookie Monster]

Provide reference to the above. if not then the entire premise is based on BS. it's as simple as that.


Again same simple question.

Has Pakistan, your own country, your own government, successive military and civilian variety EVER declared Mukti Bahini as a terror outfit?

India doesn't sponsor terrorism. Pakistan is a menace that sponsors terrorism. Business as usual...carry on.

 

[F86 Saber]

Provide reference to the above. if not then the entire premise is based on BS. it's as simple as that.


Again same simple question.

Has Pakistan, your own country, your own government, successive military and civilian variety EVER declared Mukti Bahini as a terror outfit?

You are stuck on one point ignoring what @Cookie Monster tried to explain, Mukti were never declared as terrorists because they achieved what they wanted in a very short time with ample support from India i.e separation of Bangladesh after which there was no need for them to be violent. If the same struggle had been continuing until now, they would have been declared terrorists as well.

Similarly, had Kashmir been freed immediately after 1947, LeT, JuD and others would never even have existed hence no terrorism charges.

 

[Falcon26]

Provide reference to the above. if not then the entire premise is based on BS. it's as simple as that.


Again same simple question.

Has Pakistan, your own country, your own government, successive military and civilian variety EVER declared Mukti Bahini as a terror outfit?

LOL what a pathetic way to back off from a debate. Absolutely no response to the rest of the post, just random underline of a point. Simply avoid what you have no response for. Simplistic tactic.

But sure let's assume Modi intends to carry out a hunger strike to support the Baluch groups that he's inviting to his country and who have become celebrities on the Indian media.

 

[Cookie Monster]

You are stuck on one point ignoring what @Cookie Monster tried to explain, Mukti were never declared as terrorists because they achieved what they wanted in a very short time with ample support from India i.e separation of Bangladesh after which there was no need for them to be violent. If the same struggle had been continuing until now, they would have been declared terrorists as well.

Similarly, had Kashmir been freed immediately after 1947, LeT, JuD and others would never even have existed hence no terrorism charges.

I appreciate ur efforts of trying to break it down for him but I'm sure he already knows that. He is stuck on semantics on purpose bcuz if he was to go beyond that he would have to confront some harsh realities.

 

[MilSpec]

LOL what a pathetic way to back off from a debate. Absolutely no response to the rest of the post, just random underline of a point. Simply avoid what you have no response for. Simplistic tactic.

But sure let's assume Modi intends to carry out a hunger strike to support the Baluch groups that he's inviting to his country and who have become celebrities on the Indian media.

Back of from a fake debate? You wrote: when the Indian PM openly says his country will help the BLA- a terrorist organization : presenting it as a fact.
When asked about referencing the claim you want to slither away with usual personal attacks.

Post a reference to your claim or eat your own words.

 

[Shoaib Aziz]

Wow. Hatred makes people do crazy things. Everything about one's enemy should be belittled and mocked, enemy are a bunch of haphazard buffoons who must be the dumbest of the world!! How the hell Pakistanis can do research? Pakistan may be the first Asian country after Israel to become a member of CERN but how the hell can they learn Mathematics and Physics. Pioneering work in the cutting edge grand unification theory was also done by Pakistani physicists notable a village boy named Abdus Salam but this must be a Chinese missile with Arabic name. Pakistanis may have rose from 3% of union GDP in 1947 to 11 percent of combined GDP of India Pakistan and Bangladesh but, well, aren't they going to be a failed state? Pakistani beggar can only dream about competing with India.

 

[MilSpec]

You are stuck on one point ignoring what @Cookie Monster tried to explain, Mukti were never declared as terrorists because they achieved what they wanted in a very short time with ample support from India i.e separation of Bangladesh after which there was no need for them to be violent. If the same struggle had been continuing until now, they would have been declared terrorists as well.

Similarly, had Kashmir been freed immediately after 1947, LeT, JuD and others would never even have existed hence no terrorism charges.

The premise of the argument is equating conduct of India and Pakistan. The equation's variables being all of the Pakistan's proxies pitted as a subjective counter to Mukti bahini. The insistence being both guerrilla forces being different sides of the same terror coin. My point is quite simple that the argument is not valid because the comparison is between known Terrorist organisation recognised as such by multitude of nations around the world; and Mukti Bahini which even Pakistan, a nation that MB dealt the final blows to doesn't concede as a terrorist entity. You might perceive it as the same, and to you the argument may be valid, but India, bangladesh, UN and the rest of the world doesn't see it the same way.

