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A New Freedom Struggle For India

My real personal views of God are inappropriate for this forum, and can only lead to a ban.

I too tread carefully when talking about religion and my relationship with the almighty.

Another topic, over which I can't elaborate due to the impending threat of a ban is BIMARUs.

Trust me, my views on them are mmmm... Scintillating.


This is my only complaint about S. Asian cultures: our peoples are so sensitive and prickly. When I talk to someone from India or other countries in the neighborhood, I can't help feeling choked (always have to be wary something coming out of my mouth that will offend X person of Y religion). There are certain things I just can't discuss with S. Asians. :what:

Well, you lucked out because being 'illegal' isn't related to religion. :omghaha:



On the whole, I agree with you, people from S-Asia are quick to take offense at even the slightest misunderstanding.

As it so happens, my command of traditional Bengali is quite weak, so I refuse to speak it, lest I offend someone, you know how these Desis are they might think I'm mocking them.

Usually isn't a problem though, because I speak my own local language just fine (district language).



I'm very wary of speaking to Arabs about politics and America and the west, even the most liberal ones hate the west and these people have short tempers.



Overall, I don't get allow with what I call 'flowers'; people who can't take a joke or a jibe in jest.

It's automatic, I just converse with them for five minutes and the computations run in the back of my head, I immediately feel repulsed by them and then I end the conversation right there.


I've taken many a verbal beatdown from my school teachers, because I used to study in an Indian school and still point out India's shortfalls.


The Indians I got along with loved my scathing remarks, outspokenness and often borderline insensitive comments.

I'm still the same, although I have reined in the latter.


I wish there were more people who could take criticism about their nation in their stride, such people are so much more interesting.
 
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May be off-topic, But why didn't Jinnah make similar arrangements for the Minorities in his own state?
Or even now would an elected Government of Pakistan make similar arrangements in its constitution based on it's own founding principals. Can Pakistan apply the fourteen points in its own context today?

>In the Central Legislature, Minority representation shall not be less than one third.
>No bill or resolution or any part thereof shall be passed in any legislature or any other elected body if three fourths of the members of any community in that particular body oppose it as being injurious to the interests of that community.
>No cabinet, either central or provincial, should be formed without there being a proportion of at least one-third Minority ministers.
Just asking?

There are various reasons, too many to mention here so I will attempt a shortened answer.

Regarding India, all the leadership did was to swap chairs, the entire apparatus that makes up a nation-state was already in place, civil service, finances, armed forces, and everything, that same day if an order was given, you could be assured it would be carried out.
And the total number of refugees flowing into India amounted to around 5-6 million from West Pakistan I am not sure how many came from East Pakistan but it was a lot fewer, so less than 2% of India's total population.

Pakistan, on the other hand, had nothing, everything had to be built and organised, a nation separated by a 1000 miles of hostile territory, these regions were the most backward areas and underdeveloped areas of British India. The basket of problems Pakistan faced were mountainous in comparison to India.

Almost 7 million refugees flowed into West Pakistan, I am a little uncertain of numbers regarding East Pakistan, so refugees accounted for nearly 25% of the population, that's 1 in 4 person being a refugee. If it was just the case of just making political and legislative decisions, you could say they could have made different choices, but the choices you make are influenced by the circumstances in which you find yourselves.

Jinnan was speaking for nearly 25% of India's population when he spoke for Muslim rights, British India had large chunks of territories with Muslim majorities, so he did have justifiable reasons.

According to the 1951 census, West Pakistan had just under 3% non-Muslim population, and East Pakistan about 20% I think. Right now Pakistan has a non-Muslim population of about 3.5%, so the reasons you suggested could not automatically apply, neither was there a demand from the minority groups because the situation was totally different, in how the minorities were distributed, and they did not constitute sufficient numbers for that demand to be viable.
 
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I'm very wary of speaking to Arabs about politics and America and the west, even the most liberal ones hate the west and these people have short tempers.

