90% of the 1,000 year Muslim nobility of subcontinent went to Pakistan

[Juggernaut_Flat_Plane_V8]

Shouldn't Pakistan have developed faster? A serious injection of High IQ Human Capital and good genetics...These were the same lineages that managed to keep 80% Hindu North India under their dominance for well over 500 years (From second Battle of Tarain to Death of Aurangzeb)...which proved their continued High IQ as well strategic martial and empire building capabilities...Nobody is saying Pakistan should have been Like Japan,Korea,Taiwan etc... but it should have been at least Thailand or Brazil level now in terms of economic level...What gives?

and Muslim nobility that ventured into Pakistan and India were more highly capable than the Muslim nobility that stayed back in Afghanistan and Central Asia...In the same vein as white Europeans who conquered North America were more capable than White Europeans who stayed back in Europe...even now White Americans build up huge companies like HP,Lockheed Martin,Microsoft etc...Europe is nowhere...okay Germans are good in cars, but a part of the reason is because the best german engineers go into the auto industry instead of the defence industry (which is the norm in most powerful countries)....In USA the best engineers go into defence and aerospace, while the next grade of engineers go to the automotive sector...which is why American cars may be considered slightly, ever so slightly inferior to the German ones

 

[Foxtrot Delta]

I won't say 90% it was some where around 60%
if we don't count bangladesh

 

[Whirling_dervesh]

Any stats to back that up?

 

[Juggernaut_Flat_Plane_V8]

Any stats to back that up?

Northern half of present day India was the fiefdom of Muslim nobility for 500 years....there is hardly any Muslim upper middle class or upper class anymore in India...where did they all go? certainly not to Bangladesh, where every body speaks Bangla and Muslim nobility of India detested such Indo-Aryan languages ...at best they tolerated Urdu which has as many Persian words as Indo-Aryan

If 90 percent Muslim nobility didnot go to Pakistan, then that means only that they were genocided by Sikhs and Marathas----which doesnot seem to be the case

 

[Itachi]

Shouldn't Pakistan have developed faster? A serious injection of High IQ Human Capital and good genetics...These were the same lineages that managed to keep 80% Hindu North India under their dominance for well over 500 years (From second Battle of Tarain to Death of Aurangzeb)...which proved their continued High IQ as well strategic martial and empire building capabilities...Nobody is saying Pakistan should have been Like Japan,Korea,Taiwan etc... but it should have been at least Thailand or Brazil level now in terms of economic level...What gives?

and Muslim nobility that ventured into Pakistan and India were more highly capable than the Muslim nobility that stayed back in Afghanistan and Central Asia...In the same vein as white Europeans who conquered North America were more capable than White Europeans who stayed back in Europe...even now White Americans build up huge companies like HP,Lockheed Martin,Microsoft etc...Europe is nowhere...okay Germans are good in cars, but a part of the reason is because the best german engineers go into the auto industry instead of the defence industry (which is the norm in most powerful countries)....In USA the best engineers go into defence and aerospace, while the next grade of engineers go to the automotive sector...which is why American cars may be considered slightly, ever so slightly inferior to the German ones

Simple answer. Dilution & lack of objectives & long term goals.

After conquering India the Mughals didn't try to convert the majority to Islam. They merely hung onto the empire they held. Plus, conquering others doesn't suggest a "higher IQ". You're just better at mobilising your forces than others & able to command them.

The hard part is "managing" those forces and the end result for a ever lasting legacy. Look the the British East India company. Started with less than 1k men and eventually after a whole century went to 10k men and conquered the whole of India and managed to conquer more land then ever had been conquered.

Not only that, their bigger mark can be seen in the political, education & administrative domains. We still follow the education system built by them, more than not, we also follow the same government systems etc etc.

And the English did this with a lot less manpower....the only thing they didn't do is convert the population to Christianity, they tried but didn't put much effort into it.

The end result can be seen today along with the rising tide of secularism & atheism in India. Obviously there is a push back from the religious nuts but that can't last for long. The future India will be more secular & atheist like the West in my opinion.

Going back to dilution...many of the princes married into the local population so you can say that the genes got mixed a lot. Look at the picture of the last Mughal....he hardly looks Persian or Central Asian.

The last Mughal Emperor on his deathbed:

His sons:

The one on the right looks like an idiot.

