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A Formidable Enemy-The ‘good’ Taliban join forces with the ‘bad’ Taliban

No. Your solution is tantamount to abject surrender. Will you "negotiate" in Pakistan?

S2,

Campare apple with apple , War in Afghanistan and Pakistan have different objectives and causes.

Mullah Omer never targeted Pakistan , our war is with TTP and TNSM who are targeting our national assets .

Afghanistan is independent state , US invaded for their own objectives ,Pakistan is only bound to provide logistic suppport due pressure of US,UK and EU, you know very well still majority public is in opposition of this decision of Musharaf Regime.

US should not increase its expectation from our limits ,we have other major regional issues(Kashmir) with our real enemy india which is by the way partner of US in Afghanistan.

If my enemy is your friend ,sorry you are not my friend indeed.

If US wanted to increase the level of support from Pakistan they have to take care of our problems also.:agree:
 
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What is their crime other then to refuse to hand over OBL to US? so we can say their existance is danger for family of nations.

They even didn't refused. Just asked for the evidences and fair trail in any islamic country. Also, when US left no choice for taliban they even told OBL to leave Afghanistan. BUT US just want to attack Afghanistan. & they did, whether there was any reason for it or not.
 
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"Perhaps. And perhaps you'll know more too if your army finally enters areas hitherto unexplored and uncontested in Afghanistan. Two can play at that game.:agree:"

Cute and bit smug. I'm unsure why as you are discussing the efforts taken by other nations in Helmand on behalf of Afghanistan- many who've traveled from very far away in order to help others.

Quetta, OTOH, is part of Pakistan. Sovereign land, ostensibly. What game do you think you are playing with those sovereign responsibilities to yourselves and others? How has it benefited Pakistan to have SECDEF Gates believe, along with many other well-informed policymakers, that the defeated taliban gov't of Afghanistan resides in the Quetta area from where they direct insurgent operations against the duly elected gov't of Afghanistan and forty other nations operating under a U.N. mandate?

Without question, the elevation to exalted status of these losers by your nat'l P.R. machinery glorified them sufficiently to inspire your own local variants over the last seven years...if you haven't noticed.

Some game you're playing.:tsk:

You might be able to track a needle in the haystack. Buyt the technology has proven flaws in tracking living & breathing humans. So this QUETTA AREA govt or SHURA deduction is a another big flaw.
Also I think PAKISTAN should stop all logistic support to NATO & US & tell them to do all themselves , & become neutral. This is not our war
 
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"This is not our war..."

Oh but it very much IS your war.

NATO/ISAF/America could pick up and leave tomorrow and both Afghanistan and Pakistan will remain embroiled in conflict. It became your war the moment Pakistan acquiesced its sovereignty by allowing a defeated foreign taliban army and its government on your soil to infect FATA's tribesmen.

And so they have.

Terrorists don't know "neutral".

Go ahead. Try it. See what it gets you.:rofl:

Still a lot of islamo-fascists around, I see. A lot of those still believing in "strategic depth" too and hoping to keep the Quetta card in play as long as possible.

It was sad enough to see how terribly long it took those here and elsewhere to realize the danger the taliban and their adherents represent. Only after SWAT and Buner did any imperative arise in your society to eject these evil beasts. It makes me even more sad, though, to see the eagerness of some Pakistanis to inflict on others what they won't have for themselves.

You've witnessed the crimes on your own soil. You read the papers and see the news that makes clear that the "good taliban" intentionally target afghan civilians or use them as human shields while disfiguring their daughters with acid. You've seen the data which indicates that the "good" taliban have killed more innocents than even the firepower-rich ISAF forces. Is there some difference in the callous brutality that separates one brand of taliban from the other which I've missed that excuses Pakistan acquiescing to being a taliban launching pad against Afghanistan?

To bring this thread full circle, I don't think it's too much to ask that Pakistan eject these "good" taliban at the first opportunity. I don't ask that it be the first objective. Clearly the Islamic Emirate of Waziristan beckons as a priority. But, if last, eastern Baluchistan also proves to be a certainty.

