A NEW AIRCRAFT FOR PAF

[Arsalan]

Sir,
J-10 a,b,c have been discussed over and over again on PDF. The final conclusion that they all came to was this aircraft is history.

Few very important reasons that make perfect sence to make this aircraft history are:
1) This aircraft is designed on the same principle of JF-17. So it indicates the philosophy either / or between JF-17 and J-10.

2) PAF from day one had invested heavily in JF-17 so going after J-10 would have split the orders making it more difficult for PAF to manage operational costs. Hence development of JF-17 was preferred as it gave PAF a product that it could say is totally their own however Chinese efforts and expertise can not be disregarded.

3) The Engine that powers the J-10's is Russian which is being used on Indian Su- 30MKI and is prohibited for export to Pakistan. Cost of developing an other engine like the Russian did with JF-17 was too expensive.

4) PAF can upgrade the JF-17 to capabilities to J-10's with the only limitation of more Fuel. Hence there is no advantage over on e and other/


Sir,
As far as all the members on PDF concerned that trying to find what went into the construction of J-10 B are already using in the JF-17 hence this (J-10) platform does not fulfil the requirement of PAF.

Pakistan can not buy Flankers because Pakistan did not considered Afghanistan and Iraq as potential enemies

Y
Your assessment is very wrong. PAF would purcades

Not sure why you quoted me?
You want me to share my views on this post or to confirm what you said?


I am surprised as i think you know i will disagree with some points here.

 

[ACE OF THE AIR]

Not sure why you quoted me?
You want me to share my views on this post or to confirm what you said?


I am surprised as i think you know i will disagree with some points here.

By mistake pressed the post reply too early before all the the quotes were replied. Please see the complete edited post above.

 

[Ultima Thule]

I will appreciate if you don't enlighten this thread readers with your wisdom from further on .........

and you have all wisdom for that forumit is a news can be partially wrong or full and BTW it is a open forum i have full right share my thought with other you can't stop me

 

[aliyusuf]

J-10 a,b,c have been discussed over and over again on PDF. The final conclusion that they all came to was this aircraft is history.

If you feel you need to toe that line of thought rigidly and dogmatically then be my guest. Situation and circumstances change and with it so do long standing theories and perceived options. Recent events show that it will be becoming increasingly difficult for the PAF to get western weapons on favorable terms from the west with the increasing influence of Indian lobbies. In that context considering the latest variant of the J-10 series as an alternative is logical.

Few very important reasons that make perfect sence to make this aircraft history are:
1) This aircraft is designed on the same principle of JF-17. So it indicates the philosophy either / or between JF-17 and J-10.

Really? J-10 from the outset was designed to be the best China can do to get a formidable single engine air superiority fighter ... which later with passage of time took on the mantle of a multirole fighter with changing requirements over passage of time. JF-17 from the outset was to be the best multirole fighter that the PAF could get within a budget. So there were compromises made to keep the costs down. The only reason the PAF cancelled the FC-20 program was that by the time the J-10's variant that was good enough to be FC-20 PAF was short on funds and the evolution of the JF-17 was proving trickier than they had initially anticipated. The country was facing challenges from bad governance and runaway corruption.

2) PAF from day one had invested heavily in JF-17 so going after J-10 would have split the orders making it more difficult for PAF to manage operational costs. Hence development of JF-17 was preferred as it gave PAF a product that it could say is totally their own however Chinese efforts and expertise can not be disregarded.

Partially alluded to in my response above ... yes agreed. But that doesn't stop from considering the J-10C as an F-16 contingency now.

3) The Engine that powers the J-10's is Russian which is being used on Indian Su- 30MKI and is prohibited for export to Pakistan. Cost of developing an other engine like the Russian did with JF-17 was too expensive

I would appreciate it if you could provide some link that supports the above statement. By that logic, RD-93 is also a modified (gear box re-arranged, max-output tweaked) version of RD-33 that powered the IAF MiG-29s and should be prohibited for export. India does not have the AL-31FN Series 3 on its Su-30MKI but an older version of the engine with almost 10kN less power.

4) PAF can upgrade the JF-17 to capabilities to J-10's with the only limitation of more Fuel. Hence there is no advantage over on e and other/

Lets agree to disagree on this. I know many people think of it this way. I am somewhat of a different opinion. If the coming blocks of the JF-17 even had the potential to equal the J-10C in the coming years ... we would have witnessed more interest from the PLAAF in inducting it.

