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A Vision of a New Combined Arms Philosophy & Doctrine

Low quality (fuzzy) sample (easy to upload) of the orbat map I made, just to give you an idea of the larger area snap I took:

View attachment 623357

I have Higher quality one i will have to reupload somewhere, coz the old link is broken. It will lend itself very well for if you want to do a tactical analysis in particular area of interest (say akhnoor etc)...but we will have to account for the difference in detail between two sides (I got much more info from Pak side for example, so its not 100% equivalent stuff).

I actually have it mapped out for all of India (central, eastern as well) and Pakistan (southern as well)...but that file is immense and I have not combined it into this snap. That would be for even later analysis if we are interested.

This was the thread lot of the info was shared between members earlier if you are interested in the related convo +underlying sources etc then:

https://defence.pk/pdf/threads/retaking-kashmir-after-70-years.603628/page-15#post-11280838

Can check pages before and after, you can see what the gestation and development process (slow on my end because it was just hobby free time when I got it) was.

I would be happy to zoom in as you guys want to take it here, but again depends on free time we all have.
Addition of international border / LOC would bring further clarity. Moreover, i believe some zoom is required.

Tell me one thing, what is the source of this ORBAT? Hypothetical?
 
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Addition of international border / LOC would bring further clarity. Moreover, i believe some zoom is required.

Tell me one thing, what is the source of this ORBAT? Hypothetical?

Yup we can zoom into areas, I have the High quality file, I will upload that later (its very large and old one is broken link).

The sources are from what @Joe Shearer and @Gryphon mostly gave me in the older thread link I posted above. You can peruse that thread at your leisure, it might be fairly interesting to you.

That convo started around here:

https://defence.pk/pdf/threads/retaking-kashmir-after-70-years.603628/page-8#post-11200067
 
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Yup we can zoom into areas, I have the High quality file, I will upload that later (its very large and old one is broken link).

The sources are from what @Joe Shearer and @Gryphon mostly gave me in the older thread link I posted above. You can peruse that thread at your leisure, it might be fairly interesting to you.

That convo started around here:

https://defence.pk/pdf/threads/retaking-kashmir-after-70-years.603628/page-8#post-11200067

the ORBAT is ALMOST accurate, lets keep it that way. Now, what about the locations you have charted on map of these formations?
 
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the ORBAT is ALMOST accurate, lets keep it that way. Now, what about the locations you have charted on map of these formations?

It is the locations given to me by Gryphon and Joe....I would assume it goes by official "basing" (non-mobilized etc)....we can be flexible with that as we want if we want to get a more mobilized battle-relevant perspective since things obviously move.
 
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It is the locations given to me by Gryphon and Joe....I would assume it goes by official "basing" (non-mobilized etc)....we can be flexible with that as we want if we want to get a more mobilized battle-relevant perspective since things obviously move.

Lets start from a specific sector. As they teach us, first comes the terrain analysis.
 
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Lets start from a specific sector. As they teach us, first comes the terrain analysis.

I will let others like @Signalian @Joe Shearer @Gryphon pipe up which sector they are most interested in first. Then we can have a bit of broad contour layout on what we expect to be rallied and deployed there in various scenarios.

It will make "zoomed in" visual mapping final step (and I will get on it once enough things fleshed out), and we likely through iterations discover what the terrain constraints and contours might be.

Later on, I might look at using more 3D slant perspectives even too (for areas where this is of key relevance like artillery emplacement w.r.t pir panjal that Joe has brought up a few times) if we get time and interest for it.
 
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That post is mark of an excellent officer - some complain that there are not enough Bdes so every good officer can't be BM after the course.

I wish Panzerkiel the best of luck on it.

I handn't seen a good write up bringing up what Panzerkiel itself is for quite a long time...and has Manstein as DP too.

Just unfortunate timing away from when lot more ppl here were talking near daily about wehrmacht history and tactics (earlier).

Forum need lot more good quality members like this one that really cut to the chase!
 
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I'll take yours one at a time...
- As far as stockpiles are concerned, i dont know about the other side, but ours is now in MONTHS, not even days or weeks, exact months i know but cant specify here.
-There is an increasing possibility of great powers stepping in due to the nuc capability of both sides. A nuclear war in sub-continent would be a bad news for half the world.
- Till 1971, we made a mistake which the real reason of costing us dearly till then in all wars. What we learnt, and what we follow as well in our planning at the highest level, is that you always plan based upon enemy's CAPABILITY, not his INTENTIONS. Examples, we thought that Indians INTENDED to restrict to Kashmir in 1965, even though they had the CAPABILITY to open the international border. Our other follies can all be linked to this one singular aspect which we learnt later. You can compare our performance in 80s and 90s, even in the last two decades. Thts the result of self-appraisal after the 70s and the effects of our improved military institutions.


