27 Feb 19: PAF shot down two Indian aircrafts inside Pakistani airspace: DG ISPR

[Myth_buster_1]

you only claim twobut show evidence of one.
show us evidence of any second shot down .
and answer the fact . that you claim you used only JF-17 and Mirage but no F-16 then explain to us AIM-120 part in India.

and before posting blah, blah , blah check with who you are talking.
and I don't care how many you could shot down ,9 or 90 it's mnot matter wht mater is that you only provide evidence for one so its only Mig-21 no matter how much insult you are sending toward me unless you provide fact that point to something else.

JF-17 and Mirages were used to strike inside India
F-16s were used within air space of Pakistan and they fired AMRAAMs.

 

[masterchief_mirza]

Or there was no aim 120 and India showed a forgery after all you claimed you used jf-17 not f-16 and I believe only your f-16 use aim-120.

This was an old claim (that f16 was not involved), made ostensibly to avoid any controversy over its usage in a combat scenario against India due to ambiguous terms and conditions attached to our acquisition of f16s from USA. Since it was decided that its usage in a defensive posture was not in breach of said t&c's, Pakistan has accepted its use. As far a I am aware, both the mig21 and the su30 were shot down by f16s. You may now safely drop this particular enquiry.

The missile that was revealed in the Indian presser by BS Dhanoa was indeed an amraam missile fired by PAF that detonated in Indian territory. The most plausible explanation for this is that it hit an aircraft. Since the missile was recovered in India, it follows that it struck an aircraft in Indian airspace. If a Pakistani jet was hit in India, it would have been on display in Delhi by now. If they have no target to hit, such missiles do not detonate. Feel free to look back at earlier posts in this thread. It's all there, along with further technical evidence that is beyond my amateur level of understanding.

 

[ziaulislam]

you only claim twobut show evidence of one.
show us evidence of any second shot down .
and answer the fact . that you claim you used only JF-17 and Mirage but no F-16 then explain to us AIM-120 part in India.

and before posting blah, blah , blah check with who you are talking.
and I don't care how many you could shot down ,9 or 90 it's mnot matter wht mater is that you only provide evidence for one so its only Mig-21 no matter how much insult you are sending toward me unless you provide fact that point to something else.

1. in eyes of neutral observer su30, kill will remain a claim, not a confirmed kill..PAF claims is, however, supported by circumstantial evidence including the fact that IAF back down, AIM120 superiority, radar data, mi17 on a SAR mission and an initial news report in India media/eye witness on the ground stating that in addition to helicopter a jet was shotdown
2. Orignal operation "swift retort" didn't had any F16s, F16s were simply like rests of the airforce on air defence duties..the operation itself was conducted by mirages3/5 escorted by jf17s (back up ammunition support) and SAAB AWECs along with jammers from "blinders"

 

[El Sidd]

you only claim twobut show evidence of one.
show us evidence of any second shot down .
and answer the fact . that you claim you used only JF-17 and Mirage but no F-16 then explain to us AIM-120 part in India.

and before posting blah, blah , blah check with who you are talking.
and I don't care how many you could shot down ,9 or 90 it's mnot matter wht mater is that you only provide evidence for one so its only Mig-21 no matter how much insult you are sending toward me unless you provide fact that point to something else.

please accept ghoribs apology. he must have mistaken your flags. please be merciful with him

 

[Hack-Hook]

JF-17 and Mirages were used to strike inside India
F-16s were used within air space of Pakistan and they fired AMRAAMs.

so you agree to insian claims that you used AMRAAM to hit their planes .now if you only could prove to me it was two planet not only one

As far a I am aware, both the mig21 and the su30 were shot down by f16s. You may now safely drop this particular enquiry.

the problem is that you only have prove for one mig-21 and AIM-120 does have a self destruct mechanism

