3 retired Generals to be court-martialed in NLC scam

[Xeric]

That question in this thread is not whether NLC is debt-free; it is whether it is corruption-free. That is the reason there is a court-martial being constituted.

No it was not corruption free.

i dont hesitate is saying that once i was posted in Karachi, a course-mate of mine who was serving in NLC was court martialing soldiers at the rate of 1 per month because of their involvement in embezzlements of petty nature.

Please note that NLC is the ONLY business where serving uniforms are employed (as shown by my slide in the reply to admanche) and hence the likelihood of soldiers behaving unlike soldiers.

As i always say, military is not corruption free, but it is the distance we try so hard to keep between military and civilian way of life that dont allow them 'opportunities' to do corruption.

i mean, if you going to make a soldier stand on Toll Points to collect Toll Tax, bhai he will do hancky panky, because he is not a God, only that when he is inside the military system, the system dont allow him do something stupid because of so many checks that we have in place and the constant grooming that we do for them.

Rate of corruption was more in NLC because the uniforms serving there were less of a soldiers and more of ordinary Pakistanis, but this was noted and corrective measures (like the one being discussed) taken.

Now a days we have a saying military, if you want to leave the Army quickly, get yourself posted to NLC, steal a penny and the next very day you would be at your home.

Nevertheless, NLC is one of the highest revenue generator

See, sometimes someone as useless a person as VCheng on DefPk can be useful too!

True that

 

[Bratva]

No, thank you.

You'll just know why in a while.


Haan..

Unfortunately this is poor Pakistan, unlike the country you belong to we dont have much of our official documents online. It took me 3 hours to find our Constitution online and downloaded it just to find out that the it was the Urdu version that too each page saved a a JPEG

Sure, you know you guys cant expect sympathy from me

Ok

So back to why i was thanking you VCheng.

i just found out why and how this Leader bhai was yapping about this 'section 16'.

Actually, to keep the things in perspective i must tell you all that when i used the acronym MPML for the first time on this thread, sir Leader might have gone curious so as what this balla is. So he does the next 'logical' thing; google it

And guess what he finds:

Section 16 of the Pakistan Military Law and Manual of Pakistan « PKPolitics Discuss

This is the second or third search result on Google if you search for Manual of Pakistan Military Law.

Now, when sir Leader probably visited the above mentioned link, his life changed, why? Because he exactly found something that he was looking for; something to bash the military.

Some SOB (i will call him that even on his face because he is a bloody liar and a hypocrite as he has deliberately given wrong info) namely 'KHAN_Sahib' revealed the following on that link:




So after reading this BS, sir Leader without inquiring anything further (typical Pakistani) came charging here and tried to teach Military Law to a serving fauji, especially when he was already busy court martialing two of his undercommand soldiers (bad luck Leader).

So this is how all this shyt happened, and i was wondering, until now, how this Section 16 had to do ANYTHING with this thread??!!

So thankyou VCheng for asking me about the MPML, i wasnt going to search it for you as i was surfing from a mobile, but then i did look for PPC as this is something that could have been available on the internet. Rest is history.

So before i end this lecture, i must say a few words about this AH KHAN_Sahib and his post.

1) The section 16 of MPML (not the facking Pakistan Military Law and Manual of Pakistan- PMLMP as sir Leader copy/pasted it just the same) DOES NOT deal with "Power and Authority to the Chief of Army Staff to fire any Army personnel without giving any reasons.".

2) It is Section 17 that deals with authority of the COAS to dismiss any person subject to the Act (that's to say someone upon whom Military Law is applicable - Military law is not applicable on civilians and those who have not been "Attested" i.e. not have been administered an Oath i.e. only Officers and Soldier of Pakistan Army have been administered an Oath), provided it has been established through a facking Court Martial that the accused has committed a crime that warrants a punishment that of 'Dismissal from Service'

i wish i could scan this section and paste it here, but i wont. These guys dont worth it and seriously i dont want to get into trouble because some PTI e-warrior.

