a message to pakistani deep state, ISI , military

[SIPRA]

The best candidate for that are dalit groups of in india that are present all over india, they are marginalized and have genuine grievances but somehow the establishment's focus is always on bearded sikhs which are good for nothing.

May be our Establishment finds something common in Sikhs and themselves.
"Dona day 12 wajjay hoye nain."

 

[Ghost 125]

"alcohol drinking military elite"

Rubbish

 

[shahbaz baig]

 

[xyxmt]

Deep state waqai so ri hai. If they were worth their salt they would've blamed India for the Gawadar carnage and every other carnage 5 times a day in their press release. Seems they do not want to confront Terror Mata.

deep state cannot do that because then ground level state start screaming interference interference, high or at least ground level state has to do the blaming.

 

[Cygnus Black]

If ISI wishes to retaliate to this proxy war by India, inside India, then Maoists/Naxalites are our best bet. Their attacks are highly sophisticated. Kashmiri/Sikh militants can't even hold a candle to them. They are the longest-lasting and most potent insurgency movement in India. And ISI should exploit it to the fullest (and maybe it's already doing it, who knows?)

 

[zulu]

Mery bhai sirf iss py uchal rahy hu kal patwariyon ki posts dikhaoo aisi aisi kharafat ky damagh ghoom jaye (like they were present themselves in corps commander conference ) but about topic its time what u say ?

Rubbish

 

[Ghost 125]

Mery bhai sirf iss py uchal rahy hu kal patwariyon ki posts dikhaoo aisi aisi kharafat ky damagh ghoom jaye (like they were present themselves in corps commander conference ) but about topic its time what u say ?

i have very hawkish beliefs, offcourse i favour action.. but that being said, those at the helm of the affairs have better knowledge than all of PDF think tanks. Only they know the real picture, challange and threat spectrum. We dont hear about a lot of things which is being done that does not mean that they have forsaken the country. There is room for much more i agree but i wish it was that simple. The international establishment also plays its role when you go tough on local collaborator and traitors. yes offcourse we should not pay any attention to what they are saying but then again our economic woes are pulling us down.
about the action itself, i believe that instead of blaming and pointing outward we should first bring our own house in order, we should crush the traitors first, we are becoming a breeding ground for treachery. their is no concept of high treason left in our country, any one can say anything about the very idea of this nation. we crush the local collaborators, rebels, terrorist and these hostile agencies wont find many people to recruit. We have to behave like state first and strike terror of State in the hearts of our own. The only reason every kind of crime(including treason) is rampant is because no one fear the state anymore and thats because their is no justice system. no one is getting punished from a petty thief to a traitor like hussain haqqani.
Now question is, who will do it?? Is Army supposed to do all of that ? as so many of PDF thinktanks think.
NO..Our ordeal wont change unless we change ourselves, all of us, every institution including judiciary, police.

 

[Khurram2349]

Pakistan military establishment has its strengths and weaknesses . ISI has done some great jobs but also left wanting at others. There is one thing which our top military establishment need to change . Wheeling and dealing with the criminals of the nation and ignoring the snakes which later bite the whole nation. This mind set is enriched in our military top brass since the time of Ayub Khan and continuing till now . In my humble opinion our country is facing dead threats right from time of its birth from our enemies only because our existence is based on Islam. Now we are faced by enemies including big super powers like USA and its cronies NATO , Israel , and of course India . Combined all of them then we are no match for their might including resources and budget. Still we should give credit to our military and ISI for holding their ground against these uptil now , however, now we do need some international help to counter these big enemies.

In my humble opinion now is the time to have a strategic relationship with China in a big way including mutual defense pact as well as joint sharing of Intelligence and counter Intelligence operations . Pakistan and China have common enemies and involving China in CPEC has brought Chinese interest more in security of Pakistan . Already Chinese have proved to be only super power which had been reliable since beginning although to be honest we never took advantage of them and instead been always tilted towards West and Americans . Now is the time to fully integrate ourselves with Chinese and learn from them as well as take full advantage of their technology and experience in military and intelligence fields . If we loose this opportunity we may never be able to get it again !

We need to learn to know our friends and enemies and distinguish between them !

 

[khansaheeb]

it is time to wake up and end the reactive mode of operation. the enemy is still striking ( albeit with lesser intensity ) and STILL has secure bases in Afghanistan and Iran. the enemy is exploiting every gap available. its sleeper cells randomly activate and strike targets with impunity and cause first strike damage

1. attack on makran coastal highway . service men are taken off the bus and shot in the head

2. suicide bomber sent to lhr, attacks an unsuspecting police van

3. the apparently missing persons turn up at PC gwadar and wreck mayhem. we lose 2 x guards And a navy commando



ISPR should stop apologizing. we dont need songs or tweets praising the dead commandos. we need blood. simple as that.