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Hah hah. Don't even get me started on the short tempers of GCC Arabs.

I often hear the word, "Khallas!" in their verbal arguments. :rofl: As if somebody's going to die next moment........they look like a pack of jokers when they get that emotional.

Only the BIMARU's of India are exactly like them in terms of emotional state. :smitten:
 
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Hah hah. Don't even get me started on the short tempers of GCC Arabs.

I often hear the word, "Khallas!" in their verbal arguments. :rofl: As if somebody's going to die next moment........they look like a pack of jokers when they get that emotional.

Only the BIMARU's of India are exactly like them in terms of emotional state. :smitten:


With BIMARUs, it usually ends in a lynching or a gang (can't say this, I'll get banned).
 
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The Indians I got along with loved my scathing remarks, outspokenness and often borderline insensitive comments.

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Say anything against Mahatma Gandhi, and you're dead. :yahoo:

Everyone else is fair game as far as I'm concerned. I rarely take offence. I like to discuss everything, especially the taboo and banned topics.
 
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Say anything against Mahatma Gandhi, and you're dead. :yahoo:

Everyone else is fair game as far as I'm concerned. I rarely take offence. I like to discuss everything, especially the taboo and banned topics.


I adore Gandhi, part of him anyway, India desperately needs to reconnect with his teachings, then again we all know the same people who killed him are in power right now.


I can't wrap my head around it, how the killers of the father of a nation, got elected to the lead that very nation less than a century later, makes no sense.


It would be like Hasina going through all the trouble to get her father's killers extradited from the US, only for her to put them in power instead of executing them.

If you didn't know, her father is the father of the nation, in relation to Bangladesh.





I can tell, we would get along quite well in real-life, I have a penchant for offending stuck-up people, especially chest beating nationalists.
 
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I can tell, we would get along just fine in real-life, I have a penchant for offending stuck-up people, especially nationalists.

Hah hah. I like dangerous people...Kudos

One of the best compliments any girl ever gave me: "Shanty (that's my nick), you should come with a warning label like a cigarette packet." That wasn't my wife (thankfully). :rofl::rofl:
 
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I have read your piece, and enjoyed it thoroughly.

Like you, my religiosity is zero. Technically, I'm non-Muslim, but not much of a Hindu either. My Nani was a devout Muslim from the Valley and I spent my formative years under her influence. Some of it has taken root, so like you I too love the sound of the Adhan. I don't want to bore about my background details (that topic has been done to death in many threads). My real personal views of God are inappropriate for this forum, and can only lead to a ban. So let's leave it at that.

The only point I was trying to make is that S. Asians invoke God a lot more than any other groups. It's about the overt displays of religion which is common to all S. Asians, irrespective of what religion they follow. God is so interwoven into our cultures and traditions that you can't say anything without being aware of the million taboos.

Religion is a very sensitive issue in S. Asia. If you offend someone's religious beliefs in the West, they will disagree politely and move on. In India, it can lead to a mob lynching. I don't even want to get into Pakistan for my chosen example (see, how cautiously I'm treading here. ) :rofl:

This is my only complaint about S. Asian cultures: our peoples are so sensitive and prickly. When I talk to someone from India or other countries in the neighborhood, I can't help feeling choked (always have to be wary something coming out of my mouth that will offend X person of Y religion). There are certain things I just can't discuss with S. Asians. :what:

I did not pass any judgment whether it is right or wrong. That example of alcohol use was very badly framed, I meant that in a more holistic sense. But I agree with your following remark:



Re: your last point - whether our countries should become any more religious than they already are, at least I can speak for India: it will be a disaster worse than what Zia-Ul-Haq had unleashed in your country.

I surely don't want cows to get citizenship IDs, a temple on every damn corner, and Vedic Science being taught at Indian Universities.

But as it turns out, most Indians have really "moved on" in the religious sense as you described here. So I'm now a nobody to tell them anything.

There is a great generational gap between me (I'm nearing 40) and the younger Indians of today.