Orignal operation "swift retort" didn't had any F16s, F16s were simply like rests of the airforce on air defence duties..the operation itself was conducted by mirages3/5 escorted by jf17s (back up ammunition support) and SAAB AWECs along with jammers from "blinders"

that explain it

in eyes of neutral observer su30, kill will remain a claim, not a confirmed kill..PAF claims is, however, supported by circumstantial evidence including the fact that IAF back down, AIM120 superiority, radar data, mi17 on a SAR mission and an initial news report in India media/eye witness on the ground stating that in addition to helicopter a jet was shotdown

there is so many reason that the missile debries falling in India .
the people may seen many thing but did they provided any evidence of the second crash , did satelites recorded a crash site ?
and the india news may be many thing , did they provide many evidence ? just 2 days ago there was rumor on media that Sardar Qaani have been assasinated in syria , well itturned out to be some hoax

 

[alee92nawaz]

you only claim twobut show evidence of one.
show us evidence of any second shot down .
and answer the fact . that you claim you used only JF-17 and Mirage but no F-16 then explain to us AIM-120 part in India.

and before posting blah, blah , blah check with who you are talking.
and I don't care how many you could shot down ,9 or 90 it's mnot matter wht mater is that you only provide evidence for one so its only Mig-21 no matter how much insult you are sending toward me unless you provide fact that point to something else.

First of all tell why do you indiots like to pose as white people? Also that amraam is proof enough if you want to believe. Or just believe in the mig 21 kill only. That's enough. You mess with us? We'll hurt you bad. That too in your own airspace and broad daylight. Sit down now.

 

[Myth_buster_1]

so you agree to insian claims that you used AMRAAM to hit their planes .now if you only could prove to me it was two planet not only one

wtf r u talking about?
AMRAAM has over 100km range meaning it does not have to enter inside india to shot iaf down.

 

[ziaulislam]

so you agree to insian claims that you used AMRAAM to hit their planes .now if you only could prove to me it was two planet not only one


the problem is that you only have prove for one mig-21 and AIM-120 does have a self destruct mechanism


that explain it


there is so many reason that the missile debries falling in India .
the people may seen many thing but did they provided any evidence of the second crash , did satelites recorded a crash site ?
and the india news may be many thing , did they provide many evidence ? just 2 days ago there was rumor on media that Sardar Qaani have been assasinated in syria , well itturned out to be some hoax

that's why its called claim, not a kill..

as far as open-source info is, aim doesn't has a self destruct sequence..most AAM don't ..it has to do with missile flight time unpredictability(but I can be wrong)

there are plenty of eye witnesses, at the site of crash India media personnel asks a Kashmiri whether anything else crashed and he said another fighter jet has crashed near by..

finding an AIM120 so quickly, eyewitness and PAF claim that they have radar data (given PAF had even AWECs in sky with most comprehensive battle view) i would say the odds are really high that su 30 was at least hit by an SU30 with likely crash..

this contributed to stunning of IAF and would explain lack of resposne

regardless the summary PROVEN HARD FACTS of feb FIASCO ARE

1. India missed its targets,
2. shot down its own mi17,
3. its airforce was openly challenged and its sites were bombed,
4. lost ATLEAST 1 jet was shotdown and had a POW paraded..

a total and shameful defeat

 

[Cookie Monster]

In war unproven claims and counter claims are quite common. Also in fog of war, it is sometimes possible that false or unverified news start to circulate. For example, on 27th Feb ISPR and Pak PM claimed to have captured 3 Indian pilots only to retract it hours later when they could only produce only 1 pilot.

SU 30 MKI is most modern and potent aircraft in indian Airforce inventory so a scalp will boost PAF morale.

The objective of Operation Swift Retort was to retaliate IAF strike on 26th Feb and salvage some honour.

Salvage some honor? So if enemy country's airforce carries out attacks on ur territory then honor is violated and it must be responded? Then why was there no response from India when PAF attacked Indian territory? According to ur own argument it would mean u have no honor.

The reality is that both India and Pak can carry out air attacks against each other at any time...either with stand off weapons...or where terrain(such as a mountainous area) allows to sneak in quite a distance without being detected or even in some areas where the radar coverage might be lacking. It's no amazing feat...and nothing can be done about it by either side...not in the short term anyways. What matters is how u respond to ur enemy's incursions...and we both know that only one side responded

PAF launched a large package of aircraft- F 16, Mirage and JF17. Mirage and JF 17 were to attempt attack against military installations while F16s were to give air cover and draw IAF CAPs to PAF dominated killing zones.

