A Vision of a New Combined Arms Philosophy & Doctrine

[Signalian]

not sure what this thread is about and where its headed to ............

download and skim in less than 30 seconds.

something like this.

 

[Armchair]

@Signalian sorry for my long absence, elections, new job, etc. Glad to see you're still here.

download and skim in less than 30 seconds.

something like this.

jamming becomes easier in the full spectrum combined arms philosophy given here. You can attach jammers to the CAS component to debilitate enemy signals. This would be difficult to counter as it is no a fixed location and cannot easily be targeted.

Jamming is such a small word for the wide assortment of jamming there is. The simplest (and yet sometimes the most effective) is a simple electromagnet spun at speed creating a debilitating EM wave.

 

[Lubna Mehmud]

why not to create more natural obstacles by developing well coordinated river linking projects, canals, etc to augment defence potential of the country.

creating man made jungle in selected places utilizing waste water.

creating planned city along advancing route.

Nice tank obstacle

It will serve both purpose of water reservoir, irrigation canal, natural obstacle system.

Pakistan must have a large scale obstacle/ canal system.

 

[Armchair]

@Signalian need to urgently get in touch with you regarding something of vital importance. Please check pm

 

[Armchair]

@Irfan Baloch this thread complements the conscription discussion because it shows the kind of warfare a larger Pak army could potentially engage in.

 

[Armchair]

@PanzerKiel this thread is a brain child of things you taught me a decade ago.

A vision of the kind of military operations such an upgraded PA force would be able to conduct.

Imagine 12 years down the line, its 2030, and after an economic recovery, Pakistan under Imran Khan and PTI's leadership decides that they wish to free Kashmir. The DGMO @Signalian has been given special authority to set up a national plan for this sacred objective.

DGMO Signalian has the following forces at his disposal:

1. 15 Infantry divisions
2. 1 Mountain division
3. 2 Armored divisions
4. 4 Mechanized divisions
5. 15 Flex divisions
6. 1 Marine division

This is a total of 38 divisions. Our DGMO has organized these divisions into 12 Corps. He has also segmented them into 5 Commands:

Northern Command: Northern Areas - Kashmir - Sialkot
Central Command: Sialkot - Lahore - Bahwalpur
South-Central Command: Bahwalpur - Rahimyar Khan - Sukkur
Southern Command: Sukkur - Nawabshah - Mirpurkhas - Hydrabad
Marine Command: Mekran - Karachi - Sir Creek

DGMO Signalian has organized a plan to create a "Hammer and Anvil" strategy, whereby defensive formations will hold the line, while offensive formations will flank and maneuver behind the enemy.

The map depicts such a potential battleplan:
View attachment 485617

Brown boxes depict the Anvil, and green lines depict the hammer. Red triangle depicts major losses to the enemy from encirclement. Orange lines depict newly liberated territory.

Battle could be started after a major atrocity in Kashmir by Indian Occupation Forces. An attack in Kashmir will be launched full-scale and with (hopefully) the element of surprise. This will cause India to respond, and at that very response, a full scale blitz will be launched from Southern Punjab, as well as on the Kutch salient. The scale and fast-paced assault will look to maneuver and attack the enemy from the flank and from behind, acting as an anvil against Indian forces looking to attack the Lahore-Sialkot axis.

While the enemy will imagine that the main aim is in Kashmir, the real aim will be to capture Indian Punjab and Kutch, and trade land there for Kashmir. If no trade is possible, a massive territory of the best Indian cultivable land would now be under Pakistan, and given the new LOC, whatever remains with India of Kashmir will be unsustainable to maintain, and at best a burden.

New Dehli is now in artillery range, Siachin supply lines are cut off and realistically lost, half of Kashmir now is under Pakistan, and Kutch becomes a strategic gain that puts a large number of Indian cities and coast within striking distance.