 

[HRK]

Given that India has never initiated a unilateral war against any country,

1971 ... ??

it won't, unless there is some massive act of terror against India.

So Is there any way to established that 'EXPECTED' Terror attack will have no internal connection ???
& that they will be supported by elements (not talking about "non-state actors") situated outside the geographical boundary of India .... ???

Who is asking you to trust us? there is no need for you to trust us.

So there must not be any basis for any relation b/w the two NUCLEAR POWER (it does not even matter these will be good or bad) ....???

Who by the curse of history are enemy of each other ... ???

You don't want Mutual Survival .... ??

Or any Mutually Agreed Escalation Ladder ... to tackle the worst fears of Global community .... ??

Indian nationalism is has and always will be rooted in Secularism and Pluralism.

Hindu Tava ideology & Sangh Parrivar represent Secularism and Pluralism of INDIAN SOCIETY .... ??

By Singh Pariwar, I am guessing you are referring to Sangh Parrivar. Today what is known as Sangh Parrivar, when started as Hindu Mahasabha was the exact mirror image of the AIML, So understand this, at your worst prediction assume India is taken over by Sangh parrivar and Hindu nationalists,

The exact mirror of AIML was the Congress of Nehru & Gandhi, BTW if YOU a person sitting in US find it necessary to defend the Sangh Parrivar rather then realizing the potential danger & denying the need to have a mechanism to mitigate the risk which may arise anytime, anywhere ... then the DANGER IS MORE REAL AND MANY FOLDS then my assessment ....

Sir plz understand even if that AIML was the mother of all evils in India it no more in existence it no more RELEVANT to the points I am raising but Sangh Parrivar & BJP exist today they are relevant in today's scenario & EVEN IF THEY ARE ANGELS WE DON'T TRUST YOUR ANGELS

the result is it becomes a mirror image of Pakistan, as per your own account India at it's worst would be like Pakistan.

What I said was not in context in which you are reading, but even if you want to understand it in that manner then I will say

"I Know to survive in my hell, do you know to survive in yours" ....

It would be alarming for India to give up it's secular nature and become a Hindu Theocracy, or a religious Republic, like Pakistan. there indeed is a mechanism, it's called constitution of the republic. No matter which party is in power in India, it cannot change the constitution of against the wishes of the nation. Even if tomorrow a AIMIM 's chief Owaisi becomes India's Prime minister, india won't change into an Islamic state, that remains the guarantee of a constitution that is sacrosanct to the nation's judicial fabric.

The constitution of India is not a mutual agreed mechanism to tackle the issues I am talking; it's for Domestic Theater of Indian to serve the purpose to Constitutionalize the STATE, GOVERNANCE & ADMINISTRATION of India. for me it does not matter its Secular, Communal, Religious or Apartheid .... what matter is the ideology in practices & accepted in general masses .... so Sir plz honestly try to answer the question I asked previously

Can you deny that BJP & singh pariwar are religiously motivated political & social organizations ... ??

& Does they represent Secularism and Pluralism of India Society ... ??

Who is in Power in INDIA Representative of Secularism and Pluralism or Representative Religiously Motivated Neo Nationalism ideologist ... ??

Secondly Can you direct me any War Act under Indian constitution ... ???

Can Indian Constitution ensure that no POLITICIAN can initiate the war at his will ... ???

Plz answer these queries but keep in mind I am not part of your DOMESTIC AUDIENCE, & you are at INTERNATIONAL FORUM

Both countries are responsible for their own conduct.

Agreed but WHAT IF ONE ACT IRRESPONSIBLE .... ??

getting the drift what I am saying .... ??

Just to remind you We are talking the TOPIC RELATED TO NUCLEAR ISSUE (& I have highlighted all the relevant issue I have raised in debate) not the Constitution of India

Assuming that India will show immaturity and lack of strategic analysis while pakistan will, is contrarian to the track record of both the nations.

Sir I have posted an excerpt from third part in our private conversation .... was India showing restrain at that time ... ???

Then Why it can not happen again ... ??

Again we are at square one ....

What is the mechanism which can ensure that it will never happen again ... ???