PAF will do whatever it must to get the job done...if IAF didn't expect it then it's their failure. I keep seeing Indians bringing it up over and over that PAF had a numerical advantage and what not...whatever happened to the previous showboating by u guys about IAF's numerical advantage? Moreover if India detected PAF jets on its radar then IAF should've roughly known how many PAF jets are incoming...they are not stealth jets. Why wasn't an appropriate number of IAF jets were scrambled to respond? If there wasn't a sufficient quantity of IAF jets present to respond in a timely manner(meaning they were too far away to get there in time) then why even bother to respond half heartedly? Ending up being called AMRAAM dodgers and telling Abhinandan to flow cold...should've let Abhinandan sip on his tea safe on base in India.

I have never seen any airforce respond to incursions by enemy jets...only to get up in the air and then bail once they see it's too many enemy jets for them to take on...does IAF really have to send it's pilots up to visually count?(rhetorical question)

PAF JF 17 and Mirage managed to drop weapons in vicinity on Indian military installations- whether targets were missed by design or PAF was forced to miss the target when challenged by IAF is a moot question.

They released videos...these were guided bombs...the second pilot in the PAF Mirages were guiding these bombs. If they had the time to guide them near the target(but not on it) then they also had enough time to guide it on to the target itself. The video footage of the bomb's guidance was made public along with google maps imagery to show exactly how it all happened(which is much more than what IAF has provided).

F16s fired (India claims 5–6) few AMRAAMs at Indian aircraft with 1 confirmed kill of Indian MiG21, incidentally PAF denied involvement of F16 and attributed kill to JF17 but was forced to come clean when India showed debris on AMRAAM to media.

No Pak was not forced to admit anything. Pak said that no F16s were used in the operation...which is entirely correct. NO F16 WAS USED IN THE OPERATION...Operation Swift Retort involved the use of Mirages and JF17 to deliver the package...F16s weren't a part of it. F16s were carrying out CAPs and only got involved once IAF jets were airborne.

So far PAF has been caught deceiving twice: 1) IAF pilot in custody 2) Use of F16 and AMRAAMs

As for 1...
IAF pilot was in custody...not at all a lie. The only thing about the 2 pilots confusion was just a miscommunication. Abhinandan was captured and then transferred to a hospital...this was thought of as one in custody and one admitted to the hospital.

For 2...see above.

How about now u explain all the myriad of Indian lies?...all of which have been thoroughly debunked by neutral third party sources...even very pro India and anti Pak ppl like Christine Fair aren't willing to back India on such lies.

With no physical proof like SU 30 wreckage or any photo/video evidence, the claim of PAF is unverified and unfounded.

U mean just like Indian claim of shooting down an F16? At least PAF pilot is owning up to his shooting of an IAF Su30...Abhinandan has yet to publicly claim his.

In 21st century with mobile phones in every nook and corner of Kashmir it is impossible to hide an incident of such magnitude.

Yup...and yet there were no such mass funeral held for "300 terrorists" that were "killed" by IAF. Like u said...in this era of everyone having mobile phones it is impossible to hide such things. No such videos surfaced for that "destroyed building" either...that was supposed to be the target...
...as for Indian claim that Pak must have repaired it...no one recorded any videos of debris being transported out and construction material/workers going in.

In past, there has been instances where Pak made false claims like

1. No involvement of army regulars in Kargil conflict
2. News of liberation of Dhaka on 16th December 1971 was hidden from population of Pakistan with call to “War till Victory” on December 17th 1971 in national newspapers.

The only correct thing in ur post is ur username bcuz from what u wrote...it does seem u r drunk. I'm fascinated by how logic works only one way for u guys...anyways keep on being delusional...it's good for us.

 

[Aliph Ahmed]

you only claim twobut show evidence of one.
show us evidence of any second shot down .
and answer the fact . that you claim you used only JF-17 and Mirage but no F-16 then explain to us AIM-120 part in India.

and before posting blah, blah , blah check with who you are talking.
and I don't care how many you could shot down ,9 or 90 it's mnot matter wht mater is that you only provide evidence for one so its only Mig-21 no matter how much insult you are sending toward me unless you provide fact that point to something else.

