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A cultural discussion : Indo-Japanese historical relationship

Aepsilons

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A. Is there a linguistic link ?


For years I have been watching from the sidelines as the opponents battle it out. For the players this fight will go on and on, and the theater of war is right here.

This is a linguistic war, but it naturally involves archaeology, history, religion and a host of wounded egos. The question to be decided is: What exactly are the origins of the Japanese language?

It has generally been accepted by most scholars that Japanese is an Altaic language, derived from a tongue that originated on the steppes of Asia and migrated in various directions, evolving into Turkish, Mongolian and Korean. Structural similarities among these languages seem to support this.

But there was also migration to Japan from the south, through the islands of the Ryukyu chain. Ryukyuan, in its various forms, is the only language closely related to Japanese. The input from Polynesia into Japanese seems to be evident, particularly in the dominance of vowels and the use of the repetitive plural (yamayama for “mountains,” hitobito for “people,” etc.)

But then Susumu Ohno, a renowned linguist and classicist, came along and popularized the theory that Japanese was overwhelmingly influenced by Dravidian languages, particularly Tamil, brought to these shores some 2,000 years ago during the Yayoi Period (500 B.C. to 300 A.D.), when the Japanese began rice-paddy cultivation.

Ohno made his claim for the predominant influence of Tamil on the Japanese vocabulary nearly 30 years ago. (He was not the first to do this, but soon became the theory’s pre-eminent advocate.) As you can imagine, it was roundly attacked by both traditional Japanese linguists and at least one famous Tamil scholar.

Muneo Tokunaga, the latter, denounced Ohno’s ignorance of Tamil in 1981 and wrote, “I find absolutely no scholarly value in the Ohno theory.”

But Susumu Ohno, now 89 years old, has persisted, last year publishing with Iwanami Shoten his book “Nihongo no Genryu wo Motomete (Seeking the Origins of the Japanese Language).” Ohno claims that many common Japanese words come from Tamil. He concentrates on so-called “Yamato kotoba,” or Japanese words that were in use before the introduction of the Chinese writing system. These words, according to Ohno, lend a depth to the emotional culture and the richness of the nonrational sensibility of the Japanese. He states, by quoting relevant cognates, that the following words are originally from Tamil: tanoshii (pleasant); yasashii (gentle); nikoniko (with a smile); tsuya (luster); sabishii (lonely); kanashii (sad); aware (misery); and even the now ubiquitous kawaii (adorable).

That’s a lot of sensibility in anybody’s book.

Ohno further asserts that some Japanese words for colors are borrowed from Tamil. These include the words for red, blue, black and white. Ordinary verbs such as hanasu (talk), iu (say), and sakebu (scream); the words for “thing,” mono and koto; parts of the body such as atama (head), kao (face) and ha (tooth); illnesses such as boke (dementia) — these apparently have similar sounds in Tamil.

Ohno strengthens his argument with comparisons in grammar, pointing to a similar absence of relative pronouns, a likeness in word order and a striking resemblance in the languages’ rhythms.

Now, one can find a host of similarities in totally unrelated languages. This simply attests to the fact that there are only a certain number of sounds that the human being can produce and that syntactic features are bound to overlap.

Russian has neither a definite nor an indefinite article, just like Japanese. This is merely coincidence. And, though I know no Tamil whatsoever, some of Ohno’s examples do appear stretched. I might take the Japanese word for bath, furo, and explain that in ancient times baths were dug into the ground. The English word “furrow” represents this to a T. Again, coincidence. Some of Ohno’s examples are of this variety. For example, he claims that the Japanese dialectal word maru, indicating urination, derives from the Tamil mal, which means the same. The Tamil word for belly button, pot-u, he believes, gave Japanese its heso.

His argument goes further than language.

“The changes brought about by the introduction of rice-paddy cultivation, the use of iron and the loom occurred in the Yayoi Period,” Ohno writes in “Seeking the Origins of the Japanese Language.” By analyzing words associated with these practices, he claims that they were introduced by Tamils who traveled the 7,000-odd kilometers from their home to Japan during the Yayoi Period two millenniums ago.

