50 reasons Pakistan needs Musharraf

[T-Faz]

Yes agreed upto certain extents, But lets not take the credit away from PML-Q and ministers from other respective provinces. One of the reason mentioned in your 50 reasons is that Musharraf established "University of Gujrat" whereas it was a brainchild of Chaudry Parvez Ellahi. You may know very well that the Chaudry brothers belong to Gujrat so in their last tenure they wanted to give something to this city so that they could politicize in their incoming campaigns that they did something for this city just like The Prime Minister of Pakistan "Mr Gilani" is doing for Multan by accelerating the pace work of their ongoing/future projects (Motorways, Gas, Electricity plants etc).

The education standard has undoubtedly has gone up, but that I would say is thanks to Musharraf (only for being president), Parvez Ellahi and the USA for giving aid with strings attached that the aid will be invested in education sector only.....(talking about Punjab Province only as I can't say about other provinces for now)

The work done in any governments time is attributed to it, this is a simple rationale and one that cannot be denied. PML-Q was formed of those who would be able to serve Musharraf's and the countries best interests. SImilarly as you stated, what Gilani does during his tenure will be attributed wholly to him and the government of that time. This is how it works in terms of listing achievements.

You should also be aware that we still get US aid and there is a big component for education within it. But the current Gov has slashed the education budget and there does not seem to be any respite for it.

Yes surely it does!
Both "Laila and Majnu" were looking for each other. The western companies in competition of spreading their businesses all over the world were hoping to attract 180 million peoples of Pakistan... and the government was hoping to bring foreign investors in the country so it was only possible due to mutual consent/understanding by the both respective entities.

Sure, but why does the current Gov unable to lure in some big IT companies. You see the it depends on governance, if the government can provide adequate security, infrastructure improvements and make the country look attractive to such investors. Musharraf's Gov did an admirable job in making the country look attractive to foreign investors. It is about the image too because a hostile (Iran) or weak (Afghanistan) government cannot gain the confidence of investors.

Well good to see that you accepted the error in this report as you can see there is a huge difference between 70 billion dollars and 70 billion rupees. So I stand at my point...Crap/poorly written article.

As Jana stated, it was circulated by APML's PR team and thus it will exaggerate facts and figures for political purposes.

Secondly I am not proud to see Pakistan standing at Number 1 for CNG users as we are way below the chart in production of CNG. So we are heavily relying on petroleum products that are being imported from other countries and consequently making loss of forex exchange reserves. It is also not good for the environment to use more petroleum products. So I don't think we should be proud to see it standing at number 1

We must try to limit the use of CNG by finding either Green or cheaper alternatives and try to fulfil our demands domestically anyway possible.

I cannot follow what you are saying here. Compressed Natural Gas (CNG) is an alternative to petrol, diesel, and propane/LPG. It is green per say but not as much as electrical source (which we do not have).

We are No.23 on natural gas producers so we are not exactly lacking much in this particular area. Petroleum is only a necessity because of the demand created by products and industries that rely upon it.

Yes i know about these licences but that all together does not make 10 billion dollars worth of foreign investment for the whole Musharraf's regime

Could you locate the actual figure of investment in his tenure too then because I would like to be in the know too.

Pursuing is not enough T-Faz Sir,
We need to implement these projects and reap the fruitful results. Lets alienate the marble industry as it was well established before Musharraf's era in NWFP (K-P) of Pakistan.

In our country, a small project takes a long time only because of regional aspects that are well known to many people. Had he stayed in power, you should have seen them progress forward for some projects.

Yes, I have always been insisting that Mr Musharraf was a true nationalist. He was an honest man unlike some other politicians. But unfortunately he found the most corrupt peoples under his regime that is the fact that he had came from the back-door and he needed someone to protect him as a President. So he had to adore (or should i say suffer) the worst political party of Pakistan. That in my opinion is Q-League.

Its entirely impossible to not have corrupt officials in a government set up. Like I said the problem of corruption runs far too deep and it will take time to solve.

You see the housing projects, damaged earthquake properties, Afghanistan and new foreign investors brought the cement industry and all those industries that you need to build a house prospered dramatically. So the credit goes to everybody including the Nature & Musharraf

Perhaps, but I do not remember the amount of projects that were undertaken in his time that actually occurred before.

lol why compare 80s of India? because Pakistan was sitting on the lap of USA being blessed with Economic aid and India was alienated due to Afghan war as its major ally USSR was being crushed by the rest of the World. The right way to compare both countries is to find the right/same era.