@PanzerKiel did the student learn something? : )

 

[Armchair]

For the CAS aircraft you will need three types of armament on it, to start with:
1. A 30mm gun for strafing runs.
2. An air to surface missile, like AGM-65, KH-29 etc for taking out armoured vehicles. Carrying capacity 4-6.
3. General purpose bombs for bombing runs against bunkers, bridges, C4I structures and command HQ's.
Optional could be rocket pods.

F-7 can suit this role, otherwise A-5 wasn't bad too. I cant find my post on F-7 for ground role.

The main gun is a debatable topic. Gun length(48-52 cal), ammunition used(AP,HE,MPAT), muzzle speed, range etc but mostly the targets that a 76mm gun and 125mm gun could be facing. After expending all ATGM's, the 76mm main gun of tank wouldn't be able to take on heavy targets like other MBT's, armored veh's, bunkers etc.

If new launchers are made for firing ATGM's like M2 Bradley or will ATGM get fired from main gun like T-80 ? Modern ATGM's are above 120mm in caliber, so the main gun has to be atleast 125mm e.g. Refleks is 125mm, TOW is 152mm, SPIKE is 170mm etc.

Coming to engine, 500 HP engine will have two limitations;

1. Up-armouring the MBT or putting more ERA on MBT will slow down the tank. As a reference, 40 Ton MBT using 700 HP engine is acceptable by PA.
2. Desert requires lots of travelling in high speeds over a vast area especially for flanking maneuvers, a slow tank wont be able to sustain itself properly even when negotiating obstacles or if it gets stuck in sand or mud.

Was just re-reading this old post. What modern technology demonstrated in the last 15 years has shown us is that gun strafing runs are a thing of the past. Small munitions launched from UAVs are decimating armour including tanks.

To modernize PA in line with this revolution in targeting, munitions and platforms is to have:

1. Drones like the Bayrakhtar TB2
2. A CAS platform, something that is relatively survivable in a contested environment were enemy fighters are fighting your own, and were the enemy is equiped with SAMs and radars.

The closest reflection of this is in weapons systems designed to fight the European theater during the Cold War era. The general tactic was to fly low, using nap of the earth navigation aids, pop up, use (standoff PGM) munitions, drop low again and scoot out. At a speed of about 600-800 kph. Aircraft that were designed with this in mind include:

1. A-10
2. Harrier
3. Su-25

Jaguars were more designed for strike and not for CAS role. CAS role requires ability to identify enemy targets and to take some light arms fire.

What we now need is to design something for the Subcontinent which is an 80:20 solution similar to the above 3 platforms. 80 percent of the capability at 20 percent of the cost. This is doable specially since the distances our platform need to perform in are much shorter than the European theater.

 

[PanzerKiel]

@PanzerKiel this thread is a brain child of things you taught me a decade ago.



@PanzerKiel did the student learn something? : )

Bhai, i feel honored by what you said.

The scenario you painted is good. But then its still embryonic, understandably, since you may not be having access to detailed military knowledge, strategy and tactics. You garnish this plan with these aspects and you may come up with something actually interesting. This can be developed further.

A vision of the kind of military operations such an upgraded PA force would be able to conduct.

Imagine 12 years down the line, its 2030, and after an economic recovery, Pakistan under Imran Khan and PTI's leadership decides that they wish to free Kashmir. The DGMO @Signalian has been given special authority to set up a national plan for this sacred objective.

DGMO Signalian has the following forces at his disposal:

1. 15 Infantry divisions
2. 1 Mountain division
3. 2 Armored divisions
4. 4 Mechanized divisions
5. 15 Flex divisions
6. 1 Marine division

This is a total of 38 divisions. Our DGMO has organized these divisions into 12 Corps. He has also segmented them into 5 Commands:

Northern Command: Northern Areas - Kashmir - Sialkot
Central Command: Sialkot - Lahore - Bahwalpur
South-Central Command: Bahwalpur - Rahimyar Khan - Sukkur
Southern Command: Sukkur - Nawabshah - Mirpurkhas - Hydrabad
Marine Command: Mekran - Karachi - Sir Creek

DGMO Signalian has organized a plan to create a "Hammer and Anvil" strategy, whereby defensive formations will hold the line, while offensive formations will flank and maneuver behind the enemy.

