530km Zhengzhou-Wuhan HSR opens on 28.09.2012

[chauism]

page issue

 

[Korean]

You just have to spin everything the news says do you.
The rule for the bidder is "at least 10 years experience in the activity" which China does not meet.

No, 10 years of fatality free operations. You could have been in the HSR business for 100 years and if someone died from an accident while riding your train 9 years ago, you are disqualified.

This does not only apply to China but also to other countries like ROK which its Korea Train Express only start its service on April 1, 2004.

Well, not only Korean bidders are qualified, but they are the leading bidder.

Investors keen to ride Brazil bullet train - FT.com

Investors keen to ride Brazil bullet train
By Joe Leahy in São Paulo

A Brazilian plan for a “bullet train” linking Rio de Janeiro and São Paulo is attracting strong foreign interest, despite heavy criticism and three failed attempts to pull in investors.
Public submissions for the first phase of the project, whose total value a government report estimates at R$35bn ($17.3bn), close on Monday with a tender document to be released next month.

Hearings on the proposal last week were attended by South Korea’s Hyundai and Japan’s Mitsui, said the Brazilian business newspaper Valor Econômico. It also reported that 19 international and local railway groups were preparing consortia, from France’s SNCF to Spain’s Renfe.

The "reference" bidders are Hyundai and Mitsui, with whom the Brazilian authorities are consulting to lay out the requirements and the rules of bidding.

In fact, I first heard about Brazilian authorities banning Chinese bidders from a Japanese site before it went public, so Japan had something to do with drafting a rule that banned Chinese bidders.

 

[chauism]

No, 10 years of fatality free operations. You could have been in the HSR business for 100 years and if someone died from an accident while riding your train 9 years ago, you are disqualified.

The question should be asked here is whether China is the only one involved with fatal high speed train accident in the past 10 years, and your answer is?

 

[huskie]

Now that I recall it, actually the Korean HSR KTX helped the Chinese a lot in the early prep stage. At that time Chinese MoR sent out teams of engineers to various HSR projects (including Taiwan's) to gain the first hand experience. After they visited the Korean HSR construction sites, they compiled a handbook about what they learnt about the KTX construction so that the Chinese constructors know exactly what should NOT be done in HSR construction. Sometimes a mistake plagued example shows more information to newbies than a role model. Of course, after the Chinese started construction of their own, they went to the Germans for proper consultation, after all, you can only learn limited experience from the Koreans' mistakes.

 

[chauism]

Now that I recall it, actually the Korean HSR KTX helped the Chinese a lot in the early prep stage. At that time Chinese MoR sent out teams of engineers to various HSR projects (including Taiwan's) to gain the first hand experience. After they visited the Korean HSR construction sites, they compiled a handbook about what they learnt about the KTX construction so that the Chinese constructors know exactly what should NOT be done in HSR construction. Sometimes a mistake plagued example shows more information to newbies than a role model. Of course, after the Chinese started construction of their own, they went to the Germans for proper consultation, after all, you can only learn limited experience from the Koreans' mistakes.

Also in the limited years of KTX service it does not have a prefect safety record. It was just lucky that all those accidents were non fatal.

Incidents and accidents





Annual number of breakdowns and failure rate
Operation irregularities mostly concerned the rolling stock, but also signalling, power glitches and track problems.[141] The number of incidents decreased from 28 in the first month to 8 in the fifth.[141] The failure rate decreased sharply by the fifth year of operation.[128] Later, in the first eight months of regular service until October 2010, KTX-II trains broke down 12 times.[142] Causes for breakdowns in the first years of operation involved inexperienced staff and insufficient inspection during maintenance.[143][144]

Lawmakers from the Grand National Party published an investigation in October 2006 and expressed concern about the practice to use parts from other trains for spare parts,[145] but Korail stated that that is standard practice in case of urgency with no safety effect, and the supply of spare parts is secured.[146] Korail is also conducting a localisation program to develop replacements for two dozen imported parts.[128]

On June 13, 2007, near Cheongdo on the upgraded Daegu–Busan section, a damper acting between two cars of a KTX train got free at one end due to a loose screw and hit the trackbed, throwing up ballast that hit cars and caused bruises to two people on the parallel road, until the train was stopped when passengers noticed smoke.[147]