India was doing well in the 80's for some parts economically. It was due to major political issues which caused the economy to derail. Its a natural comparison, assassination of leaders and civil unrest like occurred during then and thus it makes for a very interesting comparison.

But was it not only for one year? Musharraf was in power for 10 years right?

The median GDP growth during his tenure is god enough.

Musharraf came from the back-door by over-throwing a democratic government (good government or bad doesn't matter here). Changed the whole constitution to protect himself, Suspension, Reinstatement, Suspension again of the Judges and made judiciary a Joke and humiliated the name of Pakistan worldwide, Emergency Declared, one of the biggest corruption in Pakistan's history (in Steel Industry) etc. All this also happened in the same Musharraf's era

Given but that should be expected of any leader in Pak owing to the environment and people.

I would say he mishandled the Talibans and the increase of suicide attacks was also a failure of his government. There was no/hardly any suicide attack before 9/11 so if he had properly managed the whole scene. We may have saved a lot of lives in Pakistan. The peoples of Pakistan are may be stupid, but they could have been educated way before these regular suicide attacks started happening.

I actually believe that the security agencies were able to quell militant groups during the 2001 - 2006/7 period. It was only in the end days of Musharraf when the unusual increase occurred and that was due to ineffective control because of unnecessary tussles with judiciary and others.

Yes but not to forget we were also under sanctions comparing to Musharraf's era when the sanctions were lifted and he enjoyed Aid from the international communities/countries.

This aid thing is a lifeline for Pakistan, kudos to those who can get it because the way it stopped after Zia, the country just slipped down the wrong path. Though I want the country to become self reliant, this would take time to implement and sometimes seem to be a difficult task.

 

[z9-ec]

Most of the sources you mentioned are from blogs and blogs are never a credible source. Yes there has been a boom in Telecommunication sector and I never denied that. But technically you cannot give the whole credit to Musharraf saab. I will reply to your post in detail if you can give me the answer of only 1 question.

You said above our economy stood at mere 50 billion dollars USD in 1999. Prove it from the credible source (and not Blogs or wikipedia kind of websites) or stay away from this discussion.

Blogs?!

Do you consider Business Week, Bloomberg and World Bank blogs?

Here's more proof:

DDP Error Page


Need more?

 

[Hyde]

@ T-Faz
I will reply to your post later bro, just little busy at the moment

Blogs?!

Do you consider Business Week, Bloomberg and World Bank blogs?

Here's more proof:

DDP Error Page


Need more?

The source you shared in this post says.......

The session has timed out.If you have made any selection or created a report , they are lost.Kindly click on the following link

You shared only one news from businessweek and I know very well about china mobile willing to invest 1 billion USD in Paistan....but never heard they have already invested 1 billion USD..... as per claimed by the news agencies

Mobilink reaches 3.5 billion USD of investment in Pakistan is coming from a blog. I need a credible source to prove this news and for your general knowledge Mobilink estabished her business in Pakistan back in 1994 and started investing in phases. They invested before Musharraf, they invested in his regime, they invested after Musharraf (last year). The invention of latest technology (1G, 2g, 2.5g, 3g, 3.5g and nowadays 4g) has made it possible for all mobile companies to attract more n more customers worldwide and thus mobile companies are invested big money globally to generate most revenue possible. They do for their own benefits before anything and they have done in every single country of the world including Pakistan.

Even China Mobile (formerly known as Paktel) was founded back in 1990s many years before Musharraf's era. But those days we barely had a mobile phone worldwide, this technology was new and I can remember big businessmen used to hold 2kg mobile phones and roaming around. Those days were different but even this company has been investing in Pakistan since past 2 decades and not only Musharraf's era

You just tell me the question asked in my last post. Did our GDP stood at 50 billion USD in 1999? if yes then prove?

Telecommunication sector is only one out of many.... First you reply to the question asked in my last post

 

[z9-ec]

@ T-Faz
I will reply to your post later bro, just little busy at the moment


The source you shared in this post says.......



