90% of the 1,000 year Muslim nobility of subcontinent went to Pakistan

[itsanufy]

Shouldn't Pakistan have developed faster? A serious injection of High IQ Human Capital and good genetics...These were the same lineages that managed to keep 80% Hindu North India under their dominance for well over 500 years (From second Battle of Tarain to Death of Aurangzeb)...which proved their continued High IQ as well strategic martial and empire building capabilities...Nobody is saying Pakistan should have been Like Japan,Korea,Taiwan etc... but it should have been at least Thailand or Brazil level now in terms of economic level...What gives?

and Muslim nobility that ventured into Pakistan and India were more highly capable than the Muslim nobility that stayed back in Afghanistan and Central Asia...In the same vein as white Europeans who conquered North America were more capable than White Europeans who stayed back in Europe...even now White Americans build up huge companies like HP,Lockheed Martin,Microsoft etc...Europe is nowhere...okay Germans are good in cars, but a part of the reason is because the best german engineers go into the auto industry instead of the defence industry (which is the norm in most powerful countries)....In USA the best engineers go into defence and aerospace, while the next grade of engineers go to the automotive sector...which is why American cars may be considered slightly, ever so slightly inferior to the German ones

American scientific revolution started by ex Germans.
There is something I would life cycle, think Greeks, Romans and even British. Every civilization/race has its expiry dates. New races comes to replace it.
Another observation, same to Bengal renaissance Hindus adopted western education much more faster than the Muslims.

 

[Adonis]

Shouldn't Pakistan have developed faster? A serious injection of High IQ Human Capital and good genetics...These were the same lineages that managed to keep 80% Hindu North India under their dominance for well over 500 years (From second Battle of Tarain to Death of Aurangzeb)...which proved their continued High IQ as well strategic martial and empire building capabilities...Nobody is saying Pakistan should have been Like Japan,Korea,Taiwan etc... but it should have been at least Thailand or Brazil level now in terms of economic level...What gives?

and Muslim nobility that ventured into Pakistan and India were more highly capable than the Muslim nobility that stayed back in Afghanistan and Central Asia...In the same vein as white Europeans who conquered North America were more capable than White Europeans who stayed back in Europe...even now White Americans build up huge companies like HP,Lockheed Martin,Microsoft etc...Europe is nowhere...okay Germans are good in cars, but a part of the reason is because the best german engineers go into the auto industry instead of the defence industry (which is the norm in most powerful countries)....In USA the best engineers go into defence and aerospace, while the next grade of engineers go to the automotive sector...which is why American cars may be considered slightly, ever so slightly inferior to the German ones

Another obsession prone thoughts filled with Muslims superiority complex.
On highlighted part, If dominating other race/sects/religion is symbol of "High IQ as well strategic martial and empire building capabilities" then admit...West has far high IQ than Muslims as we are being beaten/humiliated for centuries now.
Foremost is, we Muslims (whole of Muslim world) have never endorsed western education/science tech (please, don't want to listen bragging of 'once upon a time in Spain,we were blah blah' - I am talking of modern science, post Renaissance)....there are very few Muslim personalities in the field of innovation/discovery/scientific achievement....so irrespective of how many nobles went where, they were irrelevant from science/tech perspective and thus we cannot comprehend if Pakistan would have developed faster.

 

[The Accountant]

Shouldn't Pakistan have developed faster? A serious injection of High IQ Human Capital and good genetics...These were the same lineages that managed to keep 80% Hindu North India under their dominance for well over 500 years (From second Battle of Tarain to Death of Aurangzeb)...which proved their continued High IQ as well strategic martial and empire building capabilities...Nobody is saying Pakistan should have been Like Japan,Korea,Taiwan etc... but it should have been at least Thailand or Brazil level now in terms of economic level...What gives?

and Muslim nobility that ventured into Pakistan and India were more highly capable than the Muslim nobility that stayed back in Afghanistan and Central Asia...In the same vein as white Europeans who conquered North America were more capable than White Europeans who stayed back in Europe...even now White Americans build up huge companies like HP,Lockheed Martin,Microsoft etc...Europe is nowhere...okay Germans are good in cars, but a part of the reason is because the best german engineers go into the auto industry instead of the defence industry (which is the norm in most powerful countries)....In USA the best engineers go into defence and aerospace, while the next grade of engineers go to the automotive sector...which is why American cars may be considered slightly, ever so slightly inferior to the German ones

First of all read history ... Pakistan did remarkable well till mid-80s a small country having so much power that it not only took USSR head on but was one of the main factor in the destruction of USSR ... Economically we were also much better than India and rest of the sub-continent ...