Any Guarantee .... ??

When US & USSR despite not trusting each other can have such BRIDGES why INDIA & PAKISTAN could not have .... ???

No of threats on what? Absolutely India will retaliate if Indian interests come under attack from "Non State Actors" supported by your state Producers and Directors.

INDIA will retaliate to whom for what ....???

again back to the same situation & same relevant queries to the same old theories

So Is there any way to established that 'EXPECTED' Terror attack will have no internal connection ???

& that they will be supported by elements (not talking about "non-state actors") situated outside the geographical boundary of India .... ???

And MOST IMPORTANT QUESTIONS

INDIA IS THE ONLY COUNTRY WHO HAVE THE EXCLUSIVE RIGHT TO RETALIATE .... ???

NO OTHER COUNTRY HAVE THAT RIGHT .... ???

& WHAT INDIAN PLANNERS THINK OTHER WILL NOT RETALIATE .... ??

Which Doctrine to attack whom? India has never had a stated position on any combat doctrine. But what is has repeatedly stated is it's No-First use of Nuclear Weapons, Complete withdrawal of all chemical and Biological weapons. This like these are stated doctrines, other than that there is no stated doctrine of anything.

Should I remind you about this ...??
http://www.business-standard.com/article/current-affairs/army-chief-says-military-must-prepare-for-cold-start-117011301174_1.html

NFU policy .... ???
http://indianexpress.com/article/in...-use-nuclear-policy-adds-my-thinking-4369062/

http://economictimes.indiatimes.com...indias-nuke-doctrine/articleshow/55357808.cms

http://web.mit.edu/polisci/news/pdf/NarangFiveMyths.pdf

plz give a read to these links these will surely help .... AGAIN I DOES NOT BELONG TO YOUR DOMESTIC AUDIENCE

I couldn't decipher the above lines.

[/QUOTE]

& this is not my problem

Regards,

 

[randomradio]

your entire previous post, completely based on the premise of tracking satellites is incorrect because those satellites have transmitters to where they are constantly giving their own location to the ground stations.

Horribly wrong. Radar is used to detect even junk orbiting earth.

Do yourself a favor and read up on limitations of THAAD which is probably at par with the s500 if not more advanced.

THAAD is similar to the S-400.

N. Korea and S. Korea are right next to each other so it's a similar situation AND N. Korea's missiles are not as advanced nor fast as ours, basically glorified SCUD like missiles that have been fine tuned to be a little more accurate, that's basically it. They had to downgrade the effectiveness of THAAD in 1 hit 1 kill probability against even such a primitive missile from 75% to 90% based on how many N. Korean SCUDs are launched.

Which world are you from? North Korea sold ballistic missile technology to Pakistan. The Ghauri 1 was a Korean Nodong. Basically SCUD.

They can ONLY make more effective by (guess what) INTRODUCING SATELLITE based IR detection!

What shit. We already have these systems.

So a few ground radars of the S400 is not gonna save you. Sorry man.

We have spaced based detection systems. Had them for nearly 2 decades now.

@Pyara9 has a fair request. all that he's asking for is the source that s400 can intercept MIRVs.

S-400 intercepts warheads during decent. Neither of you know what MIRV means.

Shaheen missiles travel at mach 18. So you've contradicted yourself. Nothing protects delhi or any other indian city from us.

Irrelevant. For it to reach mach 18, it has to be fired from a range of 3000Km from Delhi. Your country ain't that big. You can't target Delhi with the Shaheen. You will have to fire your missile from Turkey if you want to hit Delhi with the Shaheen. It's simple physics.

Have you ever thrown a ball in your life?

I know exactly what they are.. I just want an external source or link saying s-400 is capable of destroying mirvs thats all. Like a brochure if u will?? Not the Bollywood crap where a man can catach a bullet with his hand thanx.

No, you don't. Or else you wouldn't be asking such a stupid question.

 

[Cookie Monster]

The premise of the argument is equating conduct of India and Pakistan.

Yes I did equate the conducts...bcuz a direct comparison better illustrates how both countries do the same thing yet only one is somehow responsible.

The equation's variables being all of the Pakistan's proxies pitted as a subjective counter to Mukti bahini.

