3 retired Generals to be court-martialed in NLC scam

[All-Green]

Why should we be thankful for army to prosecute three criminals for abusing the trust of the whole nation ?, what kind of thinking is that? Remember its the same army who named Yahya khan (general) "tiger" for losing half the pakistan , wake up my friend this army thinks pakistan is their hoar and they can rape her whenever they want

BTW, Yahya Khan is not the famed "tiger" referred to in many 71 war discussions.
It was Gen Niazi who was nicknamed the tiger by his British officer after he covered himself in glory on the Burma front, fighting the Japanese Imperial Army in World War 2.
It was quite humiliating to see this tiger surrendering east Pakistan to India, however one must remember the negative role played by all the stakeholders in Pakistan which brought about this unfortunate schism between east and west Pakistan.
It was not just the military which contributed to this sad day, people like Zulfiqar Bhutto placed their personal interests before the national interest and created a political standoff despite the clear democratic win of Mujeeb.
Bhutto famously threatened to break the legs of his party leaders if anyone of them attended the parliament session.
Needless to say, such nonsensical views of western democratic forces gave little confidence to the east Pakistani people who were already upset over a few things.

Anyhow, coming back to the court martial.
Let us see what happens before crying foul play.
It is indeed a big step forward that these big fish are being tried, let us wait and see the outcome of this court martial.

The military system has a lots of checks on the soldiers and officers, however there is a growing feeling helped by a lot of observations (Crore commander ring any bell?) that the Generals are mostly above checks and have a lot of avenues to further their bank balance, unless few examples are set.
Maybe this court martial is a much needed one to curb this growing tendency?
I hope so.

 

[VCheng]

................
The military system has a lots of checks on the soldiers and officers, however there is a growing feeling helped by a lot of observations (Crore commander ring any bell?) that the Generals are mostly above checks and have a lot of avenues to further their bank balance, unless few examples are set.
Maybe this court martial is a much needed one to curb this growing tendency?
I hope so.

Exactly my point, Sir.

 

[Jango]

The military system has a lots of checks on the soldiers and officers, however there is a growing feeling helped by a lot of observations (Crore commander ring any bell?) that the Generals are mostly above checks and have a lot of avenues to further their bank balance, unless few examples are set.
Maybe this court martial is a much needed one to curb this growing tendency?
I hope so.

We all hope so, may this be a change in trend. And a warning for the lower level officers (Lt Col etc).

 

[Abu Zolfiqar]

I am sure that regular practices of the Army are good in proper "grooming" of the officers from the very start.

Please note that I have nothing but the highest of admiration and praise for the rank and file, and have no doubt that the system of checks and balances keeps most of them on the straight and narrow, exemplified by your post.

However, senior Army leadership and their corruption, such as the one that is the topic of this thread, is another matter entirely, wouldn't you agree?

and that is why it is being pursued.

the COAS himself approved & ordered an inquiry to be made

 

[VCheng]

and that is why it is being pursued.

the COAS himself approved & ordered an inquiry to be made

About time it happened. It is long overdue, in fact.

 

[Abu Zolfiqar]

About time it happened. It is long overdue, in fact.

Cheng, the order came from COAS almost 2 years ago....this is not a new development

 

[blain2]

I am sure that regular practices of the Army are good in proper "grooming" of the officers from the very start.

Please note that I have nothing but the highest of admiration and praise for the rank and file, and have no doubt that the system of checks and balances keeps most of them on the straight and narrow, exemplified by your post.

However, senior Army leadership and their corruption, such as the one that is the topic of this thread, is another matter entirely, wouldn't you agree?

VC,

One must quantify what this corruption is. What I have found is that tales of corruption stick in Pakistan. This is not a denial about corruption. Yes there is some, but the institutional checks are as such that the vast majority of those in uniform conform to norms of service which include honest dealings, personal financial honesty and living within ones means. To add to Xeric's example, I will tell you that a cheque written by an officer, if it happens to be rejected due to lack of money in ones account, leads to serious reprimand at the unit/CO level. It was unheard of back in the day and I feel its no different to this day so financial irregularity is not common and not easy to hide in service.