3) Section 16 (the one referred to in Khan Sahib's and Leader's post) deals and states the authority of the Federal Government (not that of the COAS and thus proved k Khan Sahid bakwas karahy thay) to dismiss anybody subject to the Act (refer above). i.e. If a general has to be removed from service, then it is this Section of MPML/PPC basing upon which the Court conducting the inquiry has the authority to dismiss him from service.

It is just like as i said in my previous post that MPML gives the definition of the crime and defines the powers of Officers to award a certain punishment, why? Because only the Competent Authority can award a particular punishment, not every tom, dick and harry. You have to quote the authority from the MPML before awarding a punishment that yes, you in the capacity of the appointment/designation you are serving in, you have the authority as per page 123, section ABC, Rule XYZ of MPML to award that particular punishment and hence the MPML gives out in detail these authorities which the likes of Khan Sahib twisted and fooled many idiots---> Further explanation:

Whereas the bloody civilians think that there is just one thing known as a Court Martial, what they dont know is that there are 4 kind of Court Martial, namely;

Summary Court Martial (SCM)

District Court Martial (DCM)

Field General Court Martial (FGCM)

General Court Martial (GCM)



Now each of them is a court martial, but they differ in two aspects;

1) The amount of (maximum) punishment that can be awarded through them.

2) The Officer entitled to convene/sanction a court martial.

That's to say, a SCM can only award a maximum punishment of Dismissal from Service (to Soldiers ONLY) and a maximum of 1 year of civil jail (to soldiers ONLY), and it can be conducted by minimum an officer of the rank of a Captain, provided the CO has given him written permission and sanction, even then the final authority of signing the punishment is the Brigade Commander (Brigadier), and not even the CO (Lt Col), unlike what Leader and this bloody Khan Sahib tried to portray.

Now if a CO wants or in case the crime committed by the soldier is so grave that he wants that the soldiers should get punishment which is more than 1 year civil jail, then he cant do anything about it i.e. he cant give this (more) punishment through a SCM, rather he must get sanction for conducting a DCM which in case would be granted by the Corps Commander (not even the GOC) and after the permission has been given, even then atleast an Officer of the rank of a Full Colonel or a Brigadier will conduct the (District) Court Martial, and not the CO (Lt Col).

That's to say, a CO dont have the power to convene a DCM.

So now you guys can well imagine who can conduct a FGCM and then the GCM.

And hence once again, the need to spell out the authorities who can award punishments or as per Khan Sahib/Leader fire 'anyone' without 'any reason'.

Point to be noted is that the inquiry may still be conducted by a Lt Col or a Brigadier, but the punishment awarding authority would be the Corp Commander or the COAS (Section 17) or Min of Def or in case of higher issues; the Federal Government (Section 16).

Unlike the Jungle Raj that sir Leader and his PTI wants to impose in Pakistan, there are laws that are followed in military.

One more thing, after someone has been awarded a punishment through a court martial, he still reserves the right to appeal to a senior court for review of the court martial like it happens in any other civilian court.

As per law, the 'Form of Appeal' (through which the individual can forward his appeal) is supposed to be handed over to the accused atleast 12 hours before the court martial announces him the punishment.

i remember a soldier who had committed a murder was to be sentence Umer Kaid was set free by the same very FGCM which was supposed to award him punishment just because the accused was not given the bloody 'Form of Appeal' atleast 12 hours before the proceeding of the Court Martial.

So guess what the dude did, right at the time when his was being sentenced, he raised an objection and said that he has not been handed over the Form of Appeal and thus cannot be awarded any punishment.

He was right!

His lawyer (which is known a Friend of Accused in military language) played it and he was given a go home free card right there and then!! Just like it happens in a Civilian Court if some stupidity is done (cases against Zardari are a case in point).