Sir,
As far as all the members on PDF concerned that trying to find what went into the construction of J-10 B are already using in the JF-17 hence this (J-10) platform does not fulfil the requirement of PAF.

You are welcome to your opinion. Yet to hear of the level of RAM coating that has been used on J-10C for any of the future blocks of the Thunder. Plus being bigger gives it more room for future upgrades and more powerful components.

USA would provide the latest technology when it thinks Pakistan is the only option.

And we are to wait till that happens?
Again ... lets agree to disagree.

 

[abdulbarijan]

We have to take this info with a pinch of salt, and I'm sure all the members that have been on this forum or following it from the time frame of 07/08 know first hand, that while some insider information may very well be accurate, however with the continuous change in internal and external environment, plans can and do change.
The biggest example being the FC-20 saga, where there were very strong indications to the point where our defence minister was discussing the acquisition. It all started with some insider info and blew up over the years and today here we stand with no FC-20 in the PAF. I remember back in 2010 I made a trip to KSA and due to some coincidence ended up meeting with a PAF aeronautical engineer. At this point the news of FC-20 was big and the FC-20 thread was probably the second most active thread in the PAF section. I asked him about the FC-20, and he gave what seemed to be " we're not really that interested" kind of vibe regarding the topic.

The point being, the insider information that we end up hearing about from well placed sources is just a snippet of what the PAF is thinking at a specific period of time under specific conditions and with such a dynamic environment, plans CAN change.

To get the big picture we would need to analyze the environment, what changes are expected in said environment, and what steps we can take to manage the effects of the change that is brought in to the said environment. The most imminent change is the arrival of Rafale. With the new F-16 blk 52's becoming a more distant option, the plans are now to go for Ex-RJAF falcons and probably upgrading them with Turkey. Meanwhile we continue to slowly and steadily work on the JFT and making it more potent. While our newer members are much more hyped about the upgrades in blk-III, and bummed that block II doesn't have what was reported by some sources -- the real "difference maker" in my opinion would be the integration of the more potent weapons coming out of China and South Africa (Denel) -- Suddenly you would have an airforce with around a 100-120 mainstay platforms that can use 5th gen WVRAAM's and and highly advanced BVRAAM's in an environment where the enemy is at close proximity and the normal advantages that heavies have against light weights are negotiated to a degree ... not to mention the falcon in numbers that we are looking for would be a factor as well ... By 2020 we are looking at a decent modernized & potent PAF, even if a new platform is not inducted.

The factors that will sway us to have a new platform is the threat perception of the IAF with the addition of rafale, and the time frame when J-31 will become available. If the J-31 is perceived to become available for export somewhere like post 2025, then there would be a very strong case to go for a high end aircraft. If it becomes available around 2020-2024, then there is the case for going directly towards a 5th gen. The info given by the Haris Khan seems to suggest that J-31 is a bit more distant then what we thought to be, therefore the effort is to go towards a 4.5 gen aircraft that can negotiate what the environment will be in the next half a decade. Or there may also be a possibility of putting pressure on the U.S to give us the original deal along with more block-52's by demonstrating that " we have other options as well" -- Now if we take this information on face value ... the question becomes of which platform is under consideration ... The Euoropean options will be quite expensive, hence the probability of getting a EF-2000 or Rafale is not that high. Gripen isn't needed at all since JFT is in service. Any jet from the U.S except second hand F-16's from other operators seems like a dream at this point. The only suppliers left are either China or Russia. Hence most likely it will be a flanker from either Russia or China that might join PAF ranks if the information revealed is accurate...

 

[ACE OF THE AIR]

If you feel you need to toe that line of thought rigidly and dogmatically then be my guest. Situation and circumstances change and with it so do long standing theories and perceived options. Recent events show that it will be becoming increasingly difficult for the PAF to get western weapons on favorable terms from the west with the increasing influence of Indian lobbies. In that context considering the latest variant of the J-10 series as an alternative is logical.