Now at the senior level, certain individuals are involved in large defence deals, contracts and yes there is a possibility of corruption there and we know of some instances. But where you have some that have cheated, countless other 2/3/4 star officers have handled their responsibilities honestly with integrity.

I suspect the charges of corruption in the minds of the general population stem from the issue of plot allocation. This is essentially where all charges of corruption lead to in my observation. Also in my view, unless the government puts certain guidelines on how these plots are to be used/disposed, you cannot fault an officer for profiting on them by selling either to commercial enterprises or privately. Until such restrictions are in place, it is neither illegal nor wrong to do so. However the general public does not understand this and all that it needs to be told is that the chaps in khaki are making hay while the sun shines and that too for the past many decades.

Some years ago, I looked into the general compensation of the senior military leadership and the equivalent civilians on the elected/bureaucratic side and the financial offsets/benefits were pretty much at par for the grade levels. The plots are being allotted to both sides and both are reaping financial benefits from them but the critique is specifically doled out against the servicemen only.

I am all for the CM of these officers if they are found to be involved. This is not unprecedented and since the corruption charges are during the time of service, it makes sense to try them out under the CM regulations. Generally, when officers internally are found to be involved in the such issues, the dirty laundry is kept internal and those involved reprimanded and punished.

 

[SQ8]

Question is.. even if they are found guilty.. very little action can be taken against the accused.
Most of them will fly out of the country.. hand over their properties to their heirs and spouses.
So even if the court orders XYZ to pay.. they wont have anything to pay out..

The COAS has made it clear that if convicted these officers will also stand court martial and their benefits and any privileges along with rank may be confiscated and removed.

 

[blain2]

Question is.. even if they are found guilty.. very little action can be taken against the accused.
Most of them will fly out of the country.. hand over their properties to their heirs and spouses.
So even if the court orders XYZ to pay.. they wont have anything to pay out..

The COAS has made it clear that if convicted these officers will also stand court martial and their benefits and any privileges along with rank may be confiscated and removed.

Not necessarily true. Adm Mansoor-ul-Haq was put on the ECL, which is the SOP now for all high profile cases, so flying out is no longer an option. Secondly, unlike the private citizens, properties of the services personnel are tracked. They can try to hand over the properties and assets to their family members, but it won't be an easy task. If they have off-shore accounts, that could be a challenge, but lets see what transpires.

 

[VCheng]

Cheng, the order came from COAS almost 2 years ago....this is not a new development

So why the two year delay?

Blain2: Thank you for your post.

Not necessarily true. Adm Mansoor-ul-Haq was put on the ECL, which is the SOP now for all high profile cases, so flying out is no longer an option. Secondly, unlike the private citizens, properties of the services personnel are tracked. They can try to hand over the properties and assets to their family members, but it won't be an easy task. If they have off-shore accounts, that could be a challenge, but lets see what transpires.

Isn't he in Texas these days?

 

[SQ8]

Not necessarily true. Adm Mansoor-ul-Haq was put on the ECL, which is the SOP now for all high profile cases, so flying out is no longer an option. Secondly, unlike the private citizens, properties of the services personnel are tracked. They can try to hand over the properties and assets to their family members, but it won't be an easy task. If they have off-shore accounts, that could be a challenge, but lets see what transpires.

Honestly though.. Mansour ul-Haq was tried for the wrong kick-backs..although the manner in which he was extradited to Pakistan is testament to the fact that justice served is justice served...

The actual thiefs are currently in power.. for their whipped cream in the Agosta 90B purchase..
from 890 million to over 1.2 Billion dollars in early 90's terms. He had nothing to do with that and was actually against it.
His actual misdemeanour's was buying Harpoons and Torpedos for the Dauphin SSK's which were rust buckets by that time..