The map depicts such a potential battleplan:
View attachment 485617

Brown boxes depict the Anvil, and green lines depict the hammer. Red triangle depicts major losses to the enemy from encirclement. Orange lines depict newly liberated territory.

Battle could be started after a major atrocity in Kashmir by Indian Occupation Forces. An attack in Kashmir will be launched full-scale and with (hopefully) the element of surprise. This will cause India to respond, and at that very response, a full scale blitz will be launched from Southern Punjab, as well as on the Kutch salient. The scale and fast-paced assault will look to maneuver and attack the enemy from the flank and from behind, acting as an anvil against Indian forces looking to attack the Lahore-Sialkot axis.

While the enemy will imagine that the main aim is in Kashmir, the real aim will be to capture Indian Punjab and Kutch, and trade land there for Kashmir. If no trade is possible, a massive territory of the best Indian cultivable land would now be under Pakistan, and given the new LOC, whatever remains with India of Kashmir will be unsustainable to maintain, and at best a burden.

New Dehli is now in artillery range, Siachin supply lines are cut off and realistically lost, half of Kashmir now is under Pakistan, and Kutch becomes a strategic gain that puts a large number of Indian cities and coast within striking distance.

If you want to make it more realistic, interesting and logical, push in it Indian responses as well.

 

[Armchair]

Bhai, i feel honored by what you said.

The scenario you painted is good. But then its still embryonic, understandably, since you may not be having access to detailed military knowledge, strategy and tactics. You garnish this plan with these aspects and you may come up with something actually interesting. This can be developed further.



If you want to make it more realistic, interesting and logical, push in it Indian responses as well.

I will work on it particularly in line with my own modest intellectual growth since then. Maybe @Signalian and @Nilgiri could help, would be most obliged if they did.

 

[Armchair]

To begin with, the Pakistan Army as it stands today does not have the manpower or the equipment to take on the Indian Army and decisively defeat it in battle. Before any maps can be drawn, any tactics can be debated, the size and capability of the Pakistan Army needs to be expanded.

What we are facing at present is a direct threat from a Nazi ideology that is hell-bent on turning Kashmir into Rakhine and in exterminating as many Muslims as possible. If Pakistan sits silently observes this, like Neville Chamberlain before WWII, once they are done butchering Indian Muslims, Pakistan inevitably will be next.

I believe PM Imran Khan understands this but he does not believe Pakistan can take on India militarily, which is a sensible decision.

Or is it?

Let us imagine it is the year 2025 and the Pakistani economy has stabilized. Progroms against Muslims in India are in full swing, with a divided India like never before. Pakistan has quietly been preparing for this in the following ways:

1. Conscription of volunteer forces equal to about 200,000 soldiers, with 2 weeks training.

2. Importing large quantities of arms to arm the conscripts into 10 new infantry divisions.

3. Recruitment of professional NCOs and officers, to structure the largely conscript military force.

To the Pakistan Army's professional formations, these conscript divisions will act in holding positions and as reserves, and in support of them. This will allow the all professional portion of the armed forces the flexibility and freedom to engage in an offensive war.

(to be continued)

 

[PanzerKiel]

To begin with, the Pakistan Army as it stands today does not have the manpower or the equipment to take on the Indian Army and decisively defeat it in battle. Before any maps can be drawn, any tactics can be debated, the size and capability of the Pakistan Army needs to be expanded.

What we are facing at present is a direct threat from a Nazi ideology that is hell-bent on turning Kashmir into Rakhine and in exterminating as many Muslims as possible. If Pakistan sits silently observes this, like Neville Chamberlain before WWII, once they are done butchering Indian Muslims, Pakistan inevitably will be next.