You shared only one news from businessweek and I know very well about china mobile willing to invest 1 billion USD in Paistan....but never heard they have already invested 1 billion USD..... as per claimed by the news agencies

Mobilink reaches 3.5 billion USD of investment in Pakistan is coming from a blog. I need a credible source to prove this news and for your general knowledge Mobilink estabished her business in Pakistan back in 1994 and started investing in phases. They invested before Musharraf, they invested in his regime, they invested after Musharraf (last year). The invention of latest technology (1G, 2g, 2.5g, 3g, 3.5g and nowadays 4g) has made it possible for all mobile companies to attract more n more customers worldwide and thus mobile companies are invested big money globally to generate most revenue possible. They do for their own benefits before anything and they have done in every single country of the world including Pakistan.

Even China Mobile (formerly known as Paktel) was founded back in 1990s many years before Musharraf's era. But those days we barely had a mobile phone worldwide, this technology was new and I can remember big businessmen used to hold 2kg mobile phones and roaming around. Those days were different but even this company has been investing in Pakistan since past 2 decades and not only Musharraf's era

You just tell me the question asked in my last post. Did our GDP stood at 50 billion USD in 1999? if yes then prove?

Telecommunication sector is only one out of many.... First you reply to the question asked in my last post

I'm not sure as to why the link expired as I had it still running. Nevertheless, you could visit World Databank and look at it yourself.

Here's a screen shot.

 

[Hyde]

I'm not sure as to why the link expired as I had it still running. Nevertheless, you could visit World Databank and look at it yourself.

Here's a screen shot.

I know that world bank website but its not working for me at the moment may be due to some technical error

See even your report suggests that the GDP stood at 63 billion dollars in 1999 and 74 billion dollars in 2000. Now technically Musharraf came in power in 2000 as the former democratic government was overthrown on 12th October 1999. see the figures are exaggerated and proving my point only

And the key point to notice is that the first 2-3 years of Musharraf's era were horrible.... There was a very slow economic growth between 2000 - 2002/03 due to the same economic sanctions suffered by the former governments and aftermath of the Nuclear bomb and see the difference after the sanctions were lifted. There was a huge role played by the United States in the country's economy in exchange of supporting War on Terror and we all know that. If you notice the growth rate between 1999 and 2005 it was way behind/below average comparing to other developing nations (GDP-PPP chart)

and that tells the story of Musharraf's first 5 years in power. Remaining 2 years were honey and I admire that.....see I am not against Musharraf but the figures usually mentioned by the pro-Musharraf lobby are usually heavily exaggerated and thats what my point is.....

Anyway i will get back to T-Faz post soon.... bye for now

 

[jayron]

Mushraff Talks about his Kashmir solution:

India and Pak were close to a Kashmir solution: Musharraf

 

[z9-ec]

I know that world bank website but its not working for me at the moment may be due to some technical error

See even your report suggests that the GDP stood at 63 billion dollars in 1999 and 74 billion dollars in 2000. Now technically Musharraf came in power in 2000 as the former democratic government was overthrown on 12th October 1999. see the figures are exaggerated and proving my point only

oh bhai 50 ho ya 20 the point is look at where we are now 63 to 166 billion in 2009.

Growth rate:
2000 2001 2002 2003 2004 2005 2006 2007 2008 09
GDP growth (annual &#37 4 2 3 5 7 8 6 6 2 4


http://databank.worldbank.org/ddp/h...1&COLUMN_COUNT=11&PAGE_COUNT=1&COMMA_SEP=true

nd the key point to notice is that the first 2-3 years of Musharraf's era were horrible.... There was a very slow economic growth between 2000 - 2002/03 due to the same economic sanctions suffered by the former governments and aftermath of the Nuclear bomb and see the difference after the sanctions were lifted. There was a huge role played by the United States in the country's economy in exchange of supporting War on Terror and we all know that. If you notice the growth rate between 1999 and 2005 it was way behind/below average comparing to other developing nations (GDP-PPP chart)

Again, the US card is irrelevant what is stopping Zardari from achieving the same GDP growth rate if the US was behind Musharraf's success? further more, there were no economic sanctions until the late 90s. (1998- early 1999 to be precise).

 

[Tuahaa]

According to 'transparency international', Pakistan went from 11th most corrupt govt. to 47th during Musharraf's regime...