By your logic, India also did not conduct or miserably failed at Balakot Strike that they claim to have successfully targeted as to date India has provided NO (zero) proof of Balakot Strikes or shooting down F16 Evidence!

Is that a Yes?

 

[Cookie Monster]

@Hack-Hook read post 9661 about the circumstances in which F16 was used...F16s were conducting CAPs...they weren't part of the strike package. The strike package consisted of JF17 and Mirages that carried out attacks inside India.

As for u asking for wreckage and proof of Su30 MKI kill...it didn't crash in Pak territory. Therefore no wreckage can be shown. However I do remember seeing a post somewhere by @dbc where he said that according to some reports an IAF Su30 MKI did crash land. Whether or not u believe it is up to u.
Here...I found it...
Operation Swift Retort by Alan Warnes

 

[Zowais]

We understand that our neighbours are interested only in how many were shotdown. However, we, in Pakistan prefer to differentiate among airliners, friendlies and 'needed to be shotdown' etc. before we press the button. We chose to shoot down two and decided not to go for the rest. Nations fight, win and lose. Hardly, one finds examples in history, a 3 times bigger adversery celebrating how they dodged and fled, deserting their fellows. Those who needed to get the message, received it well on 27/02/20. Alhamdolillah. If one chooses not to understand, we understand.

you only claim twobut show evidence of one.
show us evidence of any second shot down .
and answer the fact . that you claim you used only JF-17 and Mirage but no F-16 then explain to us AIM-120 part in India.

and before posting blah, blah , blah check with who you are talking.
and I don't care how many you could shot down ,9 or 90 it's mnot matter wht mater is that you only provide evidence for one so its only Mig-21 no matter how much insult you are sending toward me unless you provide fact that point to something else.

 

[Hack-Hook]

First of all tell why do you indiots like to pose as white people? Also that amraam is proof enough if you want to believe. Or just believe in the mig 21 kill only. That's enough. You mess with us? We'll hurt you bad. That too in your own airspace and broad daylight. Sit down now.

So you have no proof and resort to insulying .
and that Amraam is not proof of anything , do you knew the part of the Slow TOR-M1 that we fired at Ukrain passenger jet fell how much away from the crash site , now consider how it can be for a fast moving AMRAAM that is at least 3 time faster.

wtf r u talking about?
AMRAAM has over 100km range meaning it does not have to enter inside india to shot iaf down.

Did India claimed you enter their airspace , they claimed you shoot their airplane by AIM-120 and F-16 you at first claimed it was JF-17 that it seems later you agreed with Indian version.

by the way how you reach to the conclusion that I said you guys entered Indian Air space ?

as far as open-source info is, aim doesn't has a self destruct sequence..most AAM don't ..it has to do with missile flight time unpredictability(but I can be wrong)

there are plenty of eye witnesses, at the site of crash India media personnel asks a Kashmiri whether anything else crashed and he said another fighter jet has crashed near by..

the question , why there is no atelite imagery of that. ? the eye witness may have mistaken something else

finding an AIM120 so quickly, eyewitness and PAF claim that they have radar data (given PAF had even AWECs in sky with most comprehensive battle view) i would say the odds are really high that su 30 was at least hit by an SU30 with likely crash..

India also provided Radar data of an Pakistani F-16 vanishs from screen that it prove anything at all . do you believe on their claims according to it ?

regardless the summary PROVEN HARD FACTS of feb FIASCO ARE

1. India missed its targets,
2. shot down its own mi17,
3. its airforce was openly challenged and its sites were bombed,
4. lost ATLEAST 1 jet was shotdown and had a POW paraded..

a total and shameful defeat

I agree to that and their fighting strategy was a total meh , worthy of primary school child planning not a military planner. they were inconsistent , didn't used the assets acoording to situation ,didnt plan well , failed to use surprise element . failed to do even bomving a defenceles building sitting out there . thats really beg for shake down in chain of command

They released videos...these were guided bombs...the second pilot in the PAF Mirages were guiding these bombs. If they had the time to guide them near the target(but not on it) then they also had enough time to guide it on to the target itself. The video footage of the bomb's guidance was made public along with google maps imagery to show exactly how it all happened(which is much more than what IAF has provided).

there cn be many reason for that , it may have been just a warning , the equipment could be faulty , the pilot may had to pull out due to enemy fire, ..... , do you have the video that can narrow the posiblities a lot.