Less said the better about the fallacy of buying the Mistral Missle and the fact the gentlemen responsible for the deal is still in the corridors of power throughout succesive governments.
A missle purchase that was pointless like anything.. bought to defend against an Israeli nuclear attack on our facilities.. As if the Israelis would ever even come close to the missle's range and not just pound these targets from 20nm off with Popeyes and the like.

The COAS directive is in the end.. a cruel joke to the games played with the Pakistani people by tose in power.

 

[blain2]

So why the two year delay?

Blain2: Thank you for your post.



Isn't he in Texas these days?

He answered the courts, made amends and then was allowed to plea and then leave Pakistan. He did not just run off (initially he did but was brought back.)

Honestly though.. Mansour ul-Haq was tried for the wrong kick-backs..although the manner in which he was extradited to Pakistan is testament to the fact that justice served is justice served...

The actual thiefs are currently in power.. for their whipped cream in the Agosta 90B purchase..
from 890 million to over 1.2 Billion dollars in early 90's terms. He had nothing to do with that and was actually against it.
His actual misdemeanour's was buying Harpoons and Torpedos for the Dauphin SSK's which were rust buckets by that time..

Less said the better about the fallacy of buying the Mistral Missle and the fact the gentlemen responsible for the deal is still in the corridors of power throughout succesive governments.
A missle purchase that was pointless like anything.. bought to defend against an Israeli nuclear attack on our facilities.. As if the Israelis would ever even come close to the missle's range and not just pound these targets from 20nm off with Popeyes and the like.

The COAS directive is in the end.. a cruel joke to the games played with the Pakistani people by tose in power.

Mistral issue was one of "use it or lose it" funds. There was money made available to the PAF after the PN purchased the same system for the Marines. Since the PAF had not bought anything to update/firm up the ADGE, this was thought to be a quick fix against low altitude threats (keep in mind that the bulk of the IAF then was not PGM delivery capable). Had the money not been used, the MoD would have ensured that PAF would not get the funds next fiscal year.

 

[VCheng]

He answered the courts, made amends and then was allowed to plea and then leave Pakistan. He did not just run off (initially he did but was brought back.)..............

The "plea" deal he was able to get created the distinct impression that justice was not served.

Same thing here with the NLC case: Not only must justice be done, it must be seen to have been done. A slap on the wrist will be worse than nothing at all, such is the importance of perception of deterrence, which is necessary for others to learn their lesson of not even trying to go down the path of corruption.

 

[blain2]

Plea deal was after him spending close to 2 years in jail, paying the fines and then the plea deal. He got squeezed pretty hard. More than most others known for pilfer and corruption in Pakistan.

I do not think the mood is as such where they will be let off with a slap on the wrist. If found guilty, the Army won't have any sympathy for them. This is always the case when the institution is found to be getting a bad name due to the unsanctioned acts of a few.

 

[batmannow]

Plea deal was after him spending close to 2 years in jail, paying the fines and then the plea deal. He got squeezed pretty hard. More than most others known for pilfer and corruption in Pakistan.

I do not think the mood is as such where they will be let off with a slap on the wrist. If found guilty, the Army won't have any sympathy for them. This is always the case when the institution is found to be getting a bad name due to the unsanctioned acts of a few.

Well, dear blain hope to see your great ideas comming true, but what happens if the same sick minded person, sitting as of our president, supported by our COAS , pump media with some secret files oF kammran kiyani?
Wht then our dear, COAS could be able to do about that?
Will he be able to pull the strings?
Will he,ill be able to cover up the credibility of the , most senior leader of our army?
Because thts the hard ball, comming in his way vry fast!
Cause after all the, refusal by COAS of following the americans line?
Thts the torpeedo which can hit him after or before , his russian official visit, thts where this NLC scandle will going to be important?
Anyway, the theam remains same even after musharaf, army is croupt , our nucks are unsafe, & we are supporting terrorists?
All the hard work done by army under musharaf, was just losted because he was nt a politician & PPP came from no where to loot , on a serious thought, its better that its about time , we should introduce political scince a subject in kakol at, least to find a GEN who can defend pakistan politicaly?