I made it clear in the beginning that I'm not going to speculate on other things like BLA bcuz I have no credible evidence on that. Do show me ALL THE PAKISTAN's PROXIES that u claim I have pitted against MB. If by that u mean two and not all then yes, I clarified that I will be basing it entirely off of confirmed admissions(credible sources) of a country supporting proxies in enemy country. Was I wrong to use credible evidence?

The insistence being both guerrilla forces being different sides of the same terror coin. My point is quite simple that the argument is not valid because the comparison is between known Terrorist organisation recognised as such by multitude of nations around the world; and Mukti Bahini which even Pakistan, a nation that MB dealt the final blows to doesn't concede as a terrorist entity. You might perceive it as the same, and to you the argument may be valid, but India, bangladesh, UN and the rest of the world doesn't see it the same way.

It's fine if u want to hide behind semantics. I can clearly see how Pakistani lives that were lost at the hands of Indian sponsored/armed Mukti Bahini is completely ok bcuz "UN and the rest of the world doesn't see [MB as a terrorist organizaton]", whereas if Indian lives are lost at the hands of Pakistani sponsored/armed JeM and LeT then Pak is the devil. Makes complete sense

 

[MilSpec]

1971 ... ??

So Is there any way to established that 'EXPECTED' Terror attack will have no internal connection ???
& that they will be supported by elements (not talking about "non-state actors") situated outside the geographical boundary of India .... ???

So there must not be any basis for any relation b/w the two NUCLEAR POWER (it does not even matter these will be good or bad) ....???

Who by the curse of history are enemy of each other ... ???

You don't want Mutual Survival .... ??

Or any Mutually Agreed Escalation Ladder ... to tackle the worst fears of Global community .... ??

not really, I don't want a Mutually agreed escalation ladder at all. I would like for India to to have all options open at all times, and same i guess is for Pakistan.It provides me with a multitude of options, fall-backs and containment options. Such arrangement are constraints for possible actions, and also prevent exploitation of technologies down the line in future. So no , I wouldn't favor any such arrangements. If there are any, they have to be individual entities unilateral choice.

Hindu Tava ideology & Sangh Parrivar represent Secularism and Pluralism of INDIAN SOCIETY .... ??

Hindu Tava: Hindu Frying Skillet
Hindutva: Hindu Nationalism

And no Sangh Parrivar which comprises of RSS, VHP and some other off shoots represents Hindu Right Wing.

The exact mirror of AIML was the Congress of Nehru & Gandhi, BTW if YOU a person sitting in US find it necessary to defend the Sangh Parrivar rather then realizing the potential danger & denying the need to have a mechanism to mitigate the risk which may arise anytime, anywhere ... then the DANGER IS MORE REAL AND MANY FOLDS then my assessment ....

You are quite wrong here. AIML was the exact mirror of Hindu Mahasabha (today's equivalent of Sangh). Both organisation were non-secular religious right movements.Aiml wanted Muslim home land - pakistan , Sangh wanted Hindu Rashtra - bharat,
AIML's direct action day won , Sangh lost.

Sir plz understand even if that AIML was the mother of all evils in India it no more in existence it no more RELEVANT to the points I am raising but Sangh Parrivar & BJP exist today they are relevant in today's scenario & EVEN IF THEY ARE ANGELS WE DON'T TRUST YOUR ANGELS

Read BJP's manifesto, there is no commonality with any of Sangh Parrivars rhetoric.

What I said was not in context in which you are reading, but even if you want to understand it in that manner then I will say
"I Know to survive in my hell, do you know to survive in yours" ....

Actually, We have been living in the AIML's progeny in our neighborhood since day one, but 70 yrs later the thought of a Sangh entity in power in India is a Global threat. Ohh the irony.

The constitution of India is not a mutual agreed mechanism to tackle the issues I am talking; it's for Domestic Theater of Indian to serve the purpose to Constitutionalize the STATE, GOVERNANCE & ADMINISTRATION of India. for me it does not matter its Secular, Communal, Religious or Apartheid .... what matter is the ideology in practices & accepted in general masses .... so Sir plz honestly try to answer the question I asked previously

& Does they represent Secularism and Pluralism of India Society ... ??

As the constitution has not been changed and the government that was sworn in abides by the secular constitution of India.

Who is in Power in INDIA Representative of Secularism and Pluralism or Representative Religiously Motivated Neo Nationalism ideologist ... ??