I believe PM Imran Khan understands this but he does not believe Pakistan can take on India militarily, which is a sensible decision.

Or is it?

Let us imagine it is the year 2025 and the Pakistani economy has stabilized. Progroms against Muslims in India are in full swing, with a divided India like never before. Pakistan has quietly been preparing for this in the following ways:

1. Conscription of volunteer forces equal to about 200,000 soldiers, with 2 weeks training.

2. Importing large quantities of arms to arm the conscripts into 10 new infantry divisions.

3. Recruitment of professional NCOs and officers, to structure the largely conscript military force.

To the Pakistan Army's professional formations, these conscript divisions will act in holding positions and as reserves, and in support of them. This will allow the all professional portion of the armed forces the flexibility and freedom to engage in an offensive war.

(to be continued)

Dear, if the base parameters are set right, a solid thing can be set on it. Otherwise the final result may not pay off.

Let me give you some base parameters (which are true)
- Duration of next conventional war is max 11 days.
- Dont go for the sizes of both armies. Just see the map and identify objectives for both sides. There are sectors where we are already near to our strat objs and vice versa. Do target analysis as well so that you will be clear yourself what why one objective, out of others in a particular zone, is more important than others and should be taken.
- Complete defeat of any army may not be possible. Duration of war and other aspects will not allow for that. One army which captures its pre-designated objectives can claim to be the winner.

You can build on that.

To begin with, the Pakistan Army as it stands today does not have the manpower or the equipment to take on the Indian Army and decisively defeat it in battle. Before any maps can be drawn, any tactics can be debated, the size and capability of the Pakistan Army needs to be expanded.

What we are facing at present is a direct threat from a Nazi ideology that is hell-bent on turning Kashmir into Rakhine and in exterminating as many Muslims as possible. If Pakistan sits silently observes this, like Neville Chamberlain before WWII, once they are done butchering Indian Muslims, Pakistan inevitably will be next.

I believe PM Imran Khan understands this but he does not believe Pakistan can take on India militarily, which is a sensible decision.

Or is it?

Let us imagine it is the year 2025 and the Pakistani economy has stabilized. Progroms against Muslims in India are in full swing, with a divided India like never before. Pakistan has quietly been preparing for this in the following ways:

1. Conscription of volunteer forces equal to about 200,000 soldiers, with 2 weeks training.

2. Importing large quantities of arms to arm the conscripts into 10 new infantry divisions.

3. Recruitment of professional NCOs and officers, to structure the largely conscript military force.

To the Pakistan Army's professional formations, these conscript divisions will act in holding positions and as reserves, and in support of them. This will allow the all professional portion of the armed forces the flexibility and freedom to engage in an offensive war.

(to be continued)

...moreover, you have given some statements which are incorrect and therefore cannot (in your case) and are not (in reality) part of or included in real planning.

 

[Armchair]

Dear, if the base parameters are set right, a solid thing can be set on it. Otherwise the final result may not pay off.

Let me give you some base parameters (which are true)
- Duration of next conventional war is max 11 days.
- Dont go for the sizes of both armies. Just see the map and identify objectives for both sides. There are sectors where we are already near to our strat objs and vice versa. Do target analysis as well so that you will be clear yourself what why one objective, out of others in a particular zone, is more important than others and should be taken.
- Complete defeat of any army may not be possible. Duration of war and other aspects will not allow for that. One army which captures its pre-designated objectives can claim to be the winner.

You can build on that.



...moreover, you have given some statements which are incorrect and therefore cannot (in your case) and are not (in reality) part of or included in real planning.

I understand that both forces hold very small stockpiles of fuel and ammunition but I feel the international environment is changing. We are moving to a world of greater instability where no power will be able to step in and stop both sides go at it. Do you want to discuss this assumption? What else am I getting wrong would really like your most valuable input.

Remember that every time the base assumptions the PA has made has been false. 1971, 1965, Kargil, every single time they misunderstood the calculus. Perhaps we need to rethink the present calculus as well...(?) What do you say @PanzerKiel ?

