A war with China in 2025 would be bloody and unwinnable

[The SC]

I don't think the west will allow that much time to China. They can sense the rate at which China is catching up with them in the field of technology and this has made them desperate for a conflict with China. They think a military defeat, even at small scale, will put immense pressure on the CPC which might lead to the fall of China as a global power. They are expecting some sort of power struggle in CPC and the consequent fall of Xi as the leader, followed by dissolution of the CPC. This is basically the game plan.

That won't work.. read the anti-satellite weapons section in the article, The US and most of the GPS users are to be affected the most.. How world trade will be affected is obvious? So, China won't be really defeated ..be it on a small or large scale.. if there will be any defeat, both sides will be defeated then.. It is an insane Idea to have a war between the US ++++ and China..

Looks like you got the wrong set of 'wisdom', buddy.

Geographically, China have poor feng shui. Poor feng shui invites bad juju. As I reached out with my astral projected self, I can see the global chi force -- Life -- favoring the US. What China experiencing now is only a temporary respite from the chi force rearranging itself from China's internal reorganization of her society.

The world is dominated by water and Water is a sign of healing, of freedom, of cleansing, and of renewal. The US with our good feng shui is braced by water from coast to coast, as if Mother Nature Herself smothers Uncle Sam into her ample bosom.

The Toa maybe with China. But the Tao is with US.

Salted waters don't count in feng shui!

 

[Pakistan First]

Yaar, don't start this war for at least next 2 years. Let me get my underground bunker, my 1 year food supplies and my piece of agricultural land and livestock up in the mountains, ready first.

 

[patero]

As the Chinese idiom goes, 玉石俱焚。。。。
China is a civilisation state, gone through uncountable wars for unification and centralisation in several thousand years. She never died like other civilisation.
I can't speak for those fabricated countries which were built on nothing.

Civilization as a whole has only recently developed the ability to annihilate itself, a capability which will only improve. It only requires the will to do so, and there is plenty of that in the world today.

China won't be spared the inevitable destruction of our species, nor will any other civilization. All things shall pass. Don't interpret this as criticism of China, this is criticism of human nature itself.

 

[William Hung]

And a little side note, do you have any idea what were the main objectives behind Chinese invasion of Vietnam in 1979? Do you know that every single objective was eventually honored? What a bad fight right?

To pull Viet army from China’s friend Cambodia? Which VN refused to do in the next 10 years? Yeah great achievement from that “fight”.

What a world we are living in. History is fake bravoda for feel good feeling.

Time travel :1979

China rolled across major sections of the Vietnam border with infantry, armor, and artillery. Their 29 day war achieved no substantial victory and failed as a show of force against the Soviet Union.

China rolled across major sections of the Vietnam border with infantry, armor, and artillery. Their 29 day war achieved no substantial victory and failed as a show of force against the Soviet Union.


Many of the PLA's commanding officers were shocked by the poor discipline, low morale, combat ineffectiveness, and high casualties in the 1979 Sino-Vietnamese War. During the nineteen days of the first two phases, the PLA suffered 26,000 casualties, about 1,350 per day. Gerald Segal points out that in Vietnam, "in contrast to Korea, Chinese troops performed poorly. In Korea, they adequately defended North Korea, but in 1979 they failed to punish Vietnam. China's Cambodian allies were relegated to a sideshow along the Thai frontier, and China was unable to help them break out."During the war, 37,300 Vietnamese troops were killed, and 2,300 were captured.


And yes China will conquer Vietnam like we like to eat ice-cream... Because it's China

Yeah some folks can’t accept reality so they have to put on a fake bravado. However, this article reveals some truth behind that 1979 ordeal, it doesn’t seem to support the PLA bravado that some Chinese PDF’er is trying to put on:

http://m.scmp.com/news/china/articl...e-invasion-halt-chinese-city-governments-road

China’s People’s Liberation Army halted a city government’s road construction project on the border with Vietnam last month because of fears it could be used as a shortcut for a “Vietnamese invasion”.

If finished, the road would “definitely become a serious threat to national defence and security”, a PLA officer in charge of border affairs in Fangchenggang city, in Guangxi Zhuang Autonomous Region, was quoted as saying in Wednesday’s report China’s defence ministry website.