Thanks for the compliments. Lets see what you come up with.

I don't mean to downplay the PA, but if you are right that a rethink actually happened, then what happened in Kargil? Wasn't that the same exact kind of mistake?

Here is my take - The world as we knew it from 1945-1990 completely changed to a unipolar world from 1991-2018. Going forward however we are moving to a new era of a destabilized multipolar world were new powers have emerged and old powers have waned.

The US with Trump is declining rapidly in its international stature. US military is exhausted from fighting long wars in the Middle East and Afghanistan (and 100 other secret places it doesn't advertise). Post-Covid19 we will see further destabilization. Countries previously under US sway are now acting independently with unprecedented proxy wars taking place where, for the first time in history, we have the US as a side-show (Syria) or a no-show (Libya / Yemen).

The US itself is facing tremendous internal dissent. It's allies that were hard-glued to them now feel betrayed or are themselves of much lesser status than before. Case in point - Europe. Case in point the decline of the UK as a military force.

The era we have entered is eerily reminiscent of the 1930s. And we have a Nazi ideological equivalent in Modi, whose aim is, in no uncertain terms, to engage in progroms against Muslims, to repopulate Kashmir with Hindus, and to take back Pakistani Kashmir.

Whether Modi continues or not, this Hindutva ideology is only waiting to express itself, now or in whatever time it takes to realize. So, while I understand Pak is prepared for a "Cold Start", with thrusts in the theater north and south of Multan axis, the real attack will come somewhere in Azad Kashmir and what we call the northern areas.

Will international players intervene? Who? The US? What will the US do - send a fleet to stand and watch? Do you think the US will militarily rescue Pakistan? That will never happen. The US is not going to war with India, neither does it have the capability and will to do so. Sanctions will do little to stop Modi, who has shown that he is willing to forgo India's economic future for Hindutva supremacist goals.

India and Pakistan now are among the largest, most professional militaries in the world. There is no physical intervention from the UN or the US.

Generals often prepare for the last war they've fought, not the war they will fight in the future. This is exactly the case here but perhaps the pride of Pak generals is refusing to allow them to see this. If India knows you are prepared for x, I assure you they will not be preparing x for you. They will prepare a-z - everything except x. If you are waiting for a 2 week war, I don't think that is what you will get.

A forward thinking Pakistan would then prepare for a war that is to come, now or whenever. A war instigated by India or preempted by Pakistan. And that war may perhaps start as a reverse of Kargil - India attempting to take back Kashmir in a limited war.

Except there is a high chance that it won't remain limited, but like 1965, will conflagrate into an all out war.

If you look at PM Imran Khan's speeches, he understands where India is headed. He just doesn't know how to deal with it except making speeches.

Will the fear of a nuclear exchange eventually stop the war or create limits to its belligerents? Yes it will. But not in the way we are assuming. The real nuclear threshold will not be reached if India manages to take Azad Kashmir and northern areas. Nor is tactically nuking Kashmir a viable solution politically.

Will Pakistan taking Rann of Kutch or Hariyana or sections of Indian Punjab cause India, the aggressor to reach the nuclear threshold. I would say no. Not unless we reach New Delhi.

The world does not always work as it has in the past. Sometimes things happen that never happened before. Take for instance the Coronavirus. It just came out of the blue and totally changed the world. Finance guys call these "black swan events". You see, when the white man reached Australia he saw something that he had never seen before - black swans.

Swans were white. Where always known to be white. The western world had always understood that this was one thing that would stay white just like them. But the world didn't work as it always worked. It showed them a black swan and viola, they ultimately came up with the "black swan" theory - that the world throws stuff at you that is unprecedented.

A conventional war between India and Pakistan, two nuclear nations would be unprecedented. It has never happened before. But logic suggests it will happen and already did happen to some extent in Kargil. Kargil lasted 2.5 months and did not have a racial supremacist Hindutva ideology fueling it.

If Kargil lasted that long, imagine how long a future mega-kargil could last. If we take a 95% confidence interval and assume that this event will take place at that mark, and we play around with a bit of statistics, I think that the next war can last between 1 to 6 months.