He brings up various ancient Japanese customs, such as those connected with planting, religious rituals and even nuptial rites. This is where Ohno, an acknowledged expert on Japanese classical literature, is perhaps on the most stable ground. In ancient times, a man courting a woman would visit her home for three days in a row. On the third day, her offering him a rice cake symbolized official recognition of her acceptance. This is referred to in the 11th-century Japanese classic “The Tale of Genji” as mikka no mochi, or “the rice cake on the third day.”

Ohno points to a similar ancient custom that is practiced in regions of India where Dravidian languages are spoken. Again coincidence? Perhaps. Given that there is no way — and there is likely never to be a way — to prove these things, such intriguing coincidence is all one may have to go on.

Words related to religion display similarities in the two languages as well. Kami (god) and agaru (to step up) are two of these. If Ohno is correct, then the popular notion that the kami meaning “god” derives from the kami meaning “above” is wrong.

Ohno does not dispute the influence of Polynesian languages, but places it earlier than that of Tamil. I am not convinced, however, by his thesis that the soft vowels of the Kansai dialect are the result of this South Seas invasion.

One has to admire Susumu Ohno for sticking to his guns. The Tamil-origin theory of Yamato kotoba is not one subscribed to by many scholars. With this book, he has indicated his desire to prove his theory with a feisty insistence.

But, whether Ohno is right or wrong, “the war of the origins” is bound to go on for a long, long time. Linguists love a good fight, and this one is as good as they get. The fact that there may never be an outcome merely adds to the furious excitement and the schadenfreude that experts derive from it.


Was the Japanese language influenced by Tamil? The war goes on | The Japan Times
 
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What's the point of giving so much limelight to extreme fringe theories that have been roundly criticized and rejected in academia? The consensus of linguists is that Japanese is either a language isolate, or a Koreanic (Altaic) language, derived from the language of the ancient Korean Gaya confederacy.
 
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There could be some similar words as there were cultural frequent cultural exchanges through maritime trade however I doubt the authenticity of this report. There are many foreign words of Chinese origin in English language but to say that English is hugely influenced by Chinese language is not true. The articles presents a set of words that the author claims to be originated from Tamil but he fails to prove the link in between them. o_O.There are also grammatical similarities between Sinhalese and Korean but they are not influenced by each other at all. And Tamils also have a history of linking unrelated aspects to them and their culture and exaggerate their position of the world.
 
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What's the point of giving so much limelight to extreme fringe theories that have been roundly criticized and rejected in academia? The consensus of linguists is that Japanese is either a language isolate, or a Koreanic (Altaic) language, derived from the language of the ancient Korean Gaya confederacy.


The Altaic Theory only takes into account the latter waves of Mongolic peoples from Northern Asia and Eastern China. Previously, however, over a millenia that is, the Jomon people had inhabited the Japanese Archipelago. The Jomon people are thought to be descendents of Caucasoid peoples from South Asia, this is supported by the D2 haplotype seen in Japanese men, and D2s are found in South Asian peoples.

There could be some similar words as there were cultural frequent cultural exchanges through maritime trade however I doubt the authenticity of this report. There are many foreign words of Chinese origin in English language but to say that English is hugely influenced by Chinese language is not true. The articles presents a set of words that the author claims to be originated from Tamil but he fails to prove the link in between them. o_O.There are also grammatical similarities between Sinhalese and Korean but they are not influenced by each other at all. And Tamils also have a history of linking unrelated aspects to them and their culture and exaggerate their position of the world.


Interestingly enough, my friend, is that Koreans and Japanese do have D2 haplotype , which is a marker common in South Asiatic peoples. This D2 is not found in Mongols, Turks,, Tungusic peoples, let alone our Han cousins.

Its an interesting concept to ponder about.
 