On November 3, 2007, an arriving KTX-I train collided with a parked KTX-I train inside Busan Station, resulting in material damage[148] of 10 billion won[149] and light injuries to two persons.[150] The accident happened because the driver had fallen asleep and disabled the train protection system,[151] and led to the trial and conviction of the driver.[152] The railway union criticised single driver operation in conjunction with the two and a half hours rest time the driver had between shifts.[150]

On February 11, 2011, a KTX-Sancheon train[153] bound for Seoul from Busan derailed on a switch in a tunnel 500 m (1,600 ft) before Gwangmyeong Station,[154] when travelling at around 90 km/h (56 mph).[155] No casualties were reported, only one passenger suffered slight injury, but KTX traffic was blocked for 29 hours while repairs were completed.[153] Preliminary investigation indicated that the accident resulted from a series of human errors.[154] Because workers improperly repaired a point along the tracks.[156] Investigators found that the derailment was caused by a switch malfunction triggered by a loose nut from track, and suspected that a repairman failed to tighten it during maintenance the previous night.[154] The switch's detectors signalled a problem earlier, however, a second maintenance crew failed to find the loose nut and didn't properly communicate the fact to the control center, which then allowed the train on the track.[154] The rail union criticised Korail's use of hired repairmen.[154] there were no problems with the train according to investigation.[156]

On July 15, 2011, 150 passengers were evacuated from a train when smoke started coming out of the train when it arrived at Miryang Station at 11:30 AM.[157] On July 17, 2011 at around 11 AM, a train stopped abruptly and stranded some 400 passengers in the 9.975 km (6.198 mi) Hwanghak Tunnel for over an hour.[157][158] The train resumed service after emergency repairs to a malfunctioning motor.[159] A Korail spokesperson stated that the reason for the stop was due to "faults in the motor block that supplies power to the wheels". The same day, the air conditioning broke down on another train leaving Busan at 1:45 PM. Over 800 passengers were transferred to another train at Daejeon when the problem could not be fixed.[157]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/KTX#Incidents_and_accidents

 

[Korean]

The question should be asked here is whether China is the only one involved with fatal high speed train accident in the past 10 years, and your answer is?

Of course yes. Only China had high speed rail accident fatalities in the past 10 years.

After they visited the Korean HSR construction sites, they compiled a handbook about what they learnt about the KTX construction so that the Chinese constructors know exactly what should NOT be done in HSR construction.

Thanks for sharing your fictitious false memory.

Also in the limited years of KTX service it does not have a prefect safety record.

What the Brazilians are asking for is no fatality in passengers. If you are talking about "accidents", yes there were accidents in Japan, France, Germany, Spain, and Korea. Yet no one ever died riding in Shinkansen or KTX, while the same is not true of people hit by Shinkansen or KTX bullet trains. Yes, Shinkansen and KTX had collisions with automobiles before but no train passenger died from it, while the same can't be true of the people in the vehicles hit by the bullet trains.

It was just lucky that all those accidents were non fatal.

It is no "accident" that those Japanese and Korean crashes were non-fatal. The Shinkansen crashes were at the low-speed crossings on Mini-Shinkansen lines(Regular Shinkansen lines are fully grade separated).

The Korean case crash was more serious, a 150 km full-speed impact with a car stuck by the KTX train running on the "regular" railway line instead of the grade-separated HSR line to serve morning commuter customers. But KTX trains are the only ones operating in Asia specifically designed for crashes, and no train KTX passenger was seriously injured while the car driver whose car was stuck at the crossing was killed instantly. So the Korean train vendors actually brag about how their KTX-II train set has the strongest body strength of all bullet trains operating in the world when marketing overseas.

 

[huskie]

I thought you would turn a blind eye to the facts like most trolls, but I am still gonna list some simple facts, well, not for you sorta trolls' interest, but for the sake of other readers on this forum.

A lot of people noticed the huge cost hike in the Korean KTX construction due to design flaws and reckless route choices. and the root cause for that could have been avoided: the Koreans failed to conduct proper aerial surveys. This is a precious lesson for any country that wants to build HSR in the future, as Korea is the only country that has made such a mistake. It sounds like a stupid mistake that should never happen, but it did happen.