The two-lane road would have linked the village of Tansan, on the border with Vietnam, to the centre of Fangchenggang city, about 100km away.

The border area between China and Vietnam used to be one of the world’s most intensive area of military conflict.

After a brief but deadly war in 1979, in which more than 30,000 soldiers were killed on both sides, border clashes did not cease until 1990...

If the PLA still have this mentality then the Chinese PDF’ers should stop putting up this fake bravado and dreaming of facing the US military.

 

[shhh]

OMG. Americans and allied forces already in the path of victory. Nukes where used to end the war and complete and imiditate surrender of Japanese emperor. What kind of history they teach in ur schools? And more over nope. Chinese dint beat the ship outta Koreans. It was outside support in fear of Nato declaring war against China. And again Koreans had massive backing from Soviets.

Those times China was what Pakistan was to US during Soviet Union invasion of Afghanistan. Think about it. America came from other end of the world and defended South Korea! That's not a victory? North Koreans managed to stay alive in the was after invading south. And Americans don't want nuclear conflicts with the Soviet and pressure where mounted on US troop from American public to get the hell out of there.


And u think China will have a refreshing run into Vietnam without heavy losses to its economy and military.

If that's what u think and I pray to God to get a good history teacher for yiy

Dude, we are taught to use common sense, it is you people who are made to believe whatever is written in books and media.

Yup, USA beat the sh!t out of Taliban in Afghanistan too, thats why they are screwing them over to this date!
Pakistan could not do anything against soviets in Afghanistan, it was USA who made them win.
Yup, except that Pakistan beat this sh!t of of USA in Afghanistan, without help.

You need lessons in common sense, bro.

 

[xunzi]

What a world we are living in. History is fake bravoda for feel good feeling.

Time travel :1979

China rolled across major sections of the Vietnam border with infantry, armor, and artillery. Their 29 day war achieved no substantial victory and failed as a show of force against the Soviet Union.

China rolled across major sections of the Vietnam border with infantry, armor, and artillery. Their 29 day war achieved no substantial victory and failed as a show of force against the Soviet Union.


Many of the PLA's commanding officers were shocked by the poor discipline, low morale, combat ineffectiveness, and high casualties in the 1979 Sino-Vietnamese War. During the nineteen days of the first two phases, the PLA suffered 26,000 casualties, about 1,350 per day. Gerald Segal points out that in Vietnam, "in contrast to Korea, Chinese troops performed poorly. In Korea, they adequately defended North Korea, but in 1979 they failed to punish Vietnam. China's Cambodian allies were relegated to a sideshow along the Thai frontier, and China was unable to help them break out."During the war, 37,300 Vietnamese troops were killed, and 2,300 were captured.


And yes China will conquer Vietnam like we like to eat ice-cream... Because it's China

Did you watch the video I showed you? LOL That will demonstrate perfectly.

In 1979s, our objectives were met.

1. Stop Soviet-back Vietcong from advancing and spreading across Southeast Asia.
2. Teach VN a lesson for their invasion of Cambodia. It was never a war to conquer VN as we are not interest in doing so. We even stated publicly that it will be limited scale war. We cause tremendous damage to their infrastructure, kill many of the hidden Vietcong hidden under civilian uniform, and capture a large amount the Vietcong militia.
3. Test the so called Soviet-VN mutual defense treaty.

So all in all, it was a total victory in the long run. We suffer nothing. Soviet collapsed, VN crawled back to beg for normalcy.

Who win? LOL

 

[T-Rex]

That won't work.. read the anti-satellite weapons section in the article, The US and most of the GPS users are to be affected the most.. How world trade will be affected is obvious? So Chinawon't be really defeated be it on a small or large scale.. if there will be any defeat , both sides will be defeated then.. s it is an insane Idea to have a war between the US ++++ and China..

I believe you but do the western warmongers see it this way? That is the danger!

 

[Waqas Bajwa]

well china is a new emerging state with lot of army and economy,on the other hand US had more enemies then friends and in russia is a great ally of China.

 

[Lure]

To pull Viet army from China’s friend Cambodia? Which VN refused to do in the next 10 years? Yeah great achievement from that “fight”.

De Facto invasion stopped as early as 1982 and Chinese invasion had a huge impact on this. De jure invasion stopped in 1990.