To keep things relatively simple, let's assume the next war will last 4 months. Let's also assume that this 4 month war will start in Kashmir but will then move to the international border.

Let us also assume that the DGMO having more foresight than past generals, actually planned in advance for this war, and convinced the COAS to approach PM Imran Khan to enlarge the armed forces through conscription.

Now let us assume that a division has approximately 15000 soldiers, and we wish to raise 10 new infantry division for our war with India. Let us assume a FIFO system (First in First Out) and that conscription will have wastage of 10%. To retain conscripts, we will need to recruit for about 200,000 of them.

(should I continue? @PanzerKiel )
 
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Equipment for the 10 new divisions:
1. SKS rifles from China. Simple, quality chrome plated with milled receivers. 120,000
2. T-59 tanks from Chinese reserves upgraded somewhat similarly to the Zarrar. 1000
tracked APCs, wheeled APCs, trucks, mortar, RPK as base machine gun, G-3s for snipers / DMR.

I personally feel Pak needs to invest in a wheeled APC with an MRAP like v hull in large numbers.
NLOS mortar guns, wheeled could be a substitute / complement to traditional artillery.

Buy old European towed artillery and convert to wheeled artillery inhouse.
Chart shows deployment of these new infantry divisions. A single red x indicates brigade while a double xx indicates division.
 

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  • NEW DIVISIONS PA.png
    NEW DIVISIONS PA.png
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You better get posted as BM in an IABG at conclusion of your course.
Lets see what fate has for me.

I don't mean to downplay the PA, but if you are right that a rethink actually happened, then what happened in Kargil? Wasn't that the same exact kind of mistake?

Here is my take - The world as we knew it from 1945-1990 completely changed to a unipolar world from 1991-2018. Going forward however we are moving to a new era of a destabilized multipolar world were new powers have emerged and old powers have waned.

The US with Trump is declining rapidly in its international stature. US military is exhausted from fighting long wars in the Middle East and Afghanistan (and 100 other secret places it doesn't advertise). Post-Covid19 we will see further destabilization. Countries previously under US sway are now acting independently with unprecedented proxy wars taking place where, for the first time in history, we have the US as a side-show (Syria) or a no-show (Libya / Yemen).

The US itself is facing tremendous internal dissent. It's allies that were hard-glued to them now feel betrayed or are themselves of much lesser status than before. Case in point - Europe. Case in point the decline of the UK as a military force.

The era we have entered is eerily reminiscent of the 1930s. And we have a Nazi ideological equivalent in Modi, whose aim is, in no uncertain terms, to engage in progroms against Muslims, to repopulate Kashmir with Hindus, and to take back Pakistani Kashmir.

Whether Modi continues or not, this Hindutva ideology is only waiting to express itself, now or in whatever time it takes to realize. So, while I understand Pak is prepared for a "Cold Start", with thrusts in the theater north and south of Multan axis, the real attack will come somewhere in Azad Kashmir and what we call the northern areas.

Will international players intervene? Who? The US? What will the US do - send a fleet to stand and watch? Do you think the US will militarily rescue Pakistan? That will never happen. The US is not going to war with India, neither does it have the capability and will to do so. Sanctions will do little to stop Modi, who has shown that he is willing to forgo India's economic future for Hindutva supremacist goals.

India and Pakistan now are among the largest, most professional militaries in the world. There is no physical intervention from the UN or the US.

Generals often prepare for the last war they've fought, not the war they will fight in the future. This is exactly the case here but perhaps the pride of Pak generals is refusing to allow them to see this. If India knows you are prepared for x, I assure you they will not be preparing x for you. They will prepare a-z - everything except x. If you are waiting for a 2 week war, I don't think that is what you will get.

A forward thinking Pakistan would then prepare for a war that is to come, now or whenever. A war instigated by India or preempted by Pakistan. And that war may perhaps start as a reverse of Kargil - India attempting to take back Kashmir in a limited war.

Except there is a high chance that it won't remain limited, but like 1965, will conflagrate into an all out war.

If you look at PM Imran Khan's speeches, he understands where India is headed. He just doesn't know how to deal with it except making speeches.

Will the fear of a nuclear exchange eventually stop the war or create limits to its belligerents? Yes it will. But not in the way we are assuming. The real nuclear threshold will not be reached if India manages to take Azad Kashmir and northern areas. Nor is tactically nuking Kashmir a viable solution politically.