Another issue is the large scale delay and again huge cost hikes due to KTX's improper project management in the early stage. The then Korean project management system was incapable of handling the complication arised from HSR construction, and the Koreans did not want to adopt the mature systems. Another lesson for future constructers: update your project management system along with HSR construction.

There are many more issues during the KTX construction. Like I mentioned before, even if there is not much positive coming from it, the negative and fails from the KTX construction are still very valuable to many other countries.

Of course yes. Only China had high speed rail accident fatalities in the past 10 years.


Thanks for sharing your fictitious false memory.


What the Brazilians are asking for is no fatality in passengers. If you are talking about "accidents", yes there were accidents in Japan, France, Germany, Spain, and Korea. Yet no one ever died riding in Shinkansen or KTX, while the same is not true of people hit by Shinkansen or KTX bullet trains. Yes, Shinkansen and KTX had collisions with automobiles before but no train passenger died from it, while the same can't be true of the people in the vehicles hit by the bullet trains.


It is no "accident" that those Japanese and Korean crashes were non-fatal. The Shinkansen crashes were at the low-speed crossings on Mini-Shinkansen lines(Regular Shinkansen lines are fully grade separated).

The Korean case crash was more serious, a 150 km full-speed impact with a car stuck by the KTX train running on the "regular" railway line instead of the grade-separated HSR line to serve morning commuter customers. But KTX trains are the only ones operating in Asia specifically designed for crashes, and no train KTX passenger was seriously injured while the car driver whose car was stuck at the crossing was killed instantly. So the Korean train vendors actually brag about how their KTX-II train set has the strongest body strength of all bullet trains operating in the world when marketing overseas.

 

[Korean]

A lot of people noticed the huge cost hike in the Korean KTX construction due to design flaws and reckless route choices.

In HSR, you don't have much of a route choice because the line needs to be as straight as possible.

In case of Korea's HSR, the minimum curvature radius was set at 7 km, far above Japanese 4 km standard. This was done to ensure the eventual 350 km/hr revenue service when the train sets become ready, even though Korea had a mountainous terrain. But this meant that they had no choice but to go straight through mountains, so the majority of railway segments are tunnels. But they accepted this as an investment into the future, when their train fleet transition to all 370 km/hr train sets.

and the root cause for that could have been avoided: the Koreans failed to conduct proper aerial surveys. This is a precious lesson for any country that wants to build HSR in the future, as Korea is the only country that has made such a mistake.

This shows that you know nothing about HSR track design and construction.

The Korea HSR is the world's fastest revenue-speed HSR system, with Seoul-Busan corridor rated at 350 km/hr and Seoul-Mokpo corridor rated at 370 km/hr.

While China's Beijing-Shanghai corridor was designed for 9 km minimum curvature radius good for 380 km/hr revenue service operation, trains actually cannot run at that speed because of poor quality track construction that would deform the rails and destroy the viaduct and bridges if the trains actually ran at that speed, so the maximum speed was capped at 310 km/hr after the Wenzhou disaster.

 

[chauism]

Of course yes. Only China had high speed rail accident fatalities in the past 10 years.


Thanks for sharing your fictitious false memory.


What the Brazilians are asking for is no fatality in passengers. If you are talking about "accidents", yes there were accidents in Japan, France, Germany, Spain, and Korea. Yet no one ever died riding in Shinkansen or KTX, while the same is not true of people hit by Shinkansen or KTX bullet trains. Yes, Shinkansen and KTX had collisions with automobiles before but no train passenger died from it, while the same can't be true of the people in the vehicles hit by the bullet trains.


It is no "accident" that those Japanese and Korean crashes were non-fatal. The Shinkansen crashes were at the low-speed crossings on Mini-Shinkansen lines(Regular Shinkansen lines are fully grade separated).

The Korean case crash was more serious, a 150 km full-speed impact with a car stuck by the KTX train running on the "regular" railway line instead of the grade-separated HSR line to serve morning commuter customers. But KTX trains are the only ones operating in Asia specifically designed for crashes, and no train KTX passenger was seriously injured while the car driver whose car was stuck at the crossing was killed instantly. So the Korean train vendors actually brag about how their KTX-II train set has the strongest body strength of all bullet trains operating in the world when marketing overseas.