 

[Hyde]

oh bhai 50 ho ya 20 the point is look at where we are now 63 to 166 billion in 2009.

Growth rate:
2000 2001 2002 2003 2004 2005 2006 2007 2008 09
GDP growth (annual &#37 4 2 3 5 7 8 6 6 2 4


DDP Error Page



Again, the US card is irrelevant what is stopping Zardari from achieving the same GDP growth rate if the US was behind Musharraf's success? further more, there were no economic sanctions until the late 90s. (1998- early 1999 to be precise).

The sanctions were put right after General's Zia's assasination/incident. Both regimes (PPP/PML-N) were under sanctions and were under suspicion of making Nuclear bombs just like Iran is facing nowadays. There was an economic/military boycott to Pakistan and the world cared less for this country as they had no serious interest left after Afghan War until WoT that brought us back in the stage and the world needed us once again.

After 1998 it was only worse.... and like i said before... We progressed in all 6 decades...The economy was bound to increase so it did.... We are among the very few countries in the world who successfully managed to grow its economy since past 6 decades. Now more or less....thats a different story....I have never said Musharraf did not work for the country...In fact if you read my second post in this thread I said he was a true nationalist and an honest man...But he found the worst political party to save himself from the peoples wrath....As the way he reigned the country was unconstitutional and could face heavy penalty/punishment otherwise....

I am arguing on the point that There is no need to show wrong statistics to flatter his economic progress. I have so far highlighted quite a few points here that has already been proved false (as claimed by the first post in this thread and by you).

You can improve his image by showing the right figures only as he had managed to do a lot of wonders in his regime - but surely not the way it is being portrayed here

 

[Hyde]

Sure, but why does the current Gov unable to lure in some big IT companies. You see the it depends on governance, if the government can provide adequate security, infrastructure improvements and make the country look attractive to such investors. Musharraf's Gov did an admirable job in making the country look attractive to foreign investors. It is about the image too because a hostile (Iran) or weak (Afghanistan) government cannot gain the confidence of investors.

But surely foreign direct investment could have been a lot more. If you see the FDI in our region, you can see most of the countries performed better than us and attracted more foreign investors than us

You will see the trend of foreign investment has only been started since late 90s as the invention of latest technology has attracted customers to buy

1) Latest Mobile phones / PDA's / pocket PCs (which was never possible before)
2) Cheaper telecommunication services and tens of mobile network providers to choose from (newly established industry)
3) Laptop/PC... (too expensive in 90s)
4) IT Industry hardware/software/gaming/programming (newly established industries)
5) Internet / Broadbands / wifi / mobile broadbands (newly introduced industries)
6) Latest/cheaper cars
7) the list can be very long

this has only been possible recently thanks to the global inventions that brought peoples closer and eliminated the boundary lines and opened the gateway of investment all over the world...

I did not select Sri Lanka, Nepal, Bhutan etc because they are less populated comparing to other in the region and economically they too performed better than us if you keep their low GDP and population in mind. (sorry for Turkey that was selected by mistake).

5 Nations having similar economy of Pakistan (Nominal GDP)

As Jana stated, it was circulated by APML's PR team and thus it will exaggerate facts and figures for political purposes.

Good, at least you accepted that the figures were exaggerated and thats exactly my point was. I was pissed off by looking 70 billion dollars of investment in CNG which could never been true.... i would have rather ignored this thread if i had not read that part

Could you locate the actual figure of investment in his tenure too then because I would like to be in the know too.

Posted above or you can use this World bank data

Foreign direct investment, net inflows (BoP, current US$) | Data | Table

The FDI fell drastically in 2009 thanks to the Judges movement that brought the whole nation on streets and paved the way for the foreign investors to pack up and run away from this country. (One of the silliest act by General retired Parvez Musharraf). Also the economic turmoil caused the nation to close their international branches and bring the investment back to their headquarters (for example Halifax bank).

In our country, a small project takes a long time only because of regional aspects that are well known to many people. Had he stayed in power, you should have seen them progress forward for some projects.

Well these are all hypothetical statements...He stayed in the government for 9 years right? Still could not convince one dealer to sign an agreement for the coal projects? He did sign several Memorandum of Understandings but never did he successfully signed any deal.

He raised a voice for Kalabagh dam that is still under jeopardy. The question is not what he had done if he had stayed in the government...the question is what has he done in his 9 years tenure when he was given a chance to actually DO something.