FFS, this is hybrid warfare. russia has deployed a whole division in Ukraine wearing masks and simply shrugs off their existence. learn maskirovka, learn black ops .

the enemy must be crushed in its secure basis in afghanistan and iran. if ISI is too afraid to leave a foot print, it can hire killers from the dark web , simple .

deny every thing

be ambiguous

be ruthless. read the art of war FFS

send assassins and hit station chiefs of RAW in Afghanistan. instead of inviting c*** like hamid mir and saleem safi to ISPR briefings and patronizing them, completely black them out and point their crimes . smear their careers


i have been saying this again and again. the pak army understands hy warfare, but its too afraid to practice it . eventually, god forbid, it'll lose it

No, we need commonsense -:"we need blood".
It's the lack of intel that is worrying , it means these operators are not known and probably infiltrated in from Afghanistan, Israel or India. We must support the Baluchis to deal with this problem as soon as possible before they get sucked into polarised sides.

They must step up random searches and checkpoints and start creating safety perimeters around sensitive areas, Pakistan is being attacked from the inside and we must be vigilant. Death to all enemies of Pakistan!

 

[Humble Analyst]

Excellent points, though some facts contradict a few things here and there.

Bajwa may not have the gusto and audacity of his predecessor but he continued many of the same policies. Sidelining of teams is natural in the Fauj where terms are defined. Bajwa's ISI pick, Lt. Gen Naveed Mukhtar, served as DG CT in the ISI before he was promoted (by a board under Raheel) and posted as Corps Commander Khi (after which he was made DG ISI.) This was the time that many RAW and NDS assets started to mysteriously get assassinated in Afghanistan. The Khalistan Movement finally started to see some movement. Anti-State bloggers disappeared for weeks. Huge shortcomings in Bajwa, just like all of his predecessors, but don't underestimate his ability to do what's necessary. Is this ability where it should be? Absolutely not. But it's not as bad as you fear.

Kashmir absolutely doesn't have the kind of support it should. I don't understand what we're so scared of. Some Western criticism? If we play things smart, all we'll have to hear is some complaints and some negative press in Western publications (designed to pressurize us to let anti-State elements operate under "freedom of expression" principles, etc.) --- if we can't even handle that, then how do we expect to stare down hostile intelligence agencies in hardcore ops?!

From talking to people involved, I know for a fact that no COAS or PM in the recent past has been in favor of any sort of escalation with India; therefore the hands of the relevant Wings in the ISI and other places have been tied by the very leaders who are supposed to unleash them to protect our interests. The excuses are always the same: weak economy and being scared of pissing off the West (losing market access, losing IMF, losing aid.) What they don't mention is that the latter also includes losing their own secret stashes in the West, which is also where all their kids study. When this shifts to China (both wealth and progeny), we'll start to see improvement. Till then, there's no hope. Peace.



This has happened before too. Barely anyone showed up. Some people fell asleep. Each PM is briefed for hours at ISI HQ and then on an on-going basis by the DG and the COAS.

It's not about an information shortfall. It's about testicular shortfall.

And please do not forget the economic short fall which helps shrink...
The problem is there is no permanent red line, everything is subject to change and that is a problem
Namely Zardar Bibi NRO and then there are many more compromises
If we stick to principles then we can improve otherwise...

 

[R Wing]

The best candidate for that are dalit groups in india that are present all over india, they are marginalized and have genuine grievances but somehow the establishment's focus is always on bearded sikhs which are good for nothing.

Agreed.

I must tell you that I am a total layman on security matters and issues. So, your post entails a lot of learning for me, and people like me. Thanks.

The highlighted portion in your post reflects, to some extent, my concern. What havoc RAW has played in Pakistan, during the last about 20 years, particularly in terms of its economic implications; we have grossly failed to respond to it. Of course, you have also variously pointed it out.



My objection on the military command structure of the ISI was not with regard to the criteria of professional competence. No. It was more to do with the occupational psychology. I believe that a soldier is trained, on certain well-established professional norms and conventions, which don't go very well with the kind of covert operations, required to be carried out, in other states. They need far more callous and cold professionals. That's why perhaps most of such agencies don't go for the soldiers, who would otherwise appear to be very suitable, for such jobs. That's how I think.



Yes. But India don't accommodate them in their country and hence can maintain its denial, at least, at a public level.



The highlighted portion of your post is what was in my mind. This is where, I think, that ISI has failed, in comparison with RAW. They have used every insurgency in Pakistan, to its hilt, against us.

Once again, thanks.

Sir, thank you for your points.

1.) Regarding the military mindset
Totally agree. A "yessir" culture is not what an intel agency needs. Officers should be able to challenge their superiors and not worry about their promotions being compromised. On the other hand, there are military units, particularly the SSG, whose entire existence has essentially been about operating deep behind enemy lines. Therefore, the ISI relies heavily on the SSG and often hires retired SSG personnel and/or recruits them directly for postings. Do keep in mind that the CIA's covert action arm, the Special Operations Group within the Special Activities Division, is 90% ex-military (particularly special operations forces, just like our SSG.)
So, this is a double-edged sword. Don't forget that civilians can now rise to the level of a Maj. Gen in the ISI, and with hundreds of civilian officers, there is a good mix of thinking. But your point is valid. My point, instead, was that the civilians already have the IB and nobody is stopping them from molding it into a formidable institution (instead it just serves as the eyes and ears of the PM and has become unnecessarily politicized), so the ISI can remain military-dominated.