After Sino-Soviet split main Soviet hypothesis was, China would eventually fail as a state since it was very vulnerable without Soviet help. However China proved that not only it can function on it's own, it can also cross Soviet Union when their interest conflicts. During the invasion bulk of the Chinese army was waiting in the Soviet border, not invading Vietnam. Clearly the message was to Soviets and it was well received. Soviets not only failed to protect their ally Vietnam but also couldn't stop China from invading it.

So China's aim was humiliate Soviets and it did that.

But as I've said in my previous message, Soviets and China had a lot of positive implications to politics. It's a sad part of history seeing them fight eachother.

Secondly, until 1990 China made a series of border clashes with Vietnam. Gained territories from that clashes. Even gained territory from the so called "failed" invasion.

Thirdly; while China was enjoying integration to World economics and trade, Vietnam was isolated from the entire World until 1990 and had even less allies then today's North Korea. Only Soviets were looking after them economically. But it was a huge burden. An entire country was at a point of economic starvation and Soviet Union was the only caregiver. Of course this resulted a lot of complaints from Soviet officials.

Also China protected Chinese minority (Hoa people) in Vietnam. Hoa people lived hell because of Vietnamese regime. They would live a lot worse if China hadn't invaded. When China opened it's border to accept Hoa people, cunning Vietnamese government started to attack Hoa people and triggered an ethnic cleansing.

I don't see a failed China in that conflict. The entire event resulted in larger control of China in SCS, Vietnamese economic development is crippled and isolated from the World, Hoa people are 6th largest minority group in Vietnam and they still exist in there, Soviet Union no longer exist, China gained territory from Vietnamese border, Thailand and Cambodia has very good relations with China and they are thankful for what China did.

You decide who win.

 

[xiao qi]

A short time, Chinese wasn't the winner, If Chinese soldiers didn't retreat out of Vietnamese's border. They would encounter Vietnamese regular military that was changed from Cambodia. More than 200000 soldiers, one month and grab their territories only 20km to 30km from the Chinese border ( fight with a lot of Vietnamese women and civilization army). Is it the winner?, lol. But a long time, maybe.

Let's honesty,
Do you know the 1950-1953 Korean war?
China VS US, UK, SK, a total of 17 countries.
China and these countries fighting for three years. The United States was forced to sign a peace treaty.
India does not teach these history?
For the Vietnam war.
China and the Soviet union's aid is huge, and most Vietnamese officers graduated from Chinese schools, such as the battle of dien bien phu giap command.
I don't think Vietnam is rely on their own strength to win.

http://www.militaryhistoryonline.com/20thcentury/articles/chinesesupport.aspx

Hey Giap Commander was taught by Chinese school? Give your source to prove it? i didn't know about that, although i know some Chinese consultants in Dien Bien Phu.

 

[William Hung]

Lure my friend, you probably didn’t know how many times I’ve addressed the same flawed arguments from Chinese members here. Let me just briefly address them again.

De Facto invasion stopped as early as 1982 and Chinese invasion had a huge impact on this. De jure invasion stopped in 1990.

Friend, even in 1988, Vietnam still had around 100,000 soldiers in Cambodia, and I don’t mean undercover soldiers, but fully uniformed soldiers with VPA badge stationed in Cambodia.

After Sino-Soviet split main Soviet hypothesis was, China would eventually fail as a state since it was very vulnerable without Soviet help. However China proved that not only it can function on it's own, it can also cross Soviet Union when their interest conflicts. During the invasion bulk of the Chinese army was waiting in the Soviet border, not invading Vietnam. Clearly the message was to Soviets and it was well received.

And what was that message that was “well received”? That China could not deal with Soviet influence and the Soviet-backed Vietnam who was free to control China’s friend Cambodia, right under China’s nose? So what message did 1979 sent? Its more like the reverse, that the Soviet and VN can reckt China’s interest in Cambodia, inside China’s own neighborhood, and it continued so for another 10 years.

Soviets not only failed to protect their ally Vietnam but also couldn't stop China from invading it.

How was it the case that the “Soviet failed to protect their ally VN” when China withdrew within weeks? Vietnam didn’t even need Russian troops to deal with China with such short commitment. Now, answer me, Vietnam troops occupied Cambodia not for weeks, but for 10 years, is this not a more clear case of China “failing to protect its ally”? Or are you going to use the twisted logic that its a failure on the Soviet’s part but not a failure for China???