My lingering fears that the Quetta shura will remain untouched by the P.A. Time will tell the tale and we shall see. I hope that I'm wrong but it'll entail a mindshift in Pakistani security perspectives that appear more deeply-rooted among the populace than I'd imagined. Many here wish to keep the "good" taliban and don't see even now how they have perverted your FATA tribes to create what you have today.

Oh well.
 
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Go ahead. Try it. See what it gets you.

We have already seen 5 yrs of taliban, and 8 yrs of USA.... it clearly shows the difference.. :P
 
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"This is not our war..."

Oh but it very much IS your war.

NATO/ISAF/America could pick up and leave tomorrow and both Afghanistan and Pakistan will remain embroiled in conflict. It became your war the moment Pakistan acquiesced its sovereignty by allowing a defeated foreign taliban army and its government on your soil to infect FATA's tribesmen.

And so they have.

Terrorists don't know "neutral".

Go ahead. Try it. See what it gets you.:rofl:

Still a lot of islamo-fascists around, I see. A lot of those still believing in "strategic depth" too and hoping to keep the Quetta card in play as long as possible.

It was sad enough to see how terribly long it took those here and elsewhere to realize the danger the taliban and their adherents represent. Only after SWAT and Buner did any imperative arise in your society to eject these evil beasts. It makes me even more sad, though, to see the eagerness of some Pakistanis to inflict on others what they won't have for themselves.

You've witnessed the crimes on your own soil. You read the papers and see the news that makes clear that the "good taliban" intentionally target afghan civilians or use them as human shields while disfiguring their daughters with acid. You've seen the data which indicates that the "good" taliban have killed more innocents than even the firepower-rich ISAF forces. Is there some difference in the callous brutality that separates one brand of taliban from the other which I've missed that excuses Pakistan acquiescing to being a taliban launching pad against Afghanistan?

To bring this thread full circle, I don't think it's too much to ask that Pakistan eject these "good" taliban at the first opportunity. I don't ask that it be first objective. Clearly the Islamic Emirate of Waziristan beckons as a priority. But, if last, eastern Baluchistan also proves to be a certainty.

My lingering fears that the Quetta shura will remain untouched by the P.A. remain. Time will tell the tale and we shall see. I hope that I'm wrong but it'll entail a mindshift in Pakistani security perspectives that appear more deeply-rooted among the populace than I'd imagined. Many here wish to keep the "good" taliban and don't see even now how they have perverted your FATA tribes to create what you have today.

Oh well.

What DATA? again your 'intentional' flaws like the IRAQI WMDs.
The biggest crime commited against my NATION has been the NROs sponsored by the so called champions of LIBERTY & JUSTICE. Guess who?
Time will tell the tale and we shall see[/B]
Dont worry we have all the TIME its your watches & gear which you are losing & finding its way in the local markets.
BTW do you have info or DATA on how much your esteemed marine sells his COLT M4 for? Answer: Just a kilo of HASH. So next time anyone of you junkies smoke it, just remember what was the cost ;)
 
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Fundamentalist Reply


Mullah Omer never targeted Pakistan , our war is with TTP and TNSM who are targeting our national assets .

This is the height of hypcrocsy as I see it, but sadly this transends not only on some pakistanie (like Mr. Fundamentalist) , but even the army. Because this beast (Mullah Omar) has never attacked Pakistan makes him into to good taliban, but the consequences of his action is just blind sided.

This should give more fervor to NATO, Afgani establishment, and even India to fight for democracy and stability in the region. And that should be the benchmark of success in the war on terror. No matter how Pakistanie establishment antagonises. There are no such thing as good talibans only dead talibans period.
 
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Its ok for the Afghans to live under the Taliban but not ok for Pakistan? Stop being hypocrtical here, if Pakistan wants to show its regional superiority you ought to take responsibility for getting rid of the Taliban plague everywhere that you see fit and if its within your power help those who can't help themselves. No one should be living under the Taliban no one there is no such thing as a good Taliban.
 