I understand where you are coming from, I think regarding God issues the same would apply to Pakistan as it does in India. But because the laws are clear, it is not an issue, and such things just don't happen baring an odd incident. Right or wrong, I prefer the legal process over mob justice any day. That is the crux of my argument that we need to recognise the differences within us as individuals and as a group and apply that nationally.

And, because Pakistan has, it is in a better place for it, riots and mob lynching is not a thing in Pakistan (no motives, just a fact as part of the point), and I believe soon as Indian society finds its place, at least I hope, it will find peace.

Pakistan did go through a lot of turmoil, but a lot of it has to do with the Afghanistan wars of the 1980s, 90s, and onwards, and the Saudi/Iran Sunni/Shia rivalry. I am not a fan of Zia, but I think he is slightly misunderstood and too readily blamed for too many things.

I have started a private discussion with Joe, which has not got going as yet, for a certain reason. You are welcome to join if you wish, I don't know if one is allowed to say what they want in a private discussion, I'm just not familiar with it, but certainly, there are no barriers from my side.

P.S.
I joined with an explicit intention not to share my bio, except things that won't create a picture of who I am, I enjoy arguing/discussing the point, not the person. I feel once people develop a certain picture of a person, they keep judging you, not your words. I hope you won't mind.
 
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I have started a private discussion with Joe, which has not got going as yet, for a certain reason. You are welcome to join if you wish, I don't know if one is allowed to say what they want in a private discussion, I'm just not familiar with it, but certainly, there are no barriers from my side.

P.S.
I joined with an explicit intention not to share my bio, except things that won't create a picture of who I am, I enjoy arguing/discussing the point, not the person. I feel once people develop a certain picture of a person, they keep judging you, not your words. I hope you won't mind.

There are no such rules or barriers as far as I'm concerned. I do comment on every topic I find interesting. Some people here have the bad habit of butting in a conversation they weren't a part of, and then steer it in another direction. But I usually have great discussions on many topics with @masterchief_mirza and a few other Pakistani users. These are public discussions, not private in any sense. But I don't worry too much about the interrupting agents nowadays (the mod's have greatly helped me in that regard).

There is no expectation that you reveal your identity in an Internet forum. So carry on, and enjoy the discussions.
 
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A new freedom struggle for India must be based on a new nationalism. No short-cuts will do

Pratap Bhanu Mehta is right about death of secularism. But he doesn’t answer why the entire spectrum of Hindu public opinion turned against secularism.

YOGENDRA YADAV 19 August, 2020 2:05 pm IST

Brilliant answers. But what was the question? That is how I look back at the rich, furious and short-lived debate on secularism after 5 August. My quick reaction to Ayodhya Ram Mandir bhoomi pujan, in line with what I have written and spoken repeatedly, triggered some of these responses. While I was happy that the provocation finally succeeded in getting Pratap Mehta, among my favourite political commentators, to offer a brilliant response, I wasn’t sure if I could get him to address the real questions.

This is not academic nuance. The future of India depends on how we pose and answer these three questions about Indian secularism: What is the state of its health? Why did it reach where it did? And what is to be done now?

In my various interventions on this issue, I have suggested that the idea of a secular republic is now in dire state. In 2019, we crossed the Rubicon, and are now in a naked majoritarian state that still keeps the fiction of a secular constitution alive, as long as the judiciary does not take it seriously. In this sense, secularism is as good as dead. Over the years, I have got tired of just blaming the Sangh Parivar for this demise of the secular state. While repeatedly noting the Bharatiya Janata Party’s (BJP) criminal culpability and the anti-national credentials of the Rashtriya Swayamsevak Sangh (RSS), I have also held the secular ‘establishment’ responsible for the present state of affairs. Specifically, I blame opportunistic politicians and deracinated intellectuals who passed off as guardians of secularism. The way forward, therefore, is not merely a political battle to vote out this government. We need to engage in a long-term cultural battle, where secularism must speak our languages and learn the language of religions and traditions.