Really? J-10 from the outset was designed to be the best China can do to get a formidable single engine air superiority fighter ... which later with passage of time took on the mantle of a multirole fighter with changing requirements over passage of time. JF-17 from the outset was to be the best multirole fighter that the PAF could get within a budget. So there were compromises made to keep the costs down. The only reason the PAF cancelled the FC-20 program was that by the time the J-10's variant that was good enough to be FC-20 PAF was short on funds and the evolution of the JF-17 was proving trickier than they had initially anticipated. The country was facing challenges from bad governance and runaway corruption.


Partially alluded to in my response above ... yes agreed. But that doesn't stop from considering the J-10C as an F-16 contingency now.


I would appreciate it if you could provide some link that supports the above statement. By that logic, RD-93 is also a modified (gear box re-arranged, max-output tweaked) version of RD-33 that powered the IAF MiG-29s and should be prohibited for export. India does not have the AL-31FN Series 3 on its Su-30MKI but an older version of the engine with almost 10kN less power.


Lets agree to disagree on this. I know many people think of it this way. I am somewhat of a different opinion. If the coming blocks of the JF-17 even had the potential to equal the J-10C in the coming years ... we would have witnessed more interest from the PLAAF in inducting it.


You are welcome to your opinion. Yet to hear of the level of RAM coating that has been used on J-10C for any of the future blocks of the Thunder. Plus being bigger gives it more room for future upgrades and more powerful components.


And we are to wait till that happens?
Again ... lets agree to disagree.

Here are a few interesting links that can answer most of you doubts.

https://defence.pk/threads/analysis-pafs-fighter-modernization-roadmap-part-1.423139/

https://defence.pk/threads/jf-17-thunders-armament.297771/

https://defence.pk/threads/pakistan-might-consider-the-klimov-rd-33mk-for-jf-17.427787/

https://defence.pk/threads/jf17-blk4-major-upgrade-replacement-for-f16s.425822/

https://defence.pk/threads/major-changes-ahead-on-jf-17-block-3.394767/

https://defence.pk/threads/jf-17-thunder-multirole-fighter-thread-7.427560/

 

[aliyusuf]

Here are a few interesting links that can answer most of you doubts.

https://defence.pk/threads/analysis-pafs-fighter-modernization-roadmap-part-1.423139/

https://defence.pk/threads/jf-17-thunders-armament.297771/

https://defence.pk/threads/pakistan-might-consider-the-klimov-rd-33mk-for-jf-17.427787/

https://defence.pk/threads/jf17-blk4-major-upgrade-replacement-for-f16s.425822/

https://defence.pk/threads/major-changes-ahead-on-jf-17-block-3.394767/

https://defence.pk/threads/jf-17-thunder-multirole-fighter-thread-7.427560/

I have read all of them before, my friend. I have been around forums a very long time. I can sift information. I also can analyze and draw conclusions on my own.

Been to AERO Kamra and AWC as a vendor back in the mid 90s. I was working as a junior member of a software team which designed and developed the ACMI POC Simulator for the PAF. I am however not an insider. That was my only contact with the air force.

But I do get what you are saying. However, I still think JF-17, although can definitely play the main stay's role in the fleet, but it is not going to be an answer for many future potential high end threats. In fact neither is going to be our F-16 fleet (especially w/o AESA) in a possible threat theatre some 8 to 10 years from now.

The 5th gen platform is not coming before 2025. More likely it might be later than that. The capability gap that might arise till then can only be matched by the induction of intermediate 4.5 gen fighters in the next few years so that time required to absorb the new platform and master it to attain requisite proficiency is available and the potential gap breached before it widens.

Hope I was able to convey my opinion clearly.

 

[ACE OF THE AIR]

I have read all of them before, my friend. I have been around forums a very long time. I can sift information. I also can analyze and draw conclusions on my own.

Been to AERO Kamra and AWC as a vendor back in the mid 90s. I was working as a junior member of a software team which designed and developed the ACMI POC Simulator for the PAF. I am however not an insider. That was my only contact with the air force.

But I do get what you are saying. However, I still think JF-17, although can definitely play the main stay's role in the fleet, but it is not going to be an answer for many future potential high end threats. In fact neither is going to be our F-16 fleet (especially w/o AESA) in a possible threat theatre some 8 to 10 years from now.

The 5th gen platform is not coming before 2025. More likely it might be later than that. The capability gap that might arise till then can only be matched by the induction of intermediate 4.5 gen fighters in the next few years so that time required to absorb the new platform and master it to attain requisite proficiency is available and the potential gap breached before it widens.