And fyi, Russian troops were sent to Cam Ranh bay in VN from March 1979, along with strategic weapons such as fighters and bombers.

So China's aim was humiliate Soviets and it did that.

lol what? China went inside the Soviet-backed VN but withdrew within weeks with a bloody nose while the Soviet-backed VN troops occupied the Chinese-backed Cambodia for 10 years, but somehow you have managed to twist this as a humiliation for the Soviet but not for China?? lol

Secondly, until 1990 China made a series of border clashes with Vietnam. Gained territories from that clashes. Even gained territory from the so called "failed" invasion.

Those “territory” are insignificant, and more importantly, that wasn’t the objective for the 1979 conflict. Come on, even no Chinese official source ever claimed that that was the objective. You are clearly trying to find every small excuses to paint China as the victor.

Thirdly; while China was enjoying integration to World economics and trade, Vietnam was isolated from the entire World until 1990 and had even less allies then today's North Korea. Only Soviets were looking after them economically. But it was a huge burden. An entire country was at a point of economic starvation and Soviet Union was the only caregiver. Of course this resulted a lot of complaints from Soviet officials.

This is not relevant to the 1979 conflict and its objectives. This reminded me of a Chinese member who claimed that China won 1979 conflict because China’s economy and GDP is now better than Vietnam’s. lol. What he said, and what you’ve said, was irrelevent to objective of the 1979 operation. It is as relevent as saying China won the 1979 conflict because China now manage to file patents more than VN.

Also China protected Chinese minority (Hoa people) in Vietnam. Hoa people lived hell because of Vietnamese regime. They would live a lot worse if China hadn't invaded. When China opened it's border to accept Hoa people, cunning Vietnamese government started to attack Hoa people and triggered an ethnic cleansing.

Ethnic cleansing? First time I’ve heard that lol, now please provide credible source to back that claim. (my bet is that you can’t)

I don't see a failed China in that conflict. The entire event resulted in larger control of China in SCS, Vietnamese economic development is crippled and isolated from the World, Hoa people are 6th largest minority group in Vietnam and they still exist in there, Soviet Union no longer exist, China gained territory from Vietnamese border, Thailand and Cambodia has very good relations with China and they are thankful for what China did.

lol you are again bringing stuff that were not part of the objective for the 1979 operation to desperately paint China as the victor of that 1979 conflict...Soviet collapse, present day Cambodia on good terms with China, etc. while ignoring the facts of that 1979 era, where Cambodia got occupied and controlled by a Soviet-back country, etc.

You might as well claim China won, the proof is that Yao Ming made a good career in the NBA. Yes, your argument and reasons given are just as valid and relevent to the 1979 conflict.

You decide who win.

OK, I’m convinced, China clearly won the 1979 conflict because Monster hunt, a Chinese movie, can generate more profit than any Viet movie could.

 

[Lure]

Friend, even in 1988, Vietnam still had around 100,000 soldiers in Cambodia, and I don’t mean undercover soldiers, but fully uniformed soldiers with VPA badge stationed in Cambodia.

To avoid engaging in a debilitating conflict with various local armed resistance groups within the context of international pressure, Vietnam began withdrawing its military forces from Kampuchea as early as 1982. But the withdrawal process lacked international verification, so foreign observers simply dismissed Vietnam’s movement of troops as mere rotations.

Source : https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cambodian–Vietnamese_War

And what was that message that was “well received”?

On November 3, 1978, the Soviet Union and Vietnam signed a 25-year mutual defense treaty, which made Vietnam the "linchpin" in the Soviet Union's "drive to contain China."

Source : https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sino-Vietnamese_War

Soviets sign a mutual defence treaty in 1978. China invades Vietnam anyway. Are you really asking me the message China broadcasts to entire World?