Similar analysis
Pratap Mehta does not seem to disagree with the first part of my assessment, about the death of secularism. Suhas Palshikar has recently offered a similar reading. Shekhar Gupta disagrees, as he recounts the multiple times the death of secularism has been announced. That’s true. But isn’t it also true that big ideals like democracy and secularism die many deaths? Isn’t it our duty to record and dissect every time something dies in these foundational dreams? Shekhar thinks that what has died is just the opportunistic minorityism masquerading as secularism. It has, and no one should shed a tear. But is that all? Or are the rumours about everyday discrimination, lynching, the new citizenship law and the strange silence of the apex judiciary also wildly exaggerated? Is Shekhar waiting for the unlikely official declaration of a theocratic state before recognising the death of secularism?

Different diagnosis
Pratap Bhanu Mehta’s real objection is to my diagnosis that he finds it “historically problematic, philosophically dubious and culturally dangerous”. Strong words! He offers strong arguments as well: It is historically inaccurate to think that the problem of communalism arose in India due to a lack of theological or religious dialogue; it was and continues to be a political issue “born in the crucible of democracy and nationalism”. Similarly, the contest today is not about the nature of religiosity, but about the politics of “marginalising Muslims from the Indian narrative”. It is ethically wrong to allow politics to define true religion. It is a slippery cultural slope to grant that Hinduism and our languages have been neglected, because it gives in to the false victimology of Hindus.

Actually, I agree with Pratap. Almost. When I complain that secularists do not engage with the language of religion and traditions, I do not for a minute believe that such an engagement would have persuaded L.K. Advani not to undertake the rath yatra. I too tremble at the thought of political leaders deciding who is a true Hindu or a true Muslim. And yes, I have held myself back for long from public critique of secular ideas and practices lest it become fodder for the biggest propaganda machine of our times. But now, we have reached a stage where there is no option except honest public introspection.


Once the secularists face the truth of their defeat or even a ‘setback’ as Rajeev Bhargava puts it, they must ask: why did we lose this political battle? It is easy to blame the opportunistic and inept politics of ‘secular’ political parties on this score. The deeper question is: why did we lose the battle of ideas that prepared the ground for a political defeat? Why has the entire spectrum of Hindu public opinion turned against secularism? Pratap does not engage with this difficult question in his eloquent critique. When he does, I am sure he would agree with me that it is lazy to blame Right-wing propaganda alone. Custodians of secularism must take the blame for this.

Those who wrote history, those who wrote textbooks, those who shaped public opinion, those who presided over education – they all failed. People Like Us failed. We failed because we failed to connect. And we failed to connect to the commonsense of the ordinary Hindus, because we did not speak their language, literally and metaphorically. The social distance, cultural illiteracy and intellectual arrogance of the deracinated secular elite contributed a good deal to de-legitimisation of secularism. There is no avoiding this harsh conclusion.

Divergent readings
Pratap Bhanu Mehta thinks that I over-estimate the control of some Left-liberal scholars on Indian academia. I don’t. Their presence was limited to a few campuses, but they set the template for pretty much rest of India’s higher education in social sciences and the humanities. The NCERT books were more or less copied by most state boards. The Left-liberal establishment controlled the public and the private media until the 1980s. Pratap lists a number of illustrious Hindi writers who were secular in orientation. He is spot-on: I cannot think of even 10 non-secular Hindi writers of some repute in post-Independence India, a point recognised by Ashutosh Bhardwaj. I suppose the same is true of most Indian languages. But that is my point: bhasha intellectuals did not give up on secularism. The secular establishment gave up on non-English intellectuals, as did the media empires in the bhashas.

This may be a small difference. A more serious difference may arise if we go into the depth of how the secular establishment handled Hinduism. True, much of the sense of injury that the majority community carries today, in the midst of majoritarian stream-rolling, is manufactured. It is also true that seculars have been indifferent to all religions. Yet, today, we cannot afford to dodge the inconvenient question: was it not kosher in intellectual circles to mock at Hinduism more than any other religions? Is it not fashionable even today to reduce Hinduism to the worst feature of Indian society, namely the caste system? Doesn’t the secular response to Hinduism resemble the colonial response?