Hope I was able to convey my opinion clearly.

JF-17 is a good Point defence fighter, that can deny air supremacy however till some modifications in regard to fuel capacity are made it can not be used as deep penetration aircraft.

India and the West would like that Pakistan only gets Russian or Chinese aircraft because then it is easier for them to device a strategy to counter what they have. Pakistan needs to have a mixed fleet so that they are not compromised.

Pakistan has a few options in this regards but the limiting factor is economy hence Pakistan has to find alternate solution. USA is under obligation till they end War on Terror to remit Pakistan through coalition support fund and all the services rendered trough Pakistan.

Supplying directly could be blocked but through strategic partner programs they can still support. USA can not stop the monitory support but restrict US contents similar to the Air Iran Sanctions. This is where Pakistan has leverage to chary pick what they want and end up with some thing that is very potent.

Fifth Generation Aircraft are limited hence it would take time unless the Chinese and Russians are convinced that NATO is going to attack them very shortly where they would have to increase production and diversify by offering their latest and restricted options. A few days back read news regarding US planning to offer the F-22 to countries that are directly in contact with US interest. However these would not be identical to the US versions but some what scaled down production models.

The countries that are main contenders to these are South Korea, India and NATO member states. The down side of this is Japan, South Korea and Turkey who have invested on a Fifth Generation Fighter program. They would not like to invest in this program but also try to offer other countries cheaper solutions.

An Ideal situation for Pakistan is to have two western and two eastern solutions. For this to materialise PAF has to procure a western engine that can only be possible trough Canada or UK. This opens up TFX and KFX in the future whereas Russian and Chinese engines give all the front line options of eastern Fifth Generation Programs.

 

[SQ8]

For EW PAF would have to purchase larger platforms with low RCS.

Why?

The current Israeli EW system is as capable as any and goes on a pod for their F-16.

 

[Ground_Hawk]

It's either Rafale or used mirage 2000 9. I doubt it will be euro fighter most. However our boys have flown/alongside Chinese variants of the SU30s so just MAYBE we're looking into that. However do su35s support data link 16 !

 

[ACE OF THE AIR]

Why?

The current Israeli EW system is as capable as any and goes on a pod for their F-16.

Can PAF acquire this?

May be PAF uses the JF-17B as a dedicated EW platform which can stay well within Pakistan and effectively provide coverage deep inside enemy country.

 

[Pakistanisfirst]

High end aircraft will be only JF-17 block-3 or J-31, no other option for Pakistan at all and not in the budget as well. Pakistan never has the strategy to adopt twin engine heavy jets.
So its is useless to talk about rafale or any su-35 etc Pak is on the right track and will acquire jets as its demand and requirements.

 

[CHI RULES]

Ooh bahi!!
NOT ME!!
Plus there is a difference between CAN and WILL.
I am not sure EF is something we would want to go for right now or should go for right now.


Electronic Warfare!!
One thing that interests me in JH7. It is more or less the growler of PLAAF and would be an interesting prospect. Even if we do not got for this, getting some goodies incorporated in our future JF17s would work well for us.

Dear Sir do JH 7 has growler like EW suite.

Can PAF acquire this?

May be PAF uses the JF-17B as a dedicated EW platform which can stay well within Pakistan and effectively provide coverage deep inside enemy country.

Though JH7b is improved version yet not stealthy and has lower service ceiling so have no survivability chance within enemy territory.

 

[Arsalan]

Dear Sir do JH 7 has growler like EW suite.


Though JH7b is improved version yet not stealthy and has lower service ceiling so have no survivability chance within enemy territory.

It is reported to carry EW PODs and is the main EW fighter/bomber plane of PLAAF. It is reported that the role will be taken up by J16 is the future in shape of a combination of integrated EW suite and external POD. For now that role is performed by JH7A and JH7

http://www.thephdefense.com/2015/08...boost-for-plas-electronic-warfare-capability/

Though JH7b is improved version yet not stealthy and has lower service ceiling so have no survivability chance within enemy territory.

With its EW Pods it pitches a competition between stealth and jamming.

 

[PaklovesTurkiye]

Hi,

Enemy aircraft you can take out---but subs---you can't do much.

Really? Then what purpose Maritime patrol Aircraft serves? P8 poseidon? P3c orion? Aren't they used in tracking and hunting subs?