He then was arrested again, the entire Court was replaced and the entire proceedings/inquiry of Court Martial was done again and then he was awarded the punishment, unlike the Jungle Raj as presented by Leader and the bloody Khan Sahib.

So, the bottom line is, please be wary of rascals like Khan Sahibs (and his disciples) and listen to the ones who has actual knowledge about something.

There's a reason i get angry on these guys. i have conducted quite a few court martials during my service, and i know how painful they are. i have dismissed soldiers from service, i have sent people to jail and i have demoted people, so in a sense i have seen the other side of this life.

i have seen people begging for mercy, i have seen people weeping over their crimes, i have seen people (including Officers) being sentenced to lifetime in jail just because he unknowingly did something and was caught, but still the justice had to be served.

You know that this particular punishment might be more than what he deserved, but then in the interest of discipline and to make an example for the rest of the unit so that no other can think of screwing up again, one has to give exemplary punishment and believe me it's painful.

But when idiots try to act smart and think they know more and try to argue with someone who has killed, carried bodies of torn up men, have gone through the experience of making and ruining the lives of ordinary people, then the things get complicated!

Let me ask you guys, how many of you has selected people for a job which you know is going to feed him for a life time?

How many of you said no to someone knowing that he has worked so hard for it (refer ISSB)?

How many of you has said; no he cant make a Lt Col from Major, thus booking his career?

How many of you have made a decision which resulted in the deaths of 3, 4, may be 10 people?

How many of you have made decisions which resulted in saving the lives of 50 people?

Yes, you might have hired or fired sweepers, maids and your drivers, but none of you have fired someone and stamped him with the phrase; 'Unfit for employment in Civilian Life'. Meaning thereby, bhoka mar jayega bechara.

You may have made decisions which might have brought the company you serve in a fortune, but it never would have been anything like saving an actual life, or was it?

How many of you here have snatched the bread and butter of a man who has served for 20 years in an institution?

But you had to do it. You had to do it because justice demanded so. You had to do it because that's what you were paid for to do.

Us soldier ya officer ka khayal nahi ata when you are screwing someone, but uskay bachon ka khayal zaror ata hai aik dafa, but then justice is not served on emotions, it is done to make examples.

Now a Justice of High Court doing this might not be touched, because that's his only job, and he deals with such cases as part of his livelihood. But it do leave a mark on our lives. And that's why we see life differently, no wonder one who has seen people getting blown up is allergic to bullshyt.

And then people come here with a tool known as Laptop, sit in their stinking couches and try to narrate stories to me?

They try to present a picture which is totally opposite to what happens in reality?

Meter to out hota hai na bhai phir!

Just out of curiosity, Your post give the impression that ordinary soldiers and officers of middle tier is court martial-led for negligence and corruption. Any example of brigadier or above level high ranking official being court martialed?

 

[Leader]

Link please?

check private message in a minute,

its on intra

 

[Hyperion]

purpose of reinstating retired high ranked officers is to protect them and save the shame of saving the bloody civilian courts...

Very true! Civilian courts are out for blood. Well, Xeric will learn in due time.

 

[Leader]

Vcheng cannot message you, not allowed and its not accessible from home.. cannot link you up...like i said it was probably on intra but will try to get it copy from there and put it on some blog and share.

 

[Xeric]

Just out of curiosity, Your post give the impression that ordinary soldiers and officers of middle tier is court martial-led for negligence and corruption. Any example of brigadier or above level high ranking official being court martialed?

First of all aap janab nay meri 3 pager post ko quote kiya or uska jawab 2 lines mai diya, is kliye meri taraf sy khiraj-e-tehseen kabool karain!

Second, 'ordinary soldiers and officers of middle tier is court martial-led for negligence', but not for corruption. Mot unless they are serving inside the military, because there isnt much that they can embezzle. Yes, if they are in some organization like NLC, may be then they can do some hanky panky and get caught.