Its entirely impossible to not have corrupt officials in a government set up. Like I said the problem of corruption runs far too deep and it will take time to solve.

Yes agreed.....corruption is everywhere in Pakistan
He had no option but to accept those corrupt politicians and who could form a so-called parliament and can tag themselves as a Democratic government.

Perhaps, but I do not remember the amount of projects that were undertaken in his time that actually occurred before.

Well I have been hearing this since ages now....Here is one last recent article for your general knowledge and I believe even here the stats are incorrect as the demand of cement has risen more than 235% as reported by this source

It said that in the last decade the demand for cement has increased by 235 percent to 33.2 million tonnes while, supply, due to expansions has increased to 44.8 million tonnes, i.e. excess supply of 11.6 million tonnes. The Pakistan cement sector may witness an expansion phase in 2014 due to pickup in local and regional demand, it said.

Pakistan: Cement exports to increase manifold

By the way there is tons of cement exported illegally to Afghanistan so make an account of that too

The median GDP growth during his tenure is god enough.

Yes it is....But my point is..... show what is true
Not the fake reports
Stick with the correct stats and figures and thats what i am arguing about

You can read the posts in this thread when even Mr Z9-ec were claiming the GDP stood at 50 billion dollars in 1999 whereas when Musharraf came it was around 74 billion dollars as per his own source. Thats 50%~ more than as claimed by pro-Musharraf fans.

Given but that should be expected of any leader in Pak owing to the environment and people.

Well the other leaders are corrupt too and I personally do not like any political party in Pakistan. But at least they came democratically.... at least the elections were held in the country and they were chosen by the public unlike.....Mr Former President

I actually believe that the security agencies were able to quell militant groups during the 2001 - 2006/7 period. It was only in the end days of Musharraf when the unusual increase occurred and that was due to ineffective control because of unnecessary tussles with judiciary and others.

Well not really, the suicide bombs started taking place right after the WoT and increased in multi folds after the lal Masjid operation. I personally believe he did the right thing by crushing those terrorists but even matter was not handled properly

Look at the number of suicide attacks sharply increased after the Lal-Masjid operation

List of terrorist incidents in Pakistan since 2001 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

This aid thing is a lifeline for Pakistan, kudos to those who can get it because the way it stopped after Zia, the country just slipped down the wrong path. Though I want the country to become self reliant, this would take time to implement and sometimes seem to be a difficult task.

Not the lifeline really... if they can erupt the corruption from the country, they wouldn't need loans or aids anymore. If they can increase a little % of tax collection you will see many heavy industries being built domestically.

Read this report from Transparency International (if you haven't read already) and you will be amazed by the facts mentioned about Pakistan.

Hotfile.com: One click file hosting: t-faz.pdf

 

[Hyde]

Anyway, i think its time to drop this matter here as this is history now and you too have confessed that the figures shown in the first post are exaggerated and thats exactly my point was

As Jana stated, it was circulated by APML's PR team and thus it will exaggerate facts and figures for political purposes.

 

[eric_cartman]

I have read his autobiography -: On the line of fire by Pervez Musharraf, if all development done during his tenure is true, then I think it was good for Pakistan!

 

[Fasih Khan]

Eric, basically any person who is even a bit Sane prefers Musharraf over Pakistan's Curropt Politicians. Unfortunately Politicians have tried defaming him with false propaganda and some in masses buy that.

 

[EgO Boy]

Dear T-Faz, just let him come to Pakistan and preach these 50 achivements to people of pakistan and see what response he will get from people of pakistan.

Iam holding my breath for his return, lets see on live tv how people of pakistan greets him or may be some people in uniform will greet him on some obscure helipad on unknown location.

Lets see how the media which he librated greets him.

Lets see weather he chooses to live among pakistani's or behind GHQ wall for protection from the very people he wants to save.

Lets see weather he can walk without the Besaki of GHQ.

 

[Man of Thoughts]

Mush is Miltry man,i don't feel any problem if there is a miltry man or a politician if he is a good governer and other people also don't,

But a Miltry man cannot come to the Power without the help of Politicians and bureaucracy,so when he gets theie help they also wants something in retrun....
and when he do so he also gets his dirty

so a dictator caanot be a good governer in most cases