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@Nihonjin1051

i though you will trying to bring this thread to dwell more on Historical relationship between Indo-Japan, based on some historical meeting between Japan civilization and Indian civilization. Like the cultural exchange of Japanese envoy to some Indian Kingdom and Goa during the Great Sail age until the forming of Azzad India in WW II. And how Japanese perspective toward India, and what India and Japanese know between each other, starting with Curry (i don't like Japanese version of Curry though) and so on.
 
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@Nihonjin1051

i though you will trying to bring this thread to dwell more on Historical relationship between Indo-Japan, based on some historical meeting between Japan civilization and Indian civilization. Like the cultural exchange of Japanese envoy to some Indian Kingdom and Goa during the Great Sail age until the forming of Azzad India in WW II. And how Japanese perspective toward India, and what India and Japanese know between each other, starting with Curry (i don't like Japanese version of Curry though) and so on.


We can cover all these themes in this thread, sister. I would like to make this thread all-encompassing. :)
 
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The Altaic Theory only takes into account the latter waves of Mongolic peoples from Northern Asia and Eastern China. Previously, however, over a millenia that is, the Jomon people had inhabited the Japanese Archipelago. The Jomon people are thought to be descendents of Caucasoid peoples from South Asia, this is supported by the D2 haplotype seen in Japanese men, and D2s are found in South Asian peoples.
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1. There is no D Haplogroup in South Asia unless you consider the Andaman Islands. Furthermore, if you insist D haplogroups spread through migration, you can't explain its absence in China, Korea, or Southeast Asia, all necessary routes from South Asia to Japan. On the evidence, its untenable that the subclades of D Haplogroup are linked to each other.
2. You wouldn't get 'Caucasoid' phenotypes from Tamils. In South Asia, the Caucasoid phenotype is most prominent in Pakistan and North India, where people mostly descend from Ayran conquerors, although Bengalis and Sinhalese also have notable Indo-Aryan ancestry. In contrast, there's nothing Caucasoid about the Dravidian Tamils, who have a coal-black complexion darker than sub-Saharan Africans. So that's not an acceptable theory for explaining the Caucasoid appearance of the Jomon people.
 
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(i don't like Japanese version of Curry though)


What? It is a staple in the JMSDF, you know! lol.


11054787_895982733796779_5222372672764174838_n.jpg


;)

JMSDF-Approved !

10440730_877597108968675_2540735485789568305_n.jpg
 
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@Nihonjin1051

This is great news for us in Pakistan. Can you please tell this to the Indian Tamil's. They are all swamping Pakistan heritage by claiming everything from Indus Basin/Pakistan and this might turn their attention on Japan.

After they start claming Samurai, Sushi, Suzuki as Tamil we might get a break .......
 
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@Nihonjin1051

This is great news for us in Pakistan. Can you please tell this to the Indian Tamil's. They are all swamping Pakistan heritage by claiming everything from Indus Basin/Pakistan and this might turn their attention on Japan.

After they start claming Samurai, Sushi, Suzuki as Tamil we might get a break .......


ha ha ha, i never knew there was such contention between Indian Tamils with Pakistanis!
 
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@Nihonjin1051

This is great news for us in Pakistan. Can you please tell this to the Indian Tamil's. They are all swamping Pakistan heritage by claiming everything from Indus Basin/Pakistan and this might turn their attention on Japan.

After they start claming Samurai, Sushi, Suzuki as Tamil we might get a break .......
Why wouldn't they claim IVC ?

It is their right.

Indian Tamils are Indian..and by that they get rights to claim every heritage from every part of India - whether its IVC in North West India or the heritage of brilliant music of Ravindra Nath Tagore from East India.

The same way I as a North West Indian feel great pride in my heritage of Southern India and the absolute treasure trove of thousands of years of Tamil literature!
 
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ha ha ha, i never knew there was such contention between Indian Tamils with Pakistanis!
Not just Pakistanis. They want to claim the entire Sri Lankan history too and Sanskrit language which is an Indo-European language. They also pour a lot of money for propaganda campaigns. Don't be surprised if they ask for Japan to turn into a Tamil kingdom. :lol:
 
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starting with Curry


Some more of our boys gobbling up this lamb curry dish !