Because while serving in a unit or a HQ the maximum thing that one can steal is rations. The maximum amount of rations that are stored in a unit will amount to not more than 2 lac rupees. For these rations to be sold by the corruptee, he atleast would be required to involve 5 individuals, most of the time even more. Now, first distribute 2 lac rupees among 5 you get less than Rs 50K each, even a Lt today earns Rs 35K per month, so no one will be stupid enough to go for this option. Second, keeping a secret among 5 dudes is difficult more than you know, Third, if all the ration of the unit is missing, someone is going to screw each and every one through the entire chain of command, so it would be idiotic to do it.

And thus, people dont do corruption. Bhai if i had to do corruption, so i will first ensure that i am getting a cut of atleast 50-60 carores, because while doing so i will be endangering my nukari, a nukari which will otherwise give me halal rizk of carore of rupees including my retirement benefits (the plot and stuff).

For your second part, well if captains and majors dont steal rations and fuel, how do you think a brigadier or senior will do the same while serving in the Army?

Because i have told this a 100 times that no one in the Army including those in Budget Directorate get to see 'real' public money (defence budget). So, if the system is such that the 'real' money is out of your reach, how would you embezzle it?

So mor mora k wohe rations and fuel, right?

And now yes, if you are dealing with something like in case of NLC may be one can embezzle something while sitting at the top slot, but you have seen what has happened to them.

So if no brigadier has been court martialed, then instead of looking at the glass of water as half empty, you should see it as half full that no senior officer while serving inside the Army has been involved in corruption.

Moreover, there have been court martials of senior officers but not because of corruption rather negligence or poor performance during operations or mishandling of some task. And as per the international understanding of militaries, military punishments awarded through administrative actions are not revealed out of the military.

This is not what i say, but as you guys probably wont believe me and may be believe the goras, so you guys can google for Uniform Code of Military Justice (UCMJ) of the US military (equivalent to our MPML) which also states the same that a military is not supposed to reveal punishments awarded through administrative actions, and hence you dont hear about officers getting court martialed everyday in the our military.

But as i know it already, you guys wont believe it and carry on with your rants, for which i care a tosh.

 

[alibaz]

NLC is said to be white elephant

You wouldn't have said this had you read the first post. Here is is extract

The Director General NLC Major General Junaid told the committee that the department has retrieved loan of Rs 9.5 billion and this year it earned a profit of Rs 6.5 billion. He said the NLC was no more transporting goods of Afghan transit trade which is a business of Rs 100 billion. He said if the government so desires, they can get this contract once again.

Member of the Committee Hamid Yar Hiraj said that smuggling has increased after the Afghan Transit trade contract was given to the private sector.

Source: http://www.defence.pk/forums/pakist...s-court-martialed-nlc-scam.html#ixzz265YiybP6

 

[VCheng]

No it was not corruption free.

...............

Your point is well taken Sir, but I was referring to the topic of this thread: mega-corruption by senior officers.

 

[Xeric]

Your point is well taken Sir, but I was referring to the topic of this thread: mega-corruption by senior officers.

Yes, what about it?

They probably have done it and are going to face the music for it. Now what, ishtihar lagaye jaian kaya?

 

[VCheng]

Yes, what about it?

They probably have done it and are going to face the music for it. Now what, ishtihar lagaye jaian kaya?

Actually, yes, Sir:

"Not only must Justice be done; it must also be seen to be done." - The Sussex Justices.

Sari duniyah ko pata chalna chahiye keh insaaf hua hey. Whoever did it was punished for it by the appropriate court of law.

 

[alibaz]

Very true! Civilian courts are out for blood. Well, Xeric will learn in due time.

No sir, what blood they have sucked while sou moto on Karachi situation, just topi drama, lot of tickers and beepers and no decision. What blood they sucked in Haj scandal where they put a minister behind the bars for 17 months and awarded him bail cause case didnot progress further due to availability of a more media attraction contempt case against Gillani and now against his successor. Why don't this court draw blood in Arsalan case which resulted into severe contempt against sitting CJ by Riaz Malik. Why don't they call and screw Faisal Abdi for contempt.
This court has interfered in executive which resulted into such contempts that a guy like Abdi abuses courts and CJ but courts are deaf and dumb over his allegations. History will decide that this court exceeded its limits.