In 1965 they assumed that IA will not attack along the international border. That was their basic calculus. In 1971 they assumed IA was not looking to decapitate East Pakistan. In Kargil they assumed...

I don't think that is a good track record for any military. Too many yes men, not enough people arguing against them.

 

[Nilgiri]

I will work on it particularly in line with my own modest intellectual growth since then. Maybe @Signalian and @Nilgiri could help, would be most obliged if they did.

Interesting thread here, thanks for tagging me.

I will follow and hopefully resurrect some visual analysis from the ORBAT maps I made earlier last year. Maybe zoom into specific areas and we can discuss/analyse more there (ofc on positions + doctrines that are available to public).

For now I will let you guys continue some more conversation for now.

@PanzerKiel hope you stick around, your analysis in various threads so far has been a treat to read!

 

[PanzerKiel]

I understand that both forces hold very small stockpiles of fuel and ammunition but I feel the international environment is changing. We are moving to a world of greater instability where no power will be able to step in and stop both sides go at it. Do you want to discuss this assumption? What else am I getting wrong would really like your most valuable input.

Remember that every time the base assumptions the PA has made has been false. 1971, 1965, Kargil, every single time they misunderstood the calculus. Perhaps we need to rethink the present calculus as well...(?) What do you say @PanzerKiel ?

In 1965 they assumed that IA will not attack along the international border. That was their basic calculus. In 1971 they assumed IA was not looking to decapitate East Pakistan. In Kargil they assumed...

I don't think that is a good track record for any military. Too many yes men, not enough people arguing against them.

I'll take yours one at a time...
- As far as stockpiles are concerned, i dont know about the other side, but ours is now in MONTHS, not even days or weeks, exact months i know but cant specify here.
-There is an increasing possibility of great powers stepping in due to the nuc capability of both sides. A nuclear war in sub-continent would be a bad news for half the world.
- Till 1971, we made a mistake which the real reason of costing us dearly till then in all wars. What we learnt, and what we follow as well in our planning at the highest level, is that you always plan based upon enemy's CAPABILITY, not his INTENTIONS. Examples, we thought that Indians INTENDED to restrict to Kashmir in 1965, even though they had the CAPABILITY to open the international border. Our other follies can all be linked to this one singular aspect which we learnt later. You can compare our performance in 80s and 90s, even in the last two decades. Thts the result of self-appraisal after the 70s and the effects of our improved military institutions.

Interesting thread here, thanks for tagging me.

I will follow and hopefully resurrect some visual analysis from the ORBAT maps I made earlier last year. Maybe zoom into specific areas and we can discuss/analyse more there (ofc on positions + doctrines that are available to public).

For now I will let you guys continue some more conversation for now.

@PanzerKiel hope you stick around, your analysis in various threads so far has been a treat to read!

Thanks for the compliments. Lets see what you come up with.

 

[Nilgiri]

Low quality (fuzzy) sample (easy to upload) of the orbat map I made, just to give you an idea of the larger area snap I took:

I have Higher quality one i will have to reupload somewhere, coz the old link is broken. It will lend itself very well for if you want to do a tactical analysis in particular area of interest (say akhnoor etc)...but we will have to account for the difference in detail between two sides (I got much more info from Pak side for example, so its not 100% equivalent stuff).

I actually have it mapped out for all of India (central, eastern as well) and Pakistan (southern as well)...but that file is immense and I have not combined it into this snap. That would be for even later analysis if we are interested.

This was the thread lot of the info was shared between members earlier if you are interested in the related convo +underlying sources etc then:

https://defence.pk/pdf/threads/retaking-kashmir-after-70-years.603628/page-15#post-11280838

Can check pages before and after, you can see what the gestation and development process (slow on my end because it was just hobby free time when I got it) was.

I would be happy to zoom in as you guys want to take it here, but again depends on free time we all have.