The actual issue is not the muslim heritage but the colonisim of British empire ... Britishers allocated land to the traitors of the nation and they became influential person known as Zimendar ... However, those zimendar were somewhat powerless and establishment and bureaucracy was running the show till 60s but bhutto and Mujeeb turned the table and shifted the power from Bureaucracy to these people ... The actual effect took sometime but by mid 80s we saw a complete hijack of PPP and PML by these vederas, zemedar and landlords which actually became zimendar as a result of treachery with the nation ...

Good that India did land reforms at very start and reduced the power of those traitors but we are still undecisive on that front as majority of lawmakers in parliament belong to same traitor families ... Same is with the generals ... Although our armed forces are really devoted most of the times general at the top are beneficiary of the status quo and hence no real action against those land lords that are helding us back ..

Another aspect is the biggest muslim cultural and power hubs are still not in Pakistan ... Where was Aligarh University ? Where is Dehli? Where is Hyderabad?

Alot of intellectual power hub ofthe muslim community were held back in India as they were in middle of India and it was not feasible to allocate them to Pakistan ... But with what we had in 47 we did well ... take out the corruption and war period from 85 to 2018 still we are a proud nation ... The only nation that succeed in war against terrorisim ...

Look at you , you are not able to tackle Kashmir despite of having armed forces in Kashmir that are equivalentent to total armed forces of Pakistan in since past 70 years and you are still unable to control the situation ... On the contrary we not only won but also we were fighting with intelligence of several countries inclusing but not limited to India, Israel, Iran, USA, KSA and Afghanistan ... Thos are beside terrorists ...

 

[Jackdaws]

90% migrated? Where did you pull that number from?

 

[Joe Shearer]

90% migrated? Where did you pull that number from?

You want him to say on a public forum?????

What's wrong with you?

People develop in every sphere when they believe in the cause more importantly they feel ownership. There were two main coups by the British, they pacified and anglicized the nobility but more importantly they took sense of ownership from the populace, peasants became benefactors of the state.
Hence, if the state gave them something, hail the state... either way if you are afflicted with something and wait for the state to intervene your mind is already sitting on a couch looking for a handout. States love that... especially who rule through proxy. It keeps demands in check and politicians feeding on it...

When people will learn to keep their surroundings and environment as clean as their homes that is when mindset will change to that of ownership instead of a benevolent/benefactor state. That when you can achieve something after starting from scratch and finish.

Till than keep looking at swedish model or chinese or everything in between.

If you'll accept Younger Wisdom, that would be, ".....peasants became beneficiaries of the state....."

 

[Beskar]

Shouldn't Pakistan have developed faster? A serious injection of High IQ Human Capital and good genetics...

The problem with ROYAL bloodlines & lineage is that nobody wants to work as everyone tends to live the Royal lifestyle aka lazy and prestigious, even if struggling with poverty! This is quite prevalent in my city of Lahore where even lower level workers/laborers would refuse to work if there are differences with their employers because "Rozi sirf Allah kai haath mein hai, dekhi jaye gi shah jee"

 

[Joe Shearer]

First of all read history ... Pakistan did remarkable well till mid-80s a small country having so much power that it not only took USSR head on but was one of the main factor in the destruction of USSR ... Economically we were also much better than India and rest of the sub-continent ...

The actual issue is not the muslim heritage but the colonisim of British empire ... Britishers allocated land to the traitors of the nation and they became influential person known as Zimendar ... However, those zimendar were somewhat powerless and establishment and bureaucracy was running the show till 60s but bhutto and Mujeeb turned the table and shifted the power from Bureaucracy to these people ... The actual effect took sometime but by mid 80s we saw a complete hijack of PPP and PML by these vederas, zemedar and landlords which actually became zimendar as a result of treachery with the nation ...

Good that India did land reforms at very start and reduced the power of those traitors but we are still undecisive on that front as majority of lawmakers in parliament belong to same traitor families ... Same is with the generals ... Although our armed forces are really devoted most of the times general at the top are beneficiary of the status quo and hence no real action against those land lords that are helding us back ..

Another aspect is the biggest muslim cultural and power hubs are still not in Pakistan ... Where was Aligarh University ? Where is Dehli? Where is Hyderabad?

Alot of intellectual power hub ofthe muslim community were held back in India as they were in middle of India and it was not feasible to allocate them to Pakistan ... But with what we had in 47 we did well ... take out the corruption and war period from 85 to 2018 still we are a proud nation ... The only nation that succeed in war against terrorisim ...