Vietnam troops occupied Cambodia not for weeks, but for 10 years, is this not a more clear case of China “failing to protect its ally”? Or are you going to use the twisted logic that its a failure on the Soviet’s part but not a failure for China???

lol what? China went inside the Soviet-backed VN but withdrew within weeks with a bloody nose while the Soviet-backed VN troops occupied the Chinese-backed Cambodia for 10 years, but somehow you have managed to twist this as a humiliation for the Soviet but not for China?? lol

China never signed any mutual defence treaty with Cambodia. What happens when a NATO member is invaded and US doesn nothing? What would be the image of US? That's a binding agreement. China had no such agreements with Cambodia. China simply stated this as a cause for war with Vietnam. Failure of honoring the mutual defence treaty with Vietnam was a disaster for Soviet politics. After such agreements you can't wait for "weeks" to see what happens. You simply react as if your own land is invaded. China saw Soviet bluff and Soviets did nothing.

Those “territory” are insignificant, and more importantly, that wasn’t the objective for the 1979 conflict. Come on, even no Chinese official source ever claimed that that was the objective. You are clearly trying to find every small excuses to paint China as the victor.

Ethnic cleansing? First time I’ve heard that lol, now please provide credible source to back that claim. (my bet is that you can’t)

The reason cited for the attack was to support China's ally, the Khmer Rouge of Cambodia, in addition to the mistreatment of Vietnam's ethnic Chinese minority and the Vietnamese occupation of the Spratly Islands which were claimed by China.

Source : https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sino-Vietnamese_War

China started to control 6 reefs of Spratley Islands during border clashes.

Source : https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sino-Vietnamese_conflicts_1979–90

At present, Sino-Vietnamese comprise a small percentage in the modern Vietnamese economy, now mostly Kinh-run, as many Hoa had their businesses and property confiscated by the Communists after 1975, and many fled the country as Vietnamese boat people due to persecution by the new Communist government. Hoa persecution intensified in the late 1970s, which was one of the reasons for the Sino-Vietnamese War.

Source : https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hoa_people

lol you are again bringing stuff that were not part of the objective for the 1979 operation to desperately paint China as the victor of that 1979 conflict...Soviet collapse, present day Cambodia on good terms with China, etc. while ignoring the facts of that 1979 era, where Cambodia got occupied and controlled by a Soviet-back country, etc.

One doesn't need to fight further if the objectives are fulfilled one way or another. Every objective that China wanted has been realized until 1990. Chinese statesment are running a government, not making a one man show to impress you. If they decided sooner or later Vietnamese Armed Forces will be withdrawn from Cambodia (which it did) then they simply say this is enough.

They took control of six more reefs of Spratley Islands from Vietnam and Hoa people are still living in Vietnam with dignity. Mission accomplished.

However your twisted thesis about that "China couldn't even destroy Vietnam in 1979, how the hell they will win against US" thesis is still on the table. The war didn't even intend a full scale invasion of Vietnam. I've answered all your questions and you owe me an answer now. How the hell can I estimate the power of Chinese military in 2016, with a brief border clash happened in 1979. Can you enlighten me please?

 

[T-Rex]

well china is a new emerging state with lot of army and economy,on the other hand US had more enemies then friends and in russia is a great ally of China.

The US will back out, it has to if history means anything!

 

[The SC]

I believe you but do the western warmongers see it this way? That is the danger!

If they are insane and too arrogant they will taste the bitterness of war with another superpower..I think they are insane when attacking relatively easy prey, but very lucid, logical, objective, rational and calculating when facing a real threat..

 

[William Hung]

To avoid engaging in a debilitating conflict with various local armed resistance groups within the context of international pressure, Vietnam began withdrawing its military forces from Kampuchea as early as 1982. But the withdrawal process lacked international verification, so foreign observers simply dismissed Vietnam’s movement of troops as mere rotations.

Source : https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cambodian–Vietnamese_War

Nice wikipedia researching. But that wikipedia just supported my point that Vietnam troops occupied Cambodia for another 10 years, 180,000 troops stationed in 1984, and still 100,000 troops in 1988, and it even said that Vietnam still controlled Cambodian politics after 1982. Are you still trying to say that that is not a humiliation for China? And finally, what you have quoted from wikipedia did not say that the 1979 conflict caused VN to withdraw troops. You are trying to use your own words and attribute it to that wiki quote?

On November 3, 1978, the Soviet Union and Vietnam signed a 25-year mutual defense treaty, which made Vietnam the "linchpin" in the Soviet Union's "drive to contain China."

Source : https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sino-Vietnamese_War

Soviets sign a mutual defence treaty in 1978. China invades Vietnam anyway. Are you really asking me the message China broadcasts to entire World?