For KTX it was not crash, it was crashes, and yes there was no fatalities because they occured at low speed, at 90 km/h. So how youcould spin this into how they designthe train for crash is beyond my imagination, let’s see how KTX will do when it crash at the same speed as Chinese HSR.

 

[Korean]

For KTX it was not crash, it was crashes, and yes there was no fatalities because they occured at low speed, at 90 km/h.

Two crashes.

1. One at the maintenance depot where the positive traffic control is off and the driver dozed off. The trains were empty.
2. One was the above mentioned collision with a stuck car at the crossing. While the car's driver was killed, no one on the train was seriously injured. Oh, and the impact speed in this particular accident was 150 km/hr. The Wenzhou crash happened at 200 km/hr.
3. I am not counting any train to suiciding people/animal collisions.

So how youcould spin this into how they designthe train for crash is beyond my imagination

It shows that the KTX train is ready to protect the passengers when the collisions to occur in an unexpected event. The train to train crash is impossible because of positive traffic control system, but cars and trucks could fall from the bridge and land on track, and the train is designed for such impacts at high speed.

let’s see how KTX will do when it crash at the same speed as Chinese HSR.

That won't happen in Korea and in Korean-constructed railway systems.

 

[huskie]

you simply have no idea about real HSR design and construction. Good route design does not necessarily mean you can't choose the 7000m radius. The KTX issue I listed are almost widely known 'open secrets' in the industry. if all Koreans are ignorant like you, that is probably why KTX made so many 'unique' mistakes in the early stage.

but anyway, you are quite a diligent troll, I'll give you that.

In HSR, you don't have much of a route choice because the line needs to be as straight as possible.

In case of Korea's HSR, the minimum curvature radius was set at 7 km, far above Japanese 4 km standard. This was done to ensure the eventual 350 km/hr revenue service when the train sets become ready, even though Korea had a mountainous terrain. But this meant that they had no choice but to go straight through mountains, so the majority of railway segments are tunnels. But they accepted this as an investment into the future, when their train fleet transition to all 370 km/hr train sets.


This shows that you know nothing about HSR track design and construction.

The Korea HSR is the world's fastest revenue-speed HSR system, with Seoul-Busan corridor rated at 350 km/hr and Seoul-Mokpo corridor rated at 370 km/hr.

While China's Beijing-Shanghai corridor was designed for 9 km minimum curvature radius good for 380 km/hr revenue service operation, trains actually cannot run at that speed because of poor quality track construction that would deform the rails and destroy the viaduct and bridges if the trains actually ran at that speed, so the maximum speed was capped at 310 km/hr after the Wenzhou disaster.

 

[Korean]

Good route design does not necessarily mean you can't choose the 7000m radius.

Well, look up Korea's terrain on the Google Earth and tell me where you are supposed to go get the 7,000 m minimum curvature radius without tunneling.

Japanese kept their Shinkansen MCR at 4,000 m as a compromise between cost and speed. Korea didn't compromise.

Chuo Shinkansen line is mostly underground because it is a maglev and requires high MCR to work(Turning corners at 500 km/hr is not for the faint-hearted), and its construction will have a cost of $120 billion for 480 km. So is Chuo Shinkansen's design a "mistake" too by your logic?

The KTX issue I listed are almost widely known 'open secrets' in the industry.

Indeed they are super-secrets since no one's heard of them but you.

if all Koreans are ignorant like you, that is probably why KTX made so many 'unique' mistakes in the early stage.

What "non-existent" mistakes are you talking about?

but anyway, you are quite a diligent troll, I'll give you that.

Look who's talking.

 

[chauism]

Two crashes.

1. One at the maintenance depot where the positive traffic control is off and the driver dozed off. The trains were empty.
2. One was the above mentioned collision with a stuck car at the crossing. While the car's driver was killed, no one on the train was seriously injured. Oh, and the impact speed in this particular accident was 150 km/hr. The Wenzhou crash happened at 200 km/hr.
3. I am not counting any train to suiciding people/animal collisions.