A Populist right wing Secular constitutional legally democratically elected government. Not neo-nationalist, but a nationalist democratic party.

Secondly Can you direct me any War Act under Indian constitution ... ???

Article 352 of the Indian Constitution.

Can Indian Constitution ensure that no POLITICIAN can initiate the war at his will ... ???

yes it does. Again a democracy, not a theocracy.

Agreed but WHAT IF ONE ACT IRRESPONSIBLE .... ??

If one nation acts irresponsible it has to pay for it.

And MOST IMPORTANT QUESTIONS

INDIA IS THE ONLY COUNTRY WHO HAVE THE EXCLUSIVE RIGHT TO RETALIATE .... ???

NO OTHER COUNTRY HAVE THAT RIGHT .... ???

You have the same right, if you can swing it.

& WHAT INDIAN PLANNERS THINK OTHER WILL NOT RETALIATE .... ??

I hope our planners do better than that. As far as most of the conflicts we have managed, i feel we have done a relatively decent job, we know our threat profile, and have to find methods to contain or escalate a conflict to make the terms of engagement favorable for us.

Should I remind you about this ...??
http://www.business-standard.com/ar...st-prepare-for-cold-start-117011301174_1.html

And, it is what it is, a deployment strategy for faster deployment of troops. It is one of the doctrines of deployment, doesn't mean it's the only one. Our defensive paradigm is not based on any specific country.

NFU policy .... ???
http://indianexpress.com/article/in...-use-nuclear-policy-adds-my-thinking-4369062/

http://economictimes.indiatimes.com...indias-nuke-doctrine/articleshow/55357808.cms

In democracy, even the presidents birth certificate can be questioned, a stated policy is not beyond questioning, India has not revoked it's position on NFU.[/QUOTE]

Yes I did equate the conducts...bcuz a direct comparison better illustrates how both countries do the same thing yet only one is somehow responsible.

I made it clear in the beginning that I'm not going to speculate on other things like BLA bcuz I have no credible evidence on that. Do show me ALL THE PAKISTAN's PROXIES that u claim I have pitted against MB. If by that u mean two and not all then yes, I clarified that I will be basing it entirely off of confirmed admissions(credible sources) of a country supporting proxies in enemy country. Was I wrong to use credible evidence?


It's fine if u want to hide behind semantics. I can clearly see how Pakistani lives that were lost at the hands of Indian sponsored/armed Mukti Bahini is completely ok bcuz "UN and the rest of the world doesn't see [MB as a terrorist organizaton]", whereas if Indian lives are lost at the hands of Pakistani sponsored/armed JeM and LeT then Pak is the devil. Makes complete sense

You should complain to your own government, declare Mukti bahini as a terror organisation and decline to recognize the government of bangladesh. Like the rest of the world did for Governement of Taliban (barring a few of-course) . What you are trying to argue is not even substantiated by your own regimes. If government of Pakistan since 70's has not had the conviction to claim MB as a terror organisation, who am I to declare so?

And fyi these are not semantics, these are actual policy decisions of your own state.

 

[Cookie Monster]

You should complain to your own government, declare Mukti bahini as a terror organisation and decline to recognize the government of bangladesh. Like the rest of the world did for Governement of Taliban (barring a few of-course) . What you are trying to argue is not even substantiated by your own regimes. If government of Pakistan since 70's has not had the conviction to claim MB as a terror organisation, who am I to declare so?

There is no need for that I got my answer and so did many other Pakistanis reading these posts.

 

[MilSpec]

Horribly wrong. Radar is used to detect even junk orbiting earth.



THAAD is similar to the S-400.



Which world are you from? North Korea sold ballistic missile technology to Pakistan. The Ghauri 1 was a Korean Nodong. Basically SCUD.



What shit. We already have these systems.



We have spaced based detection systems. Had them for nearly 2 decades now.



S-400 intercepts warheads during decent. Neither of you know what MIRV means.



Irrelevant. For it to reach mach 18, it has to be fired from a range of 3000Km from Delhi. Your country ain't that big. You can't target Delhi with the Shaheen. You will have to fire your missile from Turkey if you want to hit Delhi with the Shaheen. It's simple physics.

Have you ever thrown a ball in your life?



No, you don't. Or else you wouldn't be asking such a stupid question.

No need, no need , and again no need.