Again, China had to withdraw within weeks and Vietnam didn’t even have to withdraw its main force from Cambodia to contront China up north, it only needed to use local militia and local troops to inflict thousands of death on the PLA. VN didn’t even needed its main troops from Cambodia, so what makes you think it needed Soviet troops or intervention? If anything, the message was that China tried to test the Soviet-VN, got a bloody nose, then ran away. Then you are now trying to say its a humiliation for the Soviet but not for China?

China never signed any mutual defence treaty with Cambodia. What happens when a NATO member is invaded and US doesn nothing? What would be the image of US? That's a binding agreement. China had no such agreements with Cambodia. China simply stated this as a cause for war with Vietnam. Failure of honoring the mutual defence treaty with Vietnam was a disaster for Soviet politics. After such agreements you can't wait for "weeks" to see what happens. You simply react as if your own land is invaded. China saw Soviet bluff and Soviets did nothing.

Again, you are trying to use your twisted logic. Vietnam didn’t require or asked for Soviet intervention/troops yet, even its local militia and troops could handle against the PLA, the PLA withdrew within a matter of weeks, and somehow you have twisted it as a failure and humiliation for the Soviet but not for China? China didn’t have a formal MDT with Cambodia, but saying that Cambodia is a cause for the conflict is enough. And VN continued to stationed troops in Cambodia for another 10 years and controlled its politics, with 100,000 Viet troops still stationed as late as 1988. But you are still desperate to use the twisted logic that it was the Soviet that failed or got humilitaed and not China! lol

The reason cited for the attack was to support China's ally, the Khmer Rouge of Cambodia, in addition to the mistreatment of Vietnam's ethnic Chinese minority and the Vietnamese occupation of the Spratly Islands which were claimed by China.

Source : https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sino-Vietnamese_War

China started to control 6 reefs of Spratley Islands during border clashes.

Source : https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sino-Vietnamese_conflicts_1979–90

At present, Sino-Vietnamese comprise a small percentage in the modern Vietnamese economy, now mostly Kinh-run, as many Hoa had their businesses and property confiscated by the Communists after 1975, and many fled the country as Vietnamese boat people due to persecution by the new Communist government. Hoa persecution intensified in the late 1970s, which was one of the reasons for the Sino-Vietnamese War.

Source : https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hoa_people

And China’s support for its friend the Khmer Rouge is a total failure, they got booted out by the Soviet-backed VN and never came back, even until now.

Spratly Islands was one of the objective for the 1979 conflict? lolwat? First time I have ever heard that! Site some credible sources please!

Also, I am still waiting for you to provide credible sources for your claims about Hoa ethnic cleansing in Vietnam! Please do so.

I can go on with your reasoning. Either you are being desperate or dishonest here. Can you provide credible source to back your claims even just for the 2 points above, the Spratlys as a 1979 objective and the ethnic cleansing? Please do so if you want to have credential.

One doesn't need to fight further if the objectives are fulfilled one way or another. Every objective that China wanted has been realized until 1990. Chinese statesment are running a government, not making a one man show to impress you. If they decided sooner or later Vietnamese Armed Forces will be withdrawn from Cambodia (which it did) then they simply say this is enough.

One doesn't need to fight further if the objectives are fulfilled one way or another? So the objective of supporting the Khmer Rouge was fullfilled, really? Even your desperate attempt to use a wikipedia quote said VN started to withdrew some troops in 1982, that’s years late after the PLA withdrew with weeks in early 1979, so how on earth does it make sense for you to reoly that “One doesn't need to fight further if the objectives are fulfilled one way or another”???? That is what you call twisted logic, or time travelling.

However your twisted thesis about that "China couldn't even destroy Vietnam in 1979, how the hell they will win against US" thesis is still on the table. The war didn't even intend a full scale invasion of Vietnam. I've answered all your questions and you owe me an answer now. How the hell can I estimate the power of Chinese military in 2016, with a brief border clash happened in 1979. Can you enlighten me please?

Why are you trying to quote me as saying "China couldn't even destroy Vietnam in 1979, how the hell they will win against US"??? I didn’t say that so dont put words in my mouth. And all you have shown are twisted logic and unverified/unsupported bold claims, like the ethnic cleansing.