It shows that the KTX train is ready to protect the passengers when the collisions to occur in an unexpected event. The train to train crash is impossible because of positive traffic control system, but cars and trucks could fall from the bridge and land on track, and the train is designed for such impacts at high speed.


That won't happen in Korea and in Korean-constructed railway systems.

Incidents and accidents





Annual number of breakdowns and failure rate
Operation irregularities mostly concerned the rolling stock, but also signalling, power glitches and track problems.[141] The number of incidents decreased from 28 in the first month to 8 in the fifth.[141] The failure rate decreased sharply by the fifth year of operation.[128] Later, in the first eight months of regular service until October 2010, KTX-II trains broke down 12 times.[142] Causes for breakdowns in the first years of operation involved inexperienced staff and insufficient inspection during maintenance.[143][144]

Lawmakers from the Grand National Party published an investigation in October 2006 and expressed concern about the practice to use parts from other trains for spare parts,[145] but Korail stated that that is standard practice in case of urgency with no safety effect, and the supply of spare parts is secured.[146] Korail is also conducting a localisation program to develop replacements for two dozen imported parts.[128]

On June 13, 2007, near Cheongdo on the upgraded Daegu–Busan section, a damper acting between two cars of a KTX train got free at one end due to a loose screw and hit the trackbed, throwing up ballast that hit cars and caused bruises to two people on the parallel road, until the train was stopped when passengers noticed smoke.[147]

On November 3, 2007, an arriving KTX-I train collided with a parked KTX-I train inside Busan Station, resulting in material damage[148] of 10 billion won[149] and light injuries to two persons.[150] The accident happened because the driver had fallen asleep and disabled the train protection system,[151] and led to the trial and conviction of the driver.[152] The railway union criticised single driver operation in conjunction with the two and a half hours rest time the driver had between shifts.[150]

On February 11, 2011, a KTX-Sancheon train[153] bound for Seoul from Busan derailed on a switch in a tunnel 500 m (1,600 ft) before Gwangmyeong Station,[154] when travelling at around 90 km/h (56 mph).[155] No casualties were reported, only one passenger suffered slight injury, but KTX traffic was blocked for 29 hours while repairs were completed.[153] Preliminary investigation indicated that the accident resulted from a series of human errors.[154] Because workers improperly repaired a point along the tracks.[156] Investigators found that the derailment was caused by a switch malfunction triggered by a loose nut from track, and suspected that a repairman failed to tighten it during maintenance the previous night.[154] The switch's detectors signalled a problem earlier, however, a second maintenance crew failed to find the loose nut and didn't properly communicate the fact to the control center, which then allowed the train on the track.[154] The rail union criticised Korail's use of hired repairmen.[154] there were no problems with the train according to investigation.[156]

On July 15, 2011, 150 passengers were evacuated from a train when smoke started coming out of the train when it arrived at Miryang Station at 11:30 AM.[157] On July 17, 2011 at around 11 AM, a train stopped abruptly and stranded some 400 passengers in the 9.975 km (6.198 mi) Hwanghak Tunnel for over an hour.[157][158] The train resumed service after emergency repairs to a malfunctioning motor.[159] A Korail spokesperson stated that the reason for the stop was due to "faults in the motor block that supplies power to the wheels". The same day, the air conditioning broke down on another train leaving Busan at 1:45 PM. Over 800 passengers were transferred to another train at Daejeon when the problem could not be fixed.[157]

Show me which one is the one that occured at 150km/h. Anyways even if it is at 150 km/h, if you have any knowledge of physics, the impact of a train hitting a car which weights much less at 150km/h is totally different from a train hitting another train which weights the same even at the same 150 km/h.

At least here is no Chinese HSR train got derailed because it got free at one end due to a loose screw and hit the trackbed.

 

[Korean]

Show me which one is the one that occured at 150km/h.

The crash took place on July 31st, 2011.

Anyways even if it is at 150 km/h, if you have any knowledge of physics, the impact of a train hitting a car which weights much less at 150km/h is totally different from a train hitting another train which weights the same even at the same 150 km/h.

Train to train collision is not possible on a fully functional positive traffic controlled railway. In other word, the train to train is not possible.