 

[Hyperion]

No sir, what blood they have sucked while sou moto on Karachi situation, just topi drama, lot of tickers and beepers and no decision. What blood they sucked in Haj scandal where they put a minister behind the bars for 17 months and awarded him bail cause case didnot progress further due to availability more interesting contempt case against Gillani and now against his successor. What don't this court draw blood in Arsalan case which resulted into severe contempt against sitting CJ by Riaz Malik. Why don't they call and screw Faisal Abdi for contempt.
This court has interfered in executive which resulted into such contempts that a guy like Abdi abuses courts and CJ but courts are deaf and dumb over his allegations. History will decide that this court exceeded its limits.

Let me try to quote something in Urdu. (my urdu isn't that good, therefore, please correct me if necessary)

"Avay ka ava hi bigra hua hai!"

 

[Xeric]

Actually, yes, Sir:

"Not only must Justice be done; it must also be seen to be done." - The Sussex Justices.

Sari duniyah ko pata chalna chahiye keh insaaf hua hey. Whoever did it was punished for it by the appropriate court of law.

No one is against what you have said.

i think that's exactly what is happening, except that attention seekers have found a way to satiate their lust by sensationalizing the issue.

i mean their first crib was; 'hey look, generals have been reinstated...ha..ha..ha..funny right?'

Even a retard can understand that this was coming from those who have no idea at all of how militaries work. They had no idea that it is VERY VERY normal to reinstate men if they are either to be decorated or punished. Logic, well the simplest of it is, as i have mentioned already, MPML is lagoo only on serving soldiers.

So when this 'crib; of their was facepalmed, they shifted over to another.

See, they will be courtmartialed because they want to save them from the civilian courts. Now that's the stupidest of all.

We all know the worth of our courts. Aj kal ziada hushyari aye hoi hai, otherwise i can name Honorable Justices who have been doing faisalay not by taking money, but furniture and house hold items. Seriously, dont laugh, there was this Session Judge who would say, ok you, yes you, bring me a fridge and your culprits goes free, and you bring me a table set. Lame, right?

Then they must know that military punishments are stricter then those in the civil.

Then they must also know that it is very normal that uniformed culprits are (normally) always tried by military courts, if not then what's the fun in having the MPML and things like UCMJ? So there is nothing anokha in trying these guys through a court martial.

And then lastly, if a bargain takes place (which can also take place in a civilian court, rather there is a stronger possibility if they are tried through a civilian court for this), there's nothing to be alarmed about it.

Do i need to remind them that almost every corruption case processed by NAB was prebargained? i mean lets say a dude has embezzled 1 billion rupees, so the dude says , ok i'll give back those 1 billion rupees alongwith fine (as decided by the court) and then i should be let go of. i ask them, they should give a name in the civilian side who was caught and tried for corruption and was sent to jail by NAB?

Every big shot was freed after he had paid back the looted money and the fine, only those jinka koi wali waris nahi tha they were jailed. So why the bitching, moaning and complaining in this particular case?

Mazay lainay ka shok jai shayed?

Now i dont say that these guys should be spared, but then if that's how things work in Pakistan, so bhai there is something wrong with Pakistan, correct it, dont screw with the military proceedings.

 

[BATMAN]

Rangers murder: Aziz, others acquitted

I wonder where this hate of Pak army, will lead to Taliban sympathizers.

I see a lot of those in this thread, who share common objective with TTP.

 

[Xeric]

Civilian courts, fetay mo tuwada.

What? Charge me for contempt of court, great google for Xeric.

i wonder why dont these mongers say anything about this?


Oh wait, for them Sir Aziz is a (burkha porrsh) hero.