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Go ahead. Try it. See what it gets you.

We have already seen 5 yrs of taliban, and 8 yrs of USA.... it clearly shows the difference.. :P

It's funny that Afganies do not agree with your notion:

Q38. Now I’m going to ask what you think about some people and groups. Is your opinion of …… very favorable, somewhat favorable, somewhat unfavorable, or very unfavorable?
79% afganies put Taliban as very unfavorable

While US and NATO forces:

47% in favorable, that is half of afganie population.

courtesy of S-2 for providing the link: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/shared/bsp/hi/pdfs/05_02_09afghan_poll_2009.pdf
 
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"courtesy of S-2 for providing the link..."

My pleasure. Glad to see you use it to good effect.
 
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I'm unsure why as you are discussing the efforts taken by other nations in Helmand on behalf of Afghanistan...

Perhaps if you'd use your brain and read it in the context of the words I've quoted, you'd figure it out.

I'm unsure why as you are discussing the efforts taken by other nations in Helmand on behalf of Afghanistan- many who've traveled from very far away in order to help others.

Irrelevant. You can boast all about how US/NATO have 'traveled from very far way' to 'help others' but that does change the fact that there is much work to be done in Afghanistan. Whether you like it or not, the US and its allies are responsible for Afghanistan's security as per UN mandate. And many within and out of the US establishment have taken upon themselves to accuse Pakistan for most (if not all) of their setback and failures there, thus my logical point, look to your own sphere of responsibility and jurisdiction before making sweeping and self-righteous appraisals. Instead of trying to dodge that point and looking for strawmen, wouldn’t it have been easier to acknowledge it?

What game do you think you are playing with those sovereign responsibilities to yourselves and others?

Keep the rants on the down-low.

How has it benefited Pakistan to have SECDEF Gates believe, along with many other well-informed policymakers, that the defeated taliban gov't of Afghanistan resides in the Quetta area from where they direct insurgent operations

Doesn’t matter what Gates ‘believes’ as long as his establishment is not able to generate conclusive proof. I could tell you our Interior Minister and DG ISPR believe that India is supporting Mehsud through bases in Afghanistan with tacit approval, but would you believe that? There is no proof that any of your claims about exiled Taliban governments in Quetta is fact, and not self-convenient guess-work being purported to as fact.

Without question, the elevation to exalted status of these losers by your nat'l P.R. machinery glorified them sufficiently…

Barely anymore than what the US did when confronting the Soviet Union was a priority. The tribal insurrectionists have existed long before al-Qaeda was created, and that is the heart of our problem. Avoid vague rants without particular proofs or references in the future.
 
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the defeated taliban gov't of Afghanistan resides in the Quetta area from where they direct insurgent operations against the duly elected gov't of Afghanistan and forty other nations operating under a U.N. mandate?

They are not just in quetta but are also sitting in GHQ Islamabad having the luxury of Russian and Chinese spy satalites to watch your every move in Afghanistan. Better to whack your forces there. more ever they also tend to visit Iran quit oftenly to get the fresh supplies of their wepons in exchange of Heroin.

There has to be a limit of brain-washing
i see no end to BS:tsk:
 
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Fundamentalist, the taliban's current crimes include the gross interference in the U.N. mandated mission to stabilize Afghanistan's current and legitimately elected/recognized government.


Mission to stabalise Afghanistan? Gross interference? I don't believe your stupid enough to believe that crap, the problem with you yanks is that you think everyone else is. America does not stabilise anything but herself and the whole world knows it. The Karzai regime is nothing but a puppet of America,karzai was the U.S's hand picked candidate and the U.S ensured he got into power by employing its usual dirty tricks campaign. The Taliban have every right to resist foreign occupation just as the french resistance had the right to resist the Nazis in world war 2

Besides if your so concerned about free and fair elections I suggest you start writing letters of complaint to your own gov for interfering in the democratic process all over the world most notably south America, do I need to mention Chile, Bolivia,Venezuela, etc etc the list is endless the involvement of the U.S criminal.