Look at you , you are not able to tackle Kashmir despite of having armed forces in Kashmir that are equivalentent to total armed forces of Pakistan in since past 70 years and you are still unable to control the situation ... On the contrary we not only won but also we were fighting with intelligence of several countries inclusing but not limited to India, Israel, Iran, USA, KSA and Afghanistan ... Thos are beside terrorists ...

@Signalian
@Gryphon

You really need to do something about remarks like this. If normal methods don't work, have you thought of trying a hammer and nails?

 

[Talwar e Pakistan]

I dont know where you got 1000 years rule, thats pure nonsense. It may be somewhat true for sindh but not entire subcontinent.

Only turks,persians (including iraq) had some very good kings who were progressive and had prosperous kingdoms. Most of them were nomads who were raiders , they were mostly interested in looting & devastation. Occasionally ppl whoever left behind to manage showed some interest in development which was not in entirety but in bits & pieces.

For example you can think of countries having oil based economy. What have they done with it? compete with germans or americans technologically? nope used it garner more power and put down ppl.

Sindh became independent for most of it's existent after the initial invasion. Foreign Muslim dynasties had more grip on North India than they did on the Indus Region.

 

[The Accountant]

What do you mean ?

@Signalian
@Gryphon

You really need to do something about remarks like this. If normal methods don't work, have you thought of trying a hammer and nails?

 

[Joe Shearer]

What do you mean ?

https://defence.pk/pdf/threads/retaking-kashmir-after-70-years.603628/page-6

 

[Hamza913]

Shouldn't Pakistan have developed faster?

Well, Pakistanis do have higher IQ's (on average) than our eastern neighbour. And for most of our history, we have been better than India in terms of development.

90% migrated? Where did you pull that number from?

90% is a bit much but Pakistan does have plenty of Ashrafs, certainly more than India's Muslim community does.

There's also the fact that during partition, a lot of the Muslim aristocrats migrated to Pakistan. That's one of the reasons why Muslims in India are so poor compared to other communities.

 

[Juggernaut_Flat_Plane_V8]

Yes people moved but what about resources???? India kept every thing.

Pakistan's first government offices were in Pop-up Tent , there were no papers to write on. Pakistan has made great strives to reach where it is today.

In mere 70 years Pakistan is a nuclear power. We had only one university in whole of Pakistan today over 300 universities, a country without proper army at independence is now selling aircraft's and guns.

So it depends on how you look at things. Pakistan is stronger than ever. We have learned from our mistakes. Its funny how people talk about Pakistan's economy and makes fun of it, without realizing that up until 1990's Pakistan was much ahead of India. This too shall pas, we are on right track and we have great leadership Alhamdulillah. We dont expect over night miracles.

High IQ people with little resources can create heaven--Whites in Africa
Low IQ people with a lot of resources donot create heaven----Aborigines,Blacks etc

Well, Pakistanis do have higher IQ's (on average) than our eastern neighbour. And for most of our history, we have been better than India in terms of development.



90% is a bit much but Pakistan does have plenty of Ashrafs, certainly more than India's Muslim community does.

There's also the fact that during partition, a lot of the Muslim aristocrats migrated to Pakistan. That's one of the reasons why Muslims in India are so poor compared to other communities.

You took the creme de la creme of the Muslim population which helped construct arguably the finest series of Islamic empires ever seen...and still your benchmark is a laggard India, which Pakistanis themselves see as a pathetic mess?....should not your benchmark be at least 5000 dollars of GDP per capita within 50 years of Independence?

 

[Hamza913]

You took the creme de la creme of the Muslim population which helped construct arguably the finest series of Islamic empires ever seen...

Times have changed.

Look at the Gulf countries. Without all their oil, they'd be screwed, even though they too have produced many empires.

 

[OldenWisdom...قول بزرگ]

You want him to say on a public forum?????

What's wrong with you?



If you'll accept Younger Wisdom, that would be, ".....peasants became beneficiaries of the state....."

Thank you for the correction.

 

[The Accountant]

https://defence.pk/pdf/threads/retaking-kashmir-after-70-years.603628/page-6

I am simply answering the question raised by an indian on achievments of Pakistan ... the intent was to highlight that Pakistan fought well in war on terror but on the same side India is fighting in Kashmir since past 70 years but with little to no success ... the intention was not to highlight india's failure but to highlight Pakistan's ckmparative achievement ... in any case reality will remain relaity you like it or not ...