Will Pakistan taking Rann of Kutch or Hariyana or sections of Indian Punjab cause India, the aggressor to reach the nuclear threshold. I would say no. Not unless we reach New Delhi.

The world does not always work as it has in the past. Sometimes things happen that never happened before. Take for instance the Coronavirus. It just came out of the blue and totally changed the world. Finance guys call these "black swan events". You see, when the white man reached Australia he saw something that he had never seen before - black swans.

Swans were white. Where always known to be white. The western world had always understood that this was one thing that would stay white just like them. But the world didn't work as it always worked. It showed them a black swan and viola, they ultimately came up with the "black swan" theory - that the world throws stuff at you that is unprecedented.

A conventional war between India and Pakistan, two nuclear nations would be unprecedented. It has never happened before. But logic suggests it will happen and already did happen to some extent in Kargil. Kargil lasted 2.5 months and did not have a racial supremacist Hindutva ideology fueling it.

If Kargil lasted that long, imagine how long a future mega-kargil could last. If we take a 95% confidence interval and assume that this event will take place at that mark, and we play around with a bit of statistics, I think that the next war can last between 1 to 6 months.

To keep things relatively simple, let's assume the next war will last 4 months. Let's also assume that this 4 month war will start in Kashmir but will then move to the international border.

Let us also assume that the DGMO having more foresight than past generals, actually planned in advance for this war, and convinced the COAS to approach PM Imran Khan to enlarge the armed forces through conscription.

Now let us assume that a division has approximately 15000 soldiers, and we wish to raise 10 new infantry division for our war with India. Let us assume a FIFO system (First in First Out) and that conscription will have wastage of 10%. To retain conscripts, we will need to recruit for about 200,000 of them.

(should I continue? @PanzerKiel )

Kargil was a well planned operation, i say again, well planned. In simple terms, once we reached our objectives and found more peaks empty, we simply went ahead (i would have done the same). Thats why our supplies got stretched. The havoc we created is of course known to all.

As far as Modi is concerned, though keeping in view my German roots (lolz), i don discuss politics and stop others from it as well. We military men should be concerned with our profession first, what are we paid and trained for. Politics isnt out field. However, the opinion which i have developed, based upon teachings of very senior officers who are real thinkers, is that they will implode, self destruct.

Mazay ki baat, that two week war, its not what we think. It what THEY think.!! Of course due to several valid reasons.

Interesting, it was found out, recently by both countries, that despite they being nuclear, a small window of war (air strikes, x border actions) is there now.

Food for thought for all of us here, the next war is not going deep, its going for limited and sensitive objectives, short of nuclear threshold. Its not for victory anymore. Its now about CARVING OUT NOTION OF VICTORY.

Combat strength of a normal infantry Division (which actually fights) is close to 8000 only.

Now lets go forward.
 
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Lets see what fate has for me.



Kargil was a well planned operation, i say again, well planned. In simple terms, once we reached our objectives and found more peaks empty, we simply went ahead (i would have done the same). Thats why our supplies got stretched. The havoc we created is of course known to all.

As far as Modi is concerned, though keeping in view my German roots (lolz), i don discuss politics and stop others from it as well. We military men should be concerned with our profession first, what are we paid and trained for. Politics isnt out field. However, the opinion which i have developed, based upon teachings of very senior officers who are real thinkers, is that they will implode, self destruct.

Mazay ki baat, that two week war, its not what we think. It what THEY think.!! Of course due to several valid reasons.

Interesting, it was found out, recently by both countries, that despite they being nuclear, a small window of war (air strikes, x border actions) is there now.

Food for thought for all of us here, the next war is not going deep, its going for limited and sensitive objectives, short of nuclear threshold. Its not for victory anymore. Its now about CARVING OUT NOTION OF VICTORY.

Combat strength of a normal infantry Division (which actually fights) is close to 8000 only.

Now lets go forward.
So both sides agree to keep aside nukes in such times sir ?
 
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So both sides agree to keep aside nukes in such times sir ?

See for yourself dear, their planes crossed this side and bombed. Our planes almost took out high value military targets in return. Why werent any nukes fired. What else would be sign of start of a war. We did the same on 3 Dec 71 on eastern front and war started here. Why didnt the war start again last Feb?

That post is mark of an excellent officer - some complain that there are not enough Bdes so every good officer can't be BM after the course.

Personally, i would like to go somewhere else. There are places where, i feel, i can utilize my abilities to the optimum.
 
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