Pratap worries that a focus on intellectual Hindu-bashing might distract from the reality of Muslim-bashing on the streets. The trouble is that the two are connected. Ideological Hinduism-bashing has robbed secular politics of the cultural resources with which to combat Islamophobia and Muslim-bashing of the worst kind.

What’s the prescription?
All this relates to the final operational question: what is to be done? Pratap’s answer is attractive: “a new freedom struggle to salvage individual dignity and rights”. But it is unhelpful, because its passion barely conceals a deep pessimism. Yes, we need nothing short of a new freedom struggle. Yes, we must salvage individual dignity and rights. Yes, we must not keep playing religious hurts against one another. But how do we do that? How do we gather public support for this new freedom struggle? How do we regain legitimacy for the ideals of secularism? Even if the objective is to detach religion from politics, how do we get the public to endorse it? How do we shift the spectrum of public opinion?

Pratap’s sharp analysis doesn’t help me answer this all-important question of our times. There are no short-cuts. Older formulas of countering Hindu communalism with Bahujan majoritarianism or regional politics has not worked. We cannot depend upon electoral arithmetic to correct the excesses of democracy. A clever calculus of short-term political gains would, in fact, push the opposition parties towards playing the game on the BJP’s wicket, something that most opposition parties have started doing. This is not going to defeat the BJP. Even if it does, it won’t lead to salvaging the spirit of secularism. Movements on real-life economic issues are certainly the way forward, but these too require cultural and ideological acceptance.

There is no way except to take on the cultural and ideological acceptance of toxic majoritarianism. There is no way except to craft a new and more attractive nationalism. And for this, there is no way except what the RSS did for decades: enter into difficult dialogue with ordinary people. And for that there is no way except speak the peoples’ language. The battle to save the republic must involve popular debates in Indian languages that invoke and reinterpret our cultural traditions and religions, including Hinduism. Speaking religious language does not mean uncritically accepting whatever any religious text says or reiterating the lessons of piety or foregrounding religion as the issue of politics. What we call religion or traditions provide the alphabet of moral sensibility for most Indians.

You can quarrel with words, but not with the alphabet. You must use the given alphabet to create your own new words. A commitment to the idea of India must involve resistance to the idea of a majoritarian India. Yet, a new idea of India cannot be forged out of a phoney, imitative cosmopolitanism that pretends to outgrow nationalism. It must be grounded in those aspects of our traditions that allow us to build a just future. That remains the principal challenge for secular politics. We could begin by looking for a word for ‘secularism’, other than dharma nirpekshata or panth nirpekshata, which has some resonance in our languages.

Pratap suspects that I am looking for the key where the light happens to be. And he is right. I have put the spotlight of causal reasoning and future responsibility on those who swear by the ideal of a secular India, for it is pointless to keep blaming those who have no investment in this ideal. We must focus on what was wrong with us and how we can do things differently. Unlike a political analyst, a political activist must search for keys where the light is.

https://theprint.in/opinion/new-fre...edium=push_notification&utm_campaign=ThePrint

There is something that seems very suitable here .
For every action there will be an equal and opposite reaction.
There was no such Secularism in post independent India .It was already dead once Late Hon PM Shastri gone from this world .
From Indira's time practical vote bank politics began to initiated .
From there it was just a downfall.In 75 she tampered the Constitution written by the Dr Ambedkar .