1466116_641628942565494_803704984_n.jpg


;)

Not just Pakistanis. They want to claim the entire Sri Lankan history too and Sanskrit language which is an Indo-European language. They also pour a lot of money for propaganda campaigns. Don't be surprised if they ask for Japan to turn into a Tamil kingdom. :lol:

Well i never knew about that, Azizam ! Perhaps its because of the location? Well has there been close contacts between Tamil and Sinhala people over the thousands of years?
 
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ha ha ha, i never knew there was such contention between Indian Tamils with Pakistanis!

There is and given this thread the irony being it is also based on linguistic claims. In Pakistan province of Balochistan ( similar to your prefecture ) there is a tiny population of Brahui speakers near the Iranian/Afghan border. These Brahui speaker to the eye look exactly like the Baloch ( a Eastern Iranian people who give name to the province ) and linguists have concluded that their language has Dravidian links which of course is spoken 1,300 miles away in South india.

This link has been the basis of claims that all of Indus Basin/Pakistan was in the past peopled by Dravidians who built the Indus Valley Civilization with sites like Harappa and Mohenjo daro in Pakistan. These were earliest places of human civilization contemperanous with Egypt, Mesopotamia and Yellow river, China.

Thus the Dravidian claim on all of Pakistan's ancient heritage. The argument the Tamil make is that all of Indus Basin/Pakistan was Dravidian lands and then came along Aryan savages ( us ) and pushed and displaced the Dravids deep into present day India. Of course no ethnic cleansing is 100% and some became subsumed into the invaders ( that being the present mixed Pak population ) and those Brahui in Balochistan are the left overs of the past.

Of course there is another theory. Bunch of Dravidians moved west into Pakistan and settled in Balochistan. Being in small number they mixed with local Baloch thus ended up looking like Baloch but retained their much evolved language, the Brahui they speak today. Of course I have simplfied it but this is source of the claims and results in protracted arguments because of course we regard IVC as the work of our ancestors. This is source of so much friction between Indian ( Tamil ) and Pakistani's. In fact Wikipedia is subjected to much distortion but I give links anyway.

Harappa - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Mohenjo-daro - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Brahui language - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

*Apology for going of topic but I thought I would explain.
 
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There is and given this thread the irony being it is also based on linguistic claims. In Pakistan province of Balochistan ( similar to your prefecture ) there is a tiny population of Brahui speakers near the Iranian/Afghan border. These Brahui speaker to the eye look exactly like the Baloch ( a Eastern Iranian people who give name to the province ) and linguists have concluded that their language has Dravidian links which of course is spoken 1,300 miles away in South india.

This link has been the basis of claims that all of Indus Basin/Pakistan was in the past peopled by Dravidians who built the Indus Valley Civilization with sites like Harappa and Mohenjo daro in Pakistan. These were earliest places of human civilization comtemperanous with Egypt, Mesopotamia and Yellow river, China.

Thus the Dravidian claim on all of Pakistan's ancient heritage. The argument the Tamil make is that all of Indus Basin/Pakistan was Dravidian lands and then came along Aryan savages ( us ) and pushed and displaced the Dravids deep into present day India. Of course no ethnic cleansing is 100% and some became subsumed into the invaders ( that being the present mixed Pak population ) and those Brahui in Balochistan are the left overs of the past.

Of course there is another theory. Bunch of Dravidians moved west into Pakistan and settled in Balochistan. Being in small number they mixed with local Baloch thus ended up looking like Baloch but retained their much evolved language, the Brahui they speak today. Of course I have simplfied it but this is source of the claims and results in protracted arguments because of course we regard IVC as the work of our ancestors. This is source of so much friction between Indian ( Tamil ) and Pakistani's. In fact Wikipedia is subjected to much distortion but I give links anyway.

Harappa - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Mohenjo-daro - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Brahui language - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

*Apology for going of topic but I thought I would explain.


Excellent information, @Atanz , i never knew about this until now. Fascinating.
 
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