2.) Regarding housing proxies
You are absolutely right. India has the fortunate (for them) advantage of being able to use Afghan soil for terror activities against us. Simple geography doesn't afford us such a luxury. Of course intel agencies can and do support domestic uprisings in various countries, but you almost always need a neighboring country to do it in so the uprising's leadership has a safe haven.

3.) About the rising discrepancy between the damage done by RAW vs. ISI
Again, do keep in mind that the Kashmir insurgency keeps a group of Indian troops the size of the entire Pakistani Army bogged down in the Valley and therefore unavailable for immediate offensive action. That is quite an achievement. But, other than this, you are absolutely right. And this is a dangerous trend. A visionary of great audacity is needed to reverse it. So far, none is on the horizon it seems. I would just adjust your time period more to the last 10 years (rather than 20.) In the 80s and 90s, about a dozen armed insurgencies were active in India, apparently with ISI support.

 

[ARMalik]

I know a lot of you won't like this but unfortunately the so called DEEP STATE is as corrupt as Nawaz and Zardari. Just look at where this country is economically; look around you at the astounding poverty in Pakistan which has grown out of control. If the Deep State was really the Deep State that CARED for the people of Pakistan then there is ABSOLUTELY NO WAY it would have allowed the blood sucking leeches like Zardari and NS to loot and plunder in such a horrific way. There is no way it would have allowed US to impose a hybrid war nor would have allowed India to use A-Stan to launch terror attacks.

Honestly, the Deep State is not that Deep after all. And its actions show that it does not care for the people of Pakistan.

 

[R Wing]

I know a lot of you won't like this but unfortunately the so called DEEP STATE is as corrupt as Nawaz and Zardari. Just look at where this country is economically; look around you at the astounding poverty in Pakistan which has grown out of control. If the Deep State was really the Deep State that CARED for the people of Pakistan then there is ABSOLUTELY NO WAY it would have allowed the blood sucking leeches like Zardari and NS to loot and plunder in such a horrific way. There is no way it would have allowed to US to impose a hybrid war nor would have allowed India to use A-Stan to launch terror attacks.

Honesty, the Deep State is not that Deep after all. And its actions show that it does not care for the people of Pakistan.

Agreed. No patriot could have ever allowed such leeches to suck the country dry for decades.

 

[CriticalThought]

Agreed. No patriot could have ever allowed such leeches to suck the country dry for decades.

+1 on this. But I think there is a different angle to it. Some time in the mid of the first decade of 21st century (2000-2010) I had the displeasure of having a discussion with a group of Pakistan's most elite liberals. A comment by one of them stood out: things must go to rock bottom before they get better again. The comment was made multiple times to make sure I understand it. Its true significance I only understand today in hindsight. Implied within this was the message that the psyche of people needs to be manipulated through crisis, in order to force them to go through an experience where every single Messiah that they ever relied upon is unable to deliver. Look at the situation today. People don't trust religious parties, they dont trust Mullahs, they don't trust liberals, they don't trust Zardari, Nawaz, and even Imran Khan now. Yes, each segment has supporters, but look at the vast majority and try to imagine what would happen if this continues. People put their hopes in Imran Khan's agenda of fighting corruption. They are now systematically crushing those hopes. The intention is to make them hopeless to the point that when Western Salvation comes to help them and actually delivers results, people will look upon it as ultimate saviors. Either through collision, or through incompetence, the Deep State is party to this. And my suspicion is of collusion.

 

[R Wing]

+1 on this. But I think there is a different angle to it. Some time in the mid of the first decade of 21st century (2000-2010) I had the displeasure of having a discussion with a group of Pakistan's most elite liberals. A comment by one of them stood out: things must go to rock bottom before they get better again. The comment was made multiple times to make sure I understand it. Its true significance I only understand today in hindsight. Implied within this was the message that the psyche of people needs to be manipulated through crisis, in order to force them to go through an experience where every single Messiah that they ever relied upon is unable to deliver. Look at the situation today. People don't trust religious parties, they dont trust Mullahs, they don't trust liberals, they don't trust Zardari, Nawaz, and even Imran Khan now. Yes, each segment has supporters, but look at the vast majority and try to imagine what would happen if this continues. People put their hopes in Imran Khan's agenda of fighting corruption. They are now systematically crushing those hopes. The intention is to make them hopeless to the point that when Western Salvation comes to help them and actually delivers results, people will look upon it as ultimate saviors. Either through collision, or through incompetence, the Deep State is party to this. And my suspicion is of collusion.

I agree. Whether through bribery, blackmail or (the best way, for the West) simply convincing them that this is in the country's best interests (no blackmail or bribery needed!), this is the sad state of affairs. I would add that the extreme on both ends are incredibly damaging to society. And in this, I do include those who think that there is only one correct interpretation of our religion when it comes to various controversial issues as well as those who feel threatened by the religion itself. Our society and country has suffered greatly at the hands of both.