Over forty nations participate at the invitation of the Afghan government.


You really expect us to buy this bull?

The taliban TARGET afghan civilians with acid spraying bombings, and shellings.

The Taliban were in power for a number of years,not once did we here any of these horror stories, why do you think that is? Ill tell you why its because they simply aren't true.Just a bunch of lies, in some cases concocted in others black ops carried out by your very own CIA, blackwater, etc in an attempt to reduce the support of the local population for the resistance movement.


Does this matter to you?

Do any of the criems perpetrated by the U.S gov ever matter to you? I think not.

They have killed or wounded more than half of all Afghan civilian casualties in the last year as reported by the U.N-

I don't believe these figures at all, U.S bombing results in far more civilian deaths, the fact remains that any casualties that might occur as a result of Taliban resistance are unavoidable and there would never be any need if it were not for the occupation in the first place.

The U.S occupation is the sole reason for people getting blown up in Afghanistan.



You know what you can do with you BS organisations and your bollo**s figures don't ya? Yes that's right, where the sun doesn't shine.

Are you o.k. with the targeted, intentional killing of civilians to further a political objectives?

No, and that's just your BS that not even the other occupying nations believe.The fact is your all right with the millions killed over the past few years by your country all in the name of democracy and freedom, that doesn't matter one bit to you does it?

Do you believe that disfiguring little schoolgirls accelerates such a message?

Please peddle this rubbish to some gullible fools that might fall for it.The Taliban do not and have never committed any such crimes,the US however do it as a matter of routine.

There is NOTHING redeemable about these men. If they aren't acceptable in Pakistan, they certainly aren't acceptable in Afghanistan.


Don't tell us what is and what isn't acceptable in our lands,just who the hell do you think you are, the policeman of the world or something?
 
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"Perhaps if you'd use your brain and read it in the context of the words I've quoted, you'd figure it out."

You suggest Omar might be in Helmand. So? We suggest he more likely is in Quetta.

Brain used then and now, Mr. Moderator. Thank you.

"Irrelevant. You can boast all about how US/NATO have 'traveled from very far way' to 'help others' but that does change the fact that there is much work to be done in Afghanistan."

Hardly irrelevant. The discussion is about "good" and "bad" taliban. That particular lexicon applies only to Pakistanis. Outside of Pakistan, there are only taliban and they are ALL bad.

This discussion isn't about the efforts of foreign nations to assist Afghanistan. It's about Pakistan and those "good" and "bad" taliban. What happens in Helmand is beyond your control. What happens in Quetta is not. In Quetta, the "good" taliban reside.

"...And many within and out of the US establishment have taken upon themselves to accuse Pakistan for most (if not all) of their setback and failures there..."

Only the U.S., eh? In any case, they'd be inaccurate if doing so. Many of our setbacks and failures can be legitimately attributed to ourselves. We seem to spend a great deal of time, blood, and money, however, to determine what we might do better.

The concern, though, for many is that Pakistan's decision to aborgate it's sovereign responsibilities in the late fall of 2001 and early 2002 helped to create an externally-directed insurgency against Afghanistan. In so doing, this insurgency has dramatically exacerbated the difficulties that Afghanistan would otherwise present to stabilization efforts. Without such, the problem would be greatly diminished in import if a factor at all.

This is a legitimate source of our angst. No doubt. The fountain, even.

"...thus my logical point, look to your own sphere of responsibility and jurisdiction..."

90,000 ISAF troops suggest such is going on. I'm governed by no such obligation and can look to wherever I see problems. Your issues of sovereignty are such.

"...before making sweeping and self-righteous appraisals."

Sweeping it is. It covers much of FATA and eastern Baluchistan with those "good" taliban and associates. How "self-righteous" is in the eye of the beholder. For myself, I accept such a condition now with equanimity.

"...Instead of trying to dodge that point and looking for strawmen, wouldn’t it have been easier to acknowledge it?"