No Pak was not forced to admit anything. Pak said that no F16s were used in the operation...which is entirely correct. NO F16 WAS USED IN THE OPERATION...Operation Swift Retort involved the use of Mirages and JF17 to deliver the package...F16s weren't a part of it. F16s were carrying out CAPs and only got involved once IAF jets were airborne.

they were in the mission , they were not gave the bombing part , they were tasked to protect the bombing planes from enemy fighters. but nevertheless they were part of the operation.

By your logic, India also did not conduct or miserably failed at Balakot Strike that they claim to have successfully

I already said Indian claims about the bombing and F-16 are just face saving and their performances in planning the operation was at best, what you expect from a primary school kid to plan. they nearly failed in all metrics.

As for u asking for wreckage and proof of Su30 MKI kill...it didn't crash in Pak territory. Therefore no wreckage can be shown. However I do remember seeing a post somewhere by @dbc where he said that according to some reports an IAF Su30 MKI did crash land. Whether or not u believe it is up to u.
Here...I found it...

the question why there is satellite imagery about anything else but non about that Su-30MKI and as you see again no proof provided in that post

 

[Cookie Monster]

there cn be many reason for that , it may have been just a warning , the equipment could be faulty , the pilot may had to pull out due to enemy fire, ..... , do you have the video that can narrow the posiblities a lot.

Dude where have u been? There were threads after threads on this topic...even now it's ongoing...u expect me to dig through to spoonfeed u these things?

Try googling for those videos...and no there were no reasons such as faulty munitions or anything...they were dropped near the targets to send a message that we can light u up any time and day. There was no reason to blow up anything bcuz Indian attacks on Pak's side of the border failed to hit anything...it would've been unnecessary escalation.

they were in the mission , they were not gave the bombing part , they were tasked to protect the bombing planes from enemy fighters. but nevertheless they were part of the operation.

They were not part of the strike package...the strike package(consisting of JF17 and Mirages) crossed the LoC into IOK to bomb...F16s were patrolling the Pakistani skies ready to respond to IAF jets if they got airborne.

the question why there is satellite imagery about anything else but non about that Su-30MKI and as you see again no proof provided in that post

Do u know how satellite imagery works? It's not like satellites are recording 4K video of every second on every part of the globe. Satellites periodically take pictures of different parts of earth from time to time...therefore u can potentially see things that happen over long term...
...an example would be US being able to see China building artificial islands in South China Sea.

Regardless...I don't really care if u or others here remain unconvinced. Personally I'm also treating it as a claim so far...however I still think that a Su30 MKI was hit(whether it survived and crash landed or got completely destroyed...I don't know)...
...the reasons being...
1) AMRAAM is a potent and proven weapon. Additionally AMRAAM wreckage was shown by IAF...I don't know of any examples where it explodes without having hit the target. So it must've hit something to have exploded like that.
2) PAF had AWACS monitoring the whole situation throughout the operation...Su30 MKI has a huge RCS(especially when it's loaded with weapons). It must've been detected on various radars such as ground radars, F16s/JF17 radars, Erieye AWACS radars...so it makes it highly unlikely that all these radars were "fooled" somehow.
4) PAF was jamming and intercepting IAF radio communications. In addition to seeing what they saw on radar that led them to believe Su30 MKI was downed...they could have heard some radio chatter that further led them to make such a claim.

And last but not least...dbc here has said something along those lines too...that a Su30 MKI was hit...as per some reports(I provided u a link to his post).

So it's very unlikely that u will ever get to see the wreckage since it didn't fall on Pak's side...all one can do is evaluate the credibility of the claim...which is what I have done above...and I'm leaning towards it being likely that a Su30 MKI was shot down.

 

[Hack-Hook]

They were not part of the strike package...the strike package(consisting of JF17 and Mirages) crossed the LoC into IOK to bomb...F16s were patrolling the Pakistani skies ready to respond to IAF jets if they got airborne.

the mission is not just strike package