 

[jetray]

Shouldn't Pakistan have developed faster? A serious injection of High IQ Human Capital and good genetics...These were the same lineages that managed to keep 80% Hindu North India under their dominance for well over 500 years (From second Battle of Tarain to Death of Aurangzeb)...which proved their continued High IQ as well strategic martial and empire building capabilities...Nobody is saying Pakistan should have been Like Japan,Korea,Taiwan etc... but it should have been at least Thailand or Brazil level now in terms of economic level...What gives?

and Muslim nobility that ventured into Pakistan and India were more highly capable than the Muslim nobility that stayed back in Afghanistan and Central Asia...In the same vein as white Europeans who conquered North America were more capable than White Europeans who stayed back in Europe...even now White Americans build up huge companies like HP,Lockheed Martin,Microsoft etc...Europe is nowhere...okay Germans are good in cars, but a part of the reason is because the best german engineers go into the auto industry instead of the defence industry (which is the norm in most powerful countries)....In USA the best engineers go into defence and aerospace, while the next grade of engineers go to the automotive sector...which is why American cars may be considered slightly, ever so slightly inferior to the German ones

I dont know where you got 1000 years rule, thats pure nonsense. It may be somewhat true for sindh but not entire subcontinent.

Only turks,persians (including iraq) had some very good kings who were progressive and had prosperous kingdoms. Most of them were nomads who were raiders , they were mostly interested in looting & devastation. Occasionally ppl whoever left behind to manage showed some interest in development which was not in entirety but in bits & pieces.

For example you can think of countries having oil based economy. What have they done with it? compete with germans or americans technologically? nope used it garner more power and put down ppl.

 

[MultaniGuy]

Shouldn't Pakistan have developed faster? A serious injection of High IQ Human Capital and good genetics...These were the same lineages that managed to keep 80% Hindu North India under their dominance for well over 500 years (From second Battle of Tarain to Death of Aurangzeb)...which proved their continued High IQ as well strategic martial and empire building capabilities...Nobody is saying Pakistan should have been Like Japan,Korea,Taiwan etc... but it should have been at least Thailand or Brazil level now in terms of economic level...What gives?

and Muslim nobility that ventured into Pakistan and India were more highly capable than the Muslim nobility that stayed back in Afghanistan and Central Asia...In the same vein as white Europeans who conquered North America were more capable than White Europeans who stayed back in Europe...even now White Americans build up huge companies like HP,Lockheed Martin,Microsoft etc...Europe is nowhere...okay Germans are good in cars, but a part of the reason is because the best german engineers go into the auto industry instead of the defence industry (which is the norm in most powerful countries)....In USA the best engineers go into defence and aerospace, while the next grade of engineers go to the automotive sector...which is why American cars may be considered slightly, ever so slightly inferior to the German ones

Well Pakistan got it's independence in 1947.

While Japan industrialized it's country in the late 1860s.

Thats a huge difference.

Now it is coming to Pakistan now.

Simple answer. Dilution & lack of objectives & long term goals.

After conquering India the Mughals didn't try to convert the majority to Islam. They merely hung onto the empire they held. Plus, conquering others doesn't suggest a "higher IQ". You're just better at mobilising your forces than others & able to command them.

The hard part is "managing" those forces and the end result for a ever lasting legacy. Look the the British East India company. Started with less than 1k men and eventually after a whole century went to 10k men and conquered the whole of India and managed to conquer more land then ever had been conquered.

Not only that, their bigger mark can be seen in the political, education & administrative domains. We still follow the education system built by them, more than not, we also follow the same government systems etc etc.

And the English did this with a lot less manpower....the only thing they didn't do is convert the population to Christianity, they tried but didn't put much effort into it.

The end result can be seen today along with the rising tide of secularism & atheism in India. Obviously there is a push back from the religious nuts but that can't last for long. The future India will be more secular & atheist like the West in my opinion.

Going back to dilution...many of the princes married into the local population so you can say that the genes got mixed a lot. Look at the picture of the last Mughal....he hardly looks Persian or Central Asian.

The last Mughal Emperor on his deathbed:

His sons:

The one on the right looks like an idiot.

Unfair to call anyone an idiot without knowing them personally.

 

[Itachi]

Unfair to call anyone an idiot without knowing them personally.

Read up on the history of these guys and you'll call them even worse. They sold India to the Brits literally...

 

[Juggernaut_Flat_Plane_V8]

Simple answer. Dilution & lack of objectives & long term goals.

After conquering India the Mughals didn't try to convert the majority to Islam. They merely hung onto the empire they held. Plus, conquering others doesn't suggest a "higher IQ". You're just better at mobilising your forces than others & able to command them.

The hard part is "managing" those forces and the end result for a ever lasting legacy. Look the the British East India company. Started with less than 1k men and eventually after a whole century went to 10k men and conquered the whole of India and managed to conquer more land then ever had been conquered.

Not only that, their bigger mark can be seen in the political, education & administrative domains. We still follow the education system built by them, more than not, we also follow the same government systems etc etc.

And the English did this with a lot less manpower....the only thing they didn't do is convert the population to Christianity, they tried but didn't put much effort into it.