No, Kasrkin. I sense dissemblance here on your part. It is conceivable that Omar, his command leadership, OBL, Zawahiri, Hekmatyar, and Haqqani all reside 24/7/52 weeks a year in Afghanistan. The consensus seems not, however. Nonetheless, we'll be pleased to uncover Omar in some hamlet in Helmand should he be there as we arrive. Unlike you, though, we'll be searching a foreign land for these men.

You'll be searching your own lands...or so they're drawn on maps. Therein lies the fundamental difference between ISAF operations and your own.

We look forward to your eventual entry into Quetta, where much independant reporting seems to affirm Gates' thoughts.

"Keep the rants on the down-low."

What rants? Sovereign aborgation? If so, that's not a rant. It's a very serious issue given the subsequent consequences. Sovereign aborgation is, perhaps, the most serious of all and entirely relevant to any discussion of a "good" taliban.

"Doesn’t matter what Gates ‘believes’ as long as his establishment is not able to generate conclusive proof."

Policy has long been in place and executed on just such an analysis by our government and others.

Of course it matters what the SECDEF of the U.S.A. believes. He has very nonchalantly asserted his belief in the existance of a "Quetta Shura". However, please note that I didn't say "carelessly".

On what basis Gates does so I don't know but there's plenty available in the public domain which has done the same for years. Earlier I left the Elizabeth Rubin piece by the NYT and Peter Bergen's thoughts but they hardly are the sum total. I suspect Gates' sourcing goes a bit deeper though.

"I could tell you our Interior Minister and DG ISPR believe that India is supporting Mehsud through bases in Afghanistan with tacit approval, but would you believe that?"

Irrelevant what I believe about your Interior Minister and DG ISPR on that topic. Your problem is that the SECDEF and many others inside our government and elsewhere assert a "Quetta Shura". So too many independant reporting sources. I've previously used links to such assertions to support my prior posts on this thread.

"There is no proof that any of your claims about exiled Taliban governments in Quetta is fact, and not self-convenient guess-work being purported to as fact."

That's the second time you've referred to "proof". This isn't a rhetorical exercise, Kasrkin. I don't need to prove to you that large elements of this Afghan insurgency find sustenance, support, and sustainment in Pakistan.

There is the assertion of the SECDEF and a long history of anecdotal reporting to this effect. "Google" away, lad. As to guesswork, I think matters extend further-

Mullah Omar "hiding" In Pakistan- BBC 17 January 2007

"Mr Hanif has been highly active over the past year, regularly e-mailing news organisations with the Taleban's version of events in the east of the country.

A man called Qari Mohammad Yousuf has performed similar functions for the Taleban in the south.

The two men were appointed after the capture in Quetta, Pakistan, of former Taleban spokesman Latifullah Hakimi in October 2005.

The Taleban have confirmed Mr Hanif's arrest.

On Wednesday, they named a replacement, Zabihollah Mojahed, the Peshawar-based Afghan Islamic Press reported."


Taliban Haven In Pakistani City Raises Fears- NYT February 9, 2009

"Mullah Rahim, the Taliban’s top commander in Helmand Province, was arrested in Quetta last summer [2008] two weeks after Adm. Mike Mullen, the chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, and a top C.I.A. officer visited Islamabad to confront Pakistani leaders with evidence of ties between the country’s powerful spy service and militants operating in Pakistan’s tribal areas. But an American intelligence official said last week that Mullah Rahim was no longer in custody."

There's a bit more than guesswork and a few more informed souls than simply the SECDEF.

"Barely anymore than what the US did when confronting the Soviet Union was a priority."

We learned our lesson. Have you?

"Avoid vague rants without particular proofs or references in the future."

If men such as Gates, Barnos, McKiernan and many, many others with far greater insight and access are prepared to assert such on a routine basis, so too shall I...and have. Nothing vague there. You've specific names and linked articles as a sampling of a far greater body of work which concurs that Quetta is a VERY likely residence for Omar. That's not ranting.

There are plenty of "vague rants" on this thread.:agree:

Mine aren't among them.

Thanks, Kasrkin.
 
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