Have you seen the reaction of masses when the PM said about the sanitary napkins during Aug 15 speech?
Womens from all spectrum ,Rich ,poor , everyone just appreciated it.
How many years passed since we got independence ? The situation that created by successive govts can be seen in this incident .
That points us to the next question.
Where are we stands now ?
Cambridge ,Oxford leftist elites from the Ivory castle in Delhi ignored this basic .
In all these years they want to practice self righteousness , democracy and secularism at the expense of majority .
They didnt care what will happen once the majority
become minority .Only thing they knows about the Hinduism was the Caste system and was in front to mock them.
How many times they did insult Hindu goddess and culture?
In Kerala we had seen that enough and got enough experience from Sabarimala .
How many times did they insulted the Brahmins ,because something happened 100s of years ago ?
Brahmins ,the so called uppercast, most of them are in poverty now .
And they just convinently ignore the situation on other side .
Where were this leftist intelluctuals when ShahBanu verdict of SC was sabotaged by the majority in Parliament by Congress ?
In conclusion the so called leftist made this situation starts even before the independence.
It was the failure of Khilafat movement and gruesome episode of fanatiscm in 1921 in Malabar riot ( happens in several other parts in India) caused the establishment of RSS .
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Until last decade , the Indian history taught by the educational institutions was full of the achievements of Mughal rule ,I know that because I had followed the same .
But the IVC or Mauryan dynasty was just in one page .
Even in the historical text they were just tried to implement leftism and patronizing foreign invasion.
Sangh Parivar revolutionized their approach and got in touch with poor masses .
Modi Govt just realized their basic needs .
Now for a new nationalism.?

First of all opposition must avoid psuedo secularism.Creates a new political culture of development ,technology etc .
Something BJP is already began to implementing .
 
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I will recall the migrant laborer woman who died of hunger at a Bihar railway station not too long ago. She died because she didn't have money to buy food.

Such incidents, as also others like farmer suicides, have happened since the inception of modern India in 1947.

Against such incidents why did the BJP government spend 300 crore rupees on building an absolutely unnecessary statue of Vallabhbhai Patel ? And there is the planned even bigger statue of Lord Ram that is supposed to cost 2500 crore rupees. Don't you see the utter waste of resources ?



Those tagged non-Indians can bring their own understanding of the issue based on their general human instinct as well as knowledge and experience from their own countries.
First of all I am not agreed with every BJP policy like building statue or Huge Ram Mandir. Mandir can be build in short amount.
But overall BJP is doing great. Taking big decisions. Corruption reduced. Foreign policy is excellent. More Indians paying taxes now. Swatch Bharat. Jan Dhan yojna. Atamnirbhar is getting pace. Army is more stronger. FDI increased. Forex reserved increased with good pace. More foreign company is coming to invest now. Ease of Bussiness getting better. People are more aware of their rights now. Appeasement politics ends. Everyone is treated equally now.
 
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Indians will have to put in the hard yards and remove the vile exclusionist who now find themselves in power, cleanse every facet of their society of these beings and introspect & redefine who and what makes an Indian and more importantly what it means to be Indian.



The alternative to this is an endless abyss of Darkness, no less and no more.


As we speak, Indian society falls deeper into this boundless chasm of hatred, anarchy and majoritarianism.


The liberal Indian civil society needs to seize control of India, away from these vile pseudo Indians.


In this endeavour, they have my full support, irrespective of whether it matters, the sentiment stands.


I want India to go back to the way it was and Indians to be more like the Indians of the past, the ones I knew and grew up with.

Let the Indians become whatever they want .
Why you are soo concerned about it?
 
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First of all I am not agreed with every BJP policy like building statue or Huge Ram Mandir. Mandir can be build in short amount.
But overall BJP is doing great. Taking big decisions. Corruption reduced. Foreign policy is excellent. More Indians paying taxes now. Swatch Bharat. Jan Dhan yojna. Atamnirbhar is getting pace. Army is more stronger. FDI increased. Forex reserved increased with good pace. More foreign company is coming to invest now. Ease of Bussiness getting better. People are more aware of their rights now. Appeasement politics ends. Everyone is treated equally now.

BJP politics was build on the Mandir .
It was just a pawn for larger goals.
For a big majority , it gives alots of psychological advantage
 
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