The end result can be seen today along with the rising tide of secularism & atheism in India. Obviously there is a push back from the religious nuts but that can't last for long. The future India will be more secular & atheist like the West in my opinion.

Going back to dilution...many of the princes married into the local population so you can say that the genes got mixed a lot. Look at the picture of the last Mughal....he hardly looks Persian or Central Asian.

The last Mughal Emperor on his deathbed:

His sons:

The one on the right looks like an idiot.

early photography punished the aesthetics of anything other than pearl white skin..The problem exists to some extent even to this day...I am sure the Mughal nobility looked way better in person than in rudimentary photos...but yes they progressively started looking more Indo Aryan as they started marrying Indian women more than Persian noble women or Turkic nomadic princesses

But the prince on the left is legitimately decent looking

I would argue that conquering is a function of high IQ+high testosterone...this is why eventhough blacks are heavyweight champions in boxing or mma, they have never been able to nor will ever be able to conquer any caucasoid nation

 

[OldenWisdom...قول بزرگ]

People develop in every sphere when they believe in the cause more importantly they feel ownership. There were two main coups by the British, they pacified and anglicized the nobility but more importantly they took sense of ownership from the populace, peasants became beneficiaries of the state.
Hence, if the state gave them something, hail the state... either way if you are afflicted with something and wait for the state to intervene your mind is already sitting on a couch looking for a handout. States love that... especially who rule through proxy. It keeps demands in check and politicians feeding on it...

When people will learn to keep their surroundings and environment as clean as their homes that is when mindset will change to that of ownership instead of a benevolent/benefactor state. That when you can achieve something after starting from scratch and finish.

Till than keep looking at swedish model or chinese or everything in between.

 

[Juggernaut_Flat_Plane_V8]

I dont know where you got 1000 years rule, thats pure nonsense. It may be somewhat true for sindh but not entire subcontinent.

Only turks,persians (including iraq) had some very good kings who were progressive and had prosperous kingdoms. Most of them were nomads who were raiders , they were mostly interested in looting & devastation. Occasionally ppl whoever left behind to manage showed some interest in development which was not in entirety but in bits & pieces.

For example you can think of countries having oil based economy. What have they done with it? compete with germans or americans technologically? nope used it garner more power and put down ppl.

more like 500 years for proper Northern India (1192 to 1707)----515 years

 

[Chakar The Great]

Yes people moved but what about resources???? India kept every thing.

Pakistan's first government offices were in Pop-up Tent , there were no papers to write on. Pakistan has made great strives to reach where it is today.

In mere 70 years Pakistan is a nuclear power. We had only one university in whole of Pakistan today over 300 universities, a country without proper army at independence is now selling aircraft's and guns.

So it depends on how you look at things. Pakistan is stronger than ever. We have learned from our mistakes. Its funny how people talk about Pakistan's economy and makes fun of it, without realizing that up until 1990's Pakistan was much ahead of India. This too shall pas, we are on right track and we have great leadership Alhamdulillah. We dont expect over night miracles.

 

[MultaniGuy]

Yes people moved but what about resources???? India kept every thing.

Pakistan's first government offices were in Pop-up Tent , there were no papers to write on. Pakistan has made great strives to reach where it is today.

In mere 70 years Pakistan is a nuclear power. We had only one university in whole of Pakistan today over 300 universities, a country without proper army at independence is now selling aircraft's and guns.

So it depends on how you look at things. Pakistan is stronger than ever. We have learned from our mistakes. Its funny how people talk about Pakistan's economy and makes fun of it, without realizing that up until 1990's Pakistan was much ahead of India. This too shall pas, we are on right track and we have great leadership Alhamdulillah. We dont expect over night miracles.

Exactly Pakistan in 1947 was a country that had to be built from scratch.

While Republic of India inherited most of the British Institutions in South Asia.

 

[xyxmt]

We did develop much faster than India for first 30 years than that nobility passed away leaving behind less nobles. Pakistan had nothing in 47 and most observer believe this country wont last few years but that nobility proved everyone wrong.

 

[Darth Vader]

Few things while if you look at the history beside few cities there wasnt much in whats currently called Pakistan

And if you look at end of british raj in india , there werent that many corporations developing or building

Regards to IQ just because someone is nobility that doesnt make them highly intelligent and history showed that.

Much of india still followed the local kingdoms with its own kings till india ended that

Pakistan was one of the biggest economy till 70s and thanks to bhutto that was ruined

And you have to understand one thing unlike other countries
Japan , china , korea they had seen different phases of progress while Pakistan is still a new born child when you compare to other countries where every thing was built from scratch unlike others where it had to be rebuilt
Rebuilding is easy , people know how it was done on 1st place

And if you look past 60 years 3 major wars
Part got seperated , more than decade of wot , lost 100K people and even after that tell me which country in human history survived and still kept developing itself