The reason why the Wenzhou crash took place is 1. the PTC was manually turned off. 2. The PTC had no lightening strike protection.

If it was the KTX-II instead of Shinkan E2 that crashed at Wenzhou, the fatality would have been low to none because the heavy locomotive protected passenger coaches, and the train would certainly not have flown off the viaduct upon impact.

At least here is no Chinese HSR train got derailed because it got free at one end due to a loose screw and hit the trackbed.

Well, good luck trying to sell Chinese high speed rail system to foreign customers then. Chinese might have luck with 3rd world country customers where China is building the system as an aid, but no customer paying with its own money would touch Chinese bullet trains.

 

[chauism]

The crash took place on July 31st, 2011.

I am having difficult time to figuare out whether you are just making this up or simply everyone else just don't care whether there was one such accident happened in Korea.

July 7, 2011 – India: A Mathura Chhapra Express train rams into a bus carrying wedding guests around 2 a.m. at an unmanned railway crossing in Thanagaon, Kanshiram Nagar district, Uttar Pradesh, killing 38 and injuring 30.[84]
July 10, 2011 – India: Fatehpur derailment – The Kalka Mail train running from Howrah to Delhi derails near the town of Fatehpur in Uttar Pradesh, killing 70 people and injuring more than 300.[85][86]
July 10, 2011 – India: The engine along with four coaches of the Guwahati Puri Express derails between Rangiya and Ghagrapar, Nalbari district, Assam and capsizes in a rivulet, injuring more than 100 people, 20 critically.[87]
July 11, 2011 – United States: An Amtrak Downeaster passenger train from Boston, Massachusetts heading to Portland, Maine is struck by a garbage truck at a crossing in North Berwick, Maine, killing the driver of the truck and setting the locomotive and one passenger car on fire.[88]
July 21, 2011 – United States: A Rock Island Line Metra train destined for Chicago strikes an automobile at a rail crossing between the Tinley Park and Oak Forest stations at about 4 p.m. Traveling as fast as 60 miles per hour (97 km/h), the train crushes the vehicle; 2 women inside die. Of the 89 passengers aboard, seven are taken to local hospitals with what police characterized as minor injuries.[89]
July 23, 2011 – China: Wenzhou train collision – Reportedly due to signal failures, a high-speed train rear-ends a stopped high-speed train at a speed of 180 km/h (110 mph) near Wenzhou in the province of Zhejiang, killing at least 39 people and injuring over 200.[90] Five carriages derail and fall off a bridge.[91]
July 26, 2011 – Poland: Seven goods wagons roll uncontrolled 2 km (1.2 mi) and then derail and crash into a Strzelce Krajeńskie Wschód rail station building. Three people die.[92]
India: July 31, 2011 – The engine and some coaches of the Guwahati Bangalore Express derail and are hit by another train in Malda district, West Bengal. At least three people are killed and 200 injured.[93]

Where is you accident?????????????????????


August 12, 2011 – Poland: 2011 Baby derailment – A passenger train with 280 passengers derails due to high speed at Baby, Piotrków County, Poland, killing one passenger and injuring 84.[94]
August 31, 2011 – India: Two goods trains collide near Tangiriapal railway station, about 65 km (40 mi) from Keonjhar on the Jakhapura-Banspani railway line around 1:30 am. Five members of the train crew are killed.[95]
India: September 13, 2011 – A passenger train fails to slow at a signal and slams into a stationary cargo train near Chennai, Tamil Nadu, killing 10 and injuring 52.[96]

List of rail accidents (2010

Train to train collision is not possible on a fully functional positive traffic controlled railway. In other word, the train to train is not possible.

The reason why the Wenzhou crash took place is 1. the PTC was manually turned off. 2. The PTC had no lightening strike protection.

Wenzhou accident was due to adminstrating human error rather than a system malfunction. You are right on this that this kind of accident should not happen at all.

If it was the KTX-II instead of Shinkan E2 that crashed at Wenzhou, the fatality would have been low to none because the heavy locomotive protected passenger coaches, and the train would certainly not have flown off the viaduct upon impact.

Like KTX never derailed. Oh wait it did, but there had to be a viaduct for it to be frown off from when it was derailed, but since it happened